Concept Thugs/FF advice?


Berzerker_NA

 

Posted

A long long time ago, back in Issue 0, I created an Illusion/Force Field character. He uses the Fighting Power Pool (all four powers), he has the Leadership powers... and he does not have any of the Ally-target bubbles, on purpose. He is certainly a concept character.

Now, thanks to a roleplaying challenge by a friend of mine, I am creating a villainous version of him. I know I can just create an Ill/FF and jump sides, but that's too boring.

Since 'Illusion' is not something that exists on the red side, I'm left with Forcefields. So I was looking at Corruptors and Masterminds trying to figure out the best way to emulate him.

Luckily, he's already supposed to be a former gang member, so the Thugs powerset made sense to me. Thus, I'm considering a Thugs/FF character.

I'll probably drop the Fighting pool, and just pick up the gun skills. 'Cause, well, why not? If he's going to go thug, might as well go full-on thug. Mostly I wanted it for Boxing and Kick, 'cause that's the sort of guy he is. But as a villain, might as well go with the lethal force, right?

Keeping Leadership seems to make sense.

I still want to skip the single-target bubbles. Having zero single-target bubbles wasn't an issue as a Controller; but as a Mastermind, now I'll have pets to take care of. How badly will I be hurting myself if I do this? Any advice on the best way to approach this character, given these stipulations?


The game ends at 50. Smilegasm
Do not ever give Mind Control a pet. We need more control sets without pets.
My characters are not "toons". They are all project characters, though.
Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue

 

Posted

I'd imagine Dispersion Bubble + Maneuvers + Enforcer's Maneuvers can still get your pets to the soft cap, maybe with some 5% Def IOs for your pets (I haven't done the math). I assume your concept still allows for Dispersion Bubble.

Thugs is pretty strong; it'd be hard to gimp it with sufficiently protected minions, even with your secondary pulling very little weight. You'll need to slot your personal attacks heavily for EndRdx (2-3 SO's worth) to have any hope of using them regularly, though. Mastermind attacks eat a ton of End.

As for how it'll play, read up on any Thugs guide and follow most of their advice for your primary.Your personal attacks will mostly be for flavor, but by skipping the shields you should have enough power choices to fit them in. You might consider taking Provoke, keeping your pets on Defensive Follow (bodyguard), as the relatively small damage you do from Pistols or Boxing would at least be useful in building threat.


 

Posted

I just checked out my Thugs/FF and I'm seeing:

4.43 Maneuvers
12.68 Dispersion
2 * 11.8 Enforcer Maneuvers

for a total of 40.72. So yeah, with a 5% Def IO they'd be soft-capped w/o bubbles. That's with enhancing the Enforcer Maneuvers.

Just making sure, but you are aware of the recent change to FF single target buffs right? That it's an now aoe effect and if you bubble one pet, they all get it (assuming they're not running around).

Here are cons to not taking the bubbles:
1) If pets leave your line of sight or get out of range, they will no longer get your +Def buffs. With bubbles it doesn't matter where they are.
2) A defeated Enforcer could cause a cascading failure similar to -Def. That is, lose an enforcer, def will go down 10%ish, if the other enforcer goes down, you lose their Maneuvers too. Bubbles would cover the gap while you resummon.
3) Player teammates will not be happy. FF is thought of as a set that brings bubbles to the party and if you don't have that, you'll be regarded as not contributing your weight. I don't want to turn this into a debate on whether this is true or not, there are of course some other considerations but I'm just saying what will be a common perception.

So, based on Thugs soft-capping without bubbles, I'd say you could function fine. If you can live with the 3 points outlined above, then hey, go for it.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
Just making sure, but you are aware of the recent change to FF single target buffs right? That it's an now aoe effect and if you bubble one pet, they all get it (assuming they're not running around).

Here are cons to not taking the bubbles:
1) If pets leave your line of sight or get out of range, they will no longer get your +Def buffs. With bubbles it doesn't matter where they are.
2) A defeated Enforcer could cause a cascading failure similar to -Def. That is, lose an enforcer, def will go down 10%ish, if the other enforcer goes down, you lose their Maneuvers too. Bubbles would cover the gap while you resummon.
3) Player teammates will not be happy. FF is thought of as a set that brings bubbles to the party and if you don't have that, you'll be regarded as not contributing your weight. I don't want to turn this into a debate on whether this is true or not, there are of course some other considerations but I'm just saying what will be a common perception.

So, based on Thugs soft-capping without bubbles, I'd say you could function fine. If you can live with the 3 points outlined above, then hey, go for it.
starting with point A:

I know the ally bubbles are "splash" now. at least that's the word that comes to mind. it makes them slightly more tempting to take. but since this is a concept, I want to stick as close to the original as possible...

But knowing that they're splash makes my /cold and /thermal and /sonic guys more likely to take their shields.

now to the 3 points:

1) I'm willing to live with that challenge. And yes, Dispersion works for me - no need to put an ally in the target bubble.
2) Another challenge I'm willing to live with. Honestly, before this thread I wasn't even sure that Enforcers had Maneuvers. I'd just thought "oo, thugs" and figured I'd ask for the wisdom of the forums.
3) I've lived with that since I made this guy the first time. It's a frustrating stigma. I think he holds his own as an Ill/FF, and I hope he'll hold his own as a Thugs/FF as well.

I suppose my next question is: is this soft cap really important? I mean, I'm sure it's nice. But, should I be chasing it? What happens if I stay at that 40.72% instead of going to the soft cap?

I never really considered the number-crunching too much with the initial character -just wanted to make sure I wasn't digging a hole too deep.


The game ends at 50. Smilegasm
Do not ever give Mind Control a pet. We need more control sets without pets.
My characters are not "toons". They are all project characters, though.
Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue

 

Posted

Quote:
I suppose my next question is: is this soft cap really important? I mean, I'm sure it's nice. But, should I be chasing it? What happens if I stay at that 40.72% instead of going to the soft cap?
Given how easy it is to reach soft-cap, I'd say it's worth going for. If you get the 2 pet +def uniques, you don't even have to slot def in Enforcers.

To answer your last question, if you stay at 40% instead of 45%, your Thugs will be subjected to twice as much damage, due to mob base to-hit equalling 5% for 45% def and 10% for 40% def. So, to-hit is twice as high at 40 vs 45. That doesn't have a great practical concern at soloing at 0/1 or 1/1, but it will allow you to increase your difficulty, either for mob level and/or spawn size.

Hopefully Aid Other fits within your concept, it patches up the damage that does come through rather nicely.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lxndr View Post
3) I've lived with that since I made this guy the first time. It's a frustrating stigma. I think he holds his own as an Ill/FF, and I hope he'll hold his own as a Thugs/FF as well.
It's not fun to team with people who think it's only about holding their own. But, if that's your play attitude then taking shields isn't going to change it. It will still be your attitude.


Quote:

I suppose my next question is: is this soft cap really important? I mean, I'm sure it's nice. But, should I be chasing it? What happens if I stay at that 40.72% instead of going to the soft cap?
At soft cap, you only get hit one time out of 20. At 40.72%, it's almost twice as often, nearly one time out of 10. So, your defensive power is doubling in that last 5%.

With bubbles, dispersion bubble, and pet procs, you can greatly exceed the 45% limit, which is really good if you're facing an enemy that debuffs defense, or is able to impart a toHit bonus to itself.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Berzerker_NA View Post
It's not fun to team with people who think it's only about holding their own. But, if that's your play attitude then taking shields isn't going to change it. It will still be your attitude.
When one is a support team member, 'holding one's own' includes more than just what it means solo. This is part of the stigma and discrimination that I've met all along.


The game ends at 50. Smilegasm
Do not ever give Mind Control a pet. We need more control sets without pets.
My characters are not "toons". They are all project characters, though.
Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lxndr View Post
When one is a support team member, 'holding one's own' includes more than just what it means solo. This is part of the stigma and discrimination that I've met all along.
I don't understand the distinction. What do you mean by discrimination? Forgive me if this seems dense; I just don't follow.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
...[I]t would be more proper to say this game is slooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooowly dying.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyghtmaire View Post
I don't understand the distinction. What do you mean by discrimination? Forgive me if this seems dense; I just don't follow.
the "it's not fun". the concurrent implication that I'm apparently subhuman for not wanting to have ally-target bubbles.


The game ends at 50. Smilegasm
Do not ever give Mind Control a pet. We need more control sets without pets.
My characters are not "toons". They are all project characters, though.
Global chat @Lxndr My servers: Defiant, Liberty, Pinnacle, Virtue