Darth_Khasei
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Posts
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Quote:I think you are spot on my man. The reality is it is a vicious cycle that the average person enters unwittingly most of the time from the instant they sock money away into their 401k plan.Originally Posted by Torment And Agony
... but I'll get to that in a minute.....
I have no doubt that whatever the real reason is behind CoH being shut down .... we wouldn't like it very much.
I BELIEVE, as someone stated earlier, that the loss of CoH is simply an act to increase stock value for the shareholders. Companies are always under pressure to make stock look good. Yes, traditionally to look good they will turn a profit. However, layoffs, budget cuts, and all kinds of other sometimes questionable tactics are used to make people believe stock has greater value.
See stock prices ARE based on real things like assets, liabilities, and income potential, BUT are also often driven by perception - basically what people think the company is worth, what they are willing to pay, and will it make them money. Speculation.
Just as the stock price of NCSoft increased some 15% after the CoH closure announcement, they dropped again a week later. Perhaps a correction after the initial surge, or perhaps (as I like to believe) a reaction to the negative press they began to receive from the petition and the savecoh campaigns.
Lets toss some numbers around for fun. CoH I understand makes $10 million /year. Even if they put time, effort, and money into marketing to say... double that.... you're looking at $20 million/ year. A lot to you and I, but not so to a company "worth" around $5 billion. Simply announcing the "sunset" of CoH... their stock surged 15%... thats an increase in their "value" of $750 million!!!!
Funny huh? You and I see that as a loss of real income... but to them its a tiny investment increasing share value. (Probably netted the executives some nice bonuses at the same time).
So, why our City? CoH is really small in their arsenal of games. Sure Aion may be losing money (I don't know that - just heard it) - but it still has potential in sheer numbers of players. Aion was in the 1 million subscriber range at one point - CoH peaked around 150k with the most recent below the 50k mark. I could probably find other examples but I think you get the idea.
Assuming all of this is correct... the best plan of action would probably to continue the bad publicity and continue to tank NCsoft stock prices. Even if we can't save CoH - we can at least send a message for them to tread carefully in the future.
Still can't wrap your head around them throwing away $10 million /year? Consider the most valuable thing to a software company.... the people. The people are the most valuable thing they have. Where we see a great team of Zwill et al and the community as a whole, they can see a waste of resources. Like having a goose that can lay golden eggs only pumping out tin. "They are only making $10 mil /year? They should be making $100 mil!" Already it seems they have found positions for the Paragon staff in new projects. Again.... an investment sacrificing CoH to better use the staff elsewhere.
Now....
A lot of people have been blaming Nexon for this situation. Which is entirely reasonable, after all, at 14.7% they are the majority shareholder, and again, anything NCSoft has done has been to increase shareholder value. This got me thinking. Who else is a shareholder? There is another 85.3% of NCSoft floating out there. Is it possible... that WE own it? Could CoH players actually be the evil shareholders that we are up in arms about?
My first thought was to look at mutual funds. For those not familiar, a mutual fund is a group of stocks put together as a bundle by a financial institution. Most of us don't keep track of all the different companies in our mutual funds, but there can be dozens - or even hundreds. Likely companies you have heard of like Apple, Microsoft, and IBM, but also many you haven't heard of...
So, in Google I typed "ncsoft mutual fund". The first hit I got was American Century Investments, which indeed includes NCSoft shares in some of their mutual portfolios. I then Wiki'd American Century Investments and found that CIBC owns a 41% stake in them. A top Canadian bank, an American Investment company, and a Korean software company. Sounds almost like a crazy conspiracy theory, but just one small example of how, in a very real way, any of us can be the evil shareholder pressuring NCSOft to increase their stock prices.... without even knowing it.
I still keep hoping that NCSoft will change their mind (however unlikely) or that they will sell it (very unlikely), or that Titan can pull some magic trick out of their hat. I don't like the thought of my toons being killed off. I love this game and I know everyone wants a reason for its ending. I hope this can help even in a small way to understanding. Just like any relationship, it helps to have some kind of closure.
Let the trolling begin....
Executives salaries being tied to the stock price was the straw that broke the camel's back. As long as this practice continues you will see more things like this that appear on the surface not to make sense, but just under the surface is where the real action is and it is not exactly the way people think it is.
How many people are willing to take less of a return on "their" stocks across the board to end some of the practices that make closing profitable businesses against the law?
Not the majority in the US for sure as this question was posed and answered resoundingly in the 90's. Of course people now want to go back and revise things but the jelly is already out of the donut. -
Quote:I am not a tax guy, but I do know that corporations get insane tax breaks for things that are not the norm. For all we know they could be able to write off not just COH, but the secret project, Paragon studios and all the costs related to it for the years they were working on it.Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You don't write things off unless what you save in tax payments is considerably greater than the actual value of what you are writing off.
Here is a very simple example.
1. You buy a piece of modern art as speculation at a low price
2. Your "Art" doesn't appreciate over time
3. You find a friendly museum that you donate the "art" to make a regular donation and they favorably value your "art" for you
4. You take the museums valuation of your art as your deduction
5. The museum places your art in their cellar
The only way taking a write off for CoH works is if they can get an insane valuation for it.
In the end, someone in the know and with power made the decision to close things down. Generally, they don't get to that position by just taking huge losses with no means of mitigation. Maybe they have in this case, but it seems pretty unlikely due to the rushed nature of the close down. -
Quote:That depends on how "they" view it. They may view it as a write off. In that case is is the only thing that does compute.Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I am sorry but you have to realize that doesn't compute.
If that is the case you drop the secret project, you don't destroy an asset that would be conservatively valued at 10-20 million dollars -
Quote:Must be that mirror effect again.Originally Posted by Xzero45
F.ucking right.
Hey, I calls it like I sees it. So calm down. -
Quote:The drivel is all the stupid axe grinding disguised as speculation when the devs and NC SOFT already said the project they were working on was not in the same direction as NC SOFT wanted to go. Anything other than that is the same axe grinding troll drivel that was posted here before the announcement .Originally Posted by Cobra_Man
Still beats the hell out of the drivel that you've been posting here......
I can assume by your posts that you've not actually bothered to read the content of this thread .
If you had, you would have seen arguments for and against the thread title.
What you would not have seen was anyone trolling, or looking to do anything of the sort. -
Quote:And you adding loads of insight to every discussion....Originally Posted by Xzero45
Don't worry. We still have the people complaining about trolls and troll topics.
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Quote:Exactly. I think that scared some suits in a certain tower in Korea.Originally Posted by UnSub
Although it sounds like a sensible approach, the problem is that a lot of unevolved hardcore gamers still exist. When a new MMO title launches, groups of these show up, crash the party, drink all the booze, chuck the furniture in the pool, loudly proclaim, "THIS PARTY SUCKED!" and move on.
The evolved hardcore gamer doesn't see the damage done, but only hears that the title sucked and didn't have enough content in it. So they hold off, not wanting to sacrifice their precious time on something they might not enjoy.
It's a very hard group to reach. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Brillig
You keep missing the point. It takes two to dance. The big guys can't buy out the small guys if the small guys don't sell. And now, with the internet, the big guys don't control the distribution channel any more, so it really is a choice.snip
Trust me I have been in the entertainment industry for two decades and live in the belly of the beast, I am not missing any points.
Small guys as individuals "sell out" when there is a major chance to enhance their lives for generations, but the average artist is living on much much less and many struggle just to make a living. Artist that work for corporations are a bit different, since they are not the type of artist that would need to worry about distribution. Since they are working for a corporation they have not issues in terms of trying to distribute and original work like a musician for instance.
In terms of distribution the big guys still have a hand in every new major distribution channel that has any real dollars flowing through just under different names. They have always done that kind of thing.
While the internet has opened the door to many, it has also made it harder to rise above the noise so to speak. Distribution alone is not the key to large retail sales. A large advertising budget needs to be allocated as well. -
Quote:Artists flocked to where they could get a paycheck. It was not their fault the large corps. eliminated niche opportunities at every turn.Originally Posted by Brillig
Except that this change could not have happened without the willing cooperation of the artists, who flocked to the big publishers/distributors in order to make the big money.
I couldn't disagree more. The advent of crowdfunding has made funding for niche projects a reality. Cloud computing has eliminated one of the biggest barriers to entry for online gaming by making it possible to pay for cycles on demand and cutting out one of the biggest costs of the online game - the datacenter.
People are still figuring out how to work in the new reality, but this could be the beginning of the golden age of online gaming.
Kickstarter, crowd funding etc. are great to get started, but as most small music publishers found out, if you want to go beyond a certain small niche, you must at some level get in bed with the big guys.
Also don't forget the factor that sees small niche companies reach a certain level then the big guys come in and buy them out and f**k it all up again. Until I see "that" trend change I don't see any difference. The small guys always sell out to the big guys for the money and then the big guys f**k it up. -
You would only do something like this if you cared about the development team, the community and the people that played the game for 8 years.
Since NC SOFT does not give a damm about anything other than MAX revenues doing something "right" like this was not even a consideration at the table of decision. -
And this is it, all we are left with is the trolls and their troll topics....Brilliant.
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Quote:Companies like NC SOFT are no longer interested in untapped markets or they would not be abandoning the tapped Western Superhero MMO market. They are only interested in the big revenue projects. This is the same kind of thing that happened in movies, tv and music a long time ago.Originally Posted by Shagster
You could be right.
While I think targeting the "hardcore gamer who doesn't have much time for gaming anymore" could actually be a nice untapped market, I would think that might be exactly the opposite of what NCSoft wants to target, if they think hardcore grinding MMOs are where it's at. Maybe that conflict of vision doomed the Super-Secret-Project, and NCSoft killed Paragon because they didn't like what they saw in the pipeline.
Personally, I think Paragon was pretty good at being different than the crowd and finding new approaches to things. If anyone could have made a game that would exploit the "evolved hardcore gamer" market, it would be them.
Artistic endeavors survived quite nicely in various niche's until the modern day suit/money trained corp. types took over with the increasing revenue and MAXIMUM bottom line mentality.
We will be lucky to see anything unique in the future. Very lucky.... -
Quote:Frankly, I took it as his clear explanation of the NC SOFT "going in a different direction" line. It seemed clear to me NC SOFT did not have faith in the super secret project and therefore decided to shut things down now.Originally Posted by Shagster
The one thing related to Paragon Studios that did make my ears perk up: he did mention what the target audience would have been for the "super secret project". He said they used the catch-phrase "the evolved hardcore gamer" for what they were shooting for in appealing to. He said he was an example of an "evolved hardcore gamer", in that he had that hardcore gaming attitude and background, but now he had wife, kids, job, commitments, etc.
That's an interesting idea, to tailor a game to that market.
To me this was just clear confirmation of what many here were speculating about.
Making a game that has it's target audience as "the evolved hardcore gamer" sounds like a death nail before it is even started. Especially in today's gaming environment of trying to appeal to as many as possible to maximize revenue on every single project.
Sounds like Paragon never had a chance. -
Quote:Yes, the trolls and other miscreants have been set free in this forum.Originally Posted by Father Xmas
We've come to this now, turning on the game as the cause.
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Interesting perspective.
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Quote:The problem here has is not and has never been anyone thinking it would last forever as has been stated many many times now. It was the when and how. Right before an issue launch for this game, right after the launch of GW2, the literally overnight manner in firing all the people at paragon AND the entire last part I bolded.Originally Posted by Bad_Influence
We *don't* trust them. The problem is that ANY creating house will shutter one of their games, any time they feel like it. Its not like you can go from an NCSoft game to any other, secure in the knowledge that the rug will never be pulled out from under you.
Not defending NCSoft's decision in the slightest, believe me. But its not like they are the only ones doing this.
With that said, I wish companies everywhere would exhibit a little more sensitivity toward the feelings of fans who have lived a second life in their games for literally years. To them its a 'business decision," to us its an eviction notice on top of having all our pets put to sleep with no hope of reprieve. Its kind of a big deal [understatement], and I think that totally escapes them.
It was the perfect storm of crap served to us on a garbage can top as the platter. As yes it is clear that a lot of things escape them, starting with ever getting a penny of my money again. -
Words cannot express just how stupid I feel the suits that made the final decision are in this case.
NC SOFT sucks pancakes and will never get another penny from me no matter what they do. -
Don't like most of what MMO's are about, but COH was different, it was about being a hero or villain and smashing things. Fun and simple.
You could not pay me enough money for me to ever play another NC SOFT game. Even if they came out with COH2 and promised in writing to keep the game open for 15 years I would not play it.
I play EVE online here and there for the past three years, but have never paid a dime due to the plex system and being a marketeer
I doubt I am going to play any other MMO's in the future, but certainly NOTHING from NC SOFT EVER. -
They are like the corporate blob.
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Quote:Nuff said.Originally Posted by REDRUM
How can anyone ever trust and play NCsoft games knowing they will just shut the game down at any time.
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I think a re-evaluation of MMO's and our connection to them is needed.
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All this did was pull back the cover clouding the view of how companies actually view MMO's and the MMO player base. They do not see them as long term "unless" they are massive continuous revenue makers.
They are not satisfied with profit, they must make a "certain" level of profit or be shut down without any concern over the community built around the revenue stream.
So while companies use the "community" and "social" aspects of MMO's as a MAJOR selling point, once they get your money they could care less about the "community" built within the game, unless it is large enough not to just make a profit, but a profit at the levels they feel are needed "not" to shut it down.
My view on NC SOFT and MMO's is no longer clouded and my subsequent buying and playing habits will reflect this new knowledge. -
Understandably perspective has been lost in the entire episode.
This really was not about COH for NC SOFT. It was more about the new projects Paragon was working on. NC SOFT decided to go in a different direction shutting down the entire studio. COH was just a casualty of war so to speak.
IMHO, NC SOFT made no real effort to work out modern alternative ways to sell the game, it was the traditional pay us the overvalued price or the game is locked away in our vault forever type deal.
Pretty typical of the corporate mentality of today's world, which is something I feel ALL MMO players should take note of before investing the kind of time and apparently real life feelings into any MMO that was invested by some in COH.
It is something you have so little control over and does not have anywhere near the same value to the people that actually make the decisions on how long they are going to allow you to play it, than it does for you.
This is an opportunity for us all to learn this hard lesson on control, lack thereof and what to invest in emotionally when you have no control and the one's that do only care about money and not the emotional impact of the societies built around the games they peddle.
For me it is lesson learned. -
Bummer!
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Quote:Hit me up under Darth Khasei there. Maybe we can do some business as I am a marketeer.Originally Posted by Dethos_Zahrim
P.S., I've decided to punish myself by going back to the land of spreadsheets and internet spaceships being serious business till I find a new game I actually enjoyed as much as here. So hopefully I might gank, or be ganked, by some of you there.