Colossal
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Posts
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Joined
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I'd say besides Fire your top AoE outputters will be SS, Ice (yes folks, it's true), and War Mace. Not sure about Elec but I think it's slightly behind in terms of AoE nowadays...could be wrong though?? Don't play it much. Single target damage output I'd say DM and SS (as stated before...Rage is so damn good).
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Quote:Oh I know I completely agree they are the best at everything and since the game is not balanced on IOs they will not nerf it because the survivability of /Fire is very meh with only SOs.Originally Posted by Auroxis
I've said before that SS/FA is the best for pretty much everything and I'll keep saying it. I'm not gonna ask for nerfs, but facts are facts. -
Quote:It pains me to see that SS/FA/Soul is not only the best farmer, one of the best damage mitigators, one of the best (if not THE best) AoE damage DPS combinations, but is now the best single target DPS combo...where's the parody?Originally Posted by Auroxis
I'm pretty sure FA>SD on brutes for single target damage. Burn is a very good single target attack, Blazing Aura works great with Fury, and Fiery Embrace is amazing.
The current best pylon time holder for brutes(might overtake scrapper times as well) is an SS/FA/Soul brute. -
Quote:If you're looking for pure aggro holding purposes (and added survivability) than definitely look into Soul Mastery's Darkest Night. It's a large radius AoE toggle that not only gives a nice to hit debuff (can be enhanced up to ~20%) but also an unresistable -21% damage debuff. This adds to your survivability and anything in Darkest Night's patch will also be taunted (every .75 seconds with the reapplication of the debuff, which is more often than your taunt aura even) to you due to the debuffs affecting them.Originally Posted by Star_Empath
So, I rolled a wp/dm tanker a few weeks ago, and have really enjoyed it so far. He's currently level 34, and nigh untouchable. Thing is, he seems really light on anything AoE so far. I really like to herd up two groups at once, but the lack of AoE damage can make it a bit difficult to keep aggro on all the enemies at once. So far, I've gotten by with the help of my good friend the Tab key, and taunting anything that even looks at someone else.
So, the question. Does it get easier to hold agro over large groups once I get to the epic and patron power pools? And, on that topic, which power pools would you consider *best* for me to take? -
Quote:Completely agree. I'd say just make BA's big cone (Pendulum) have the same max targets and that would be enough to close the gap for me. (As Cleave does more damage than WM's narrow cone so that should have a smaller arc anyway).Originally Posted by mauk2
So what I'm hearing is that battleax needs a buff?
Ok!
I'm game for that!
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Quote:Not enough to notice? I notice all the time on my /BA tanker that I do not hit as many targets as I do on my /WM brute. You said yourself you're hitting 2-3 targets using cleave, with /WM's cone I regularly hit 4-5. Also, Battle Axe's big cone (180 degrees. Pendulum) hits 5 max target and Pendulum's (/WM's big cone, 180 degrees) hits 10. That's DOUBLE the targets and it's rare if I hit less than 7 (8-10 on average) guys when using it. /WM has actually a very noticeable advantage in AoE damage. And as stated before (and I thought it was obvious so I did not state it) Crowd Control does KB not disorient as it's secondary effect. It's hard for mobs to slowly stagger away when they're are being knocked down every 7-8 seconds.Originally Posted by mauk2
Not enough to notice, no.
However: If you choose dark armor, wm causes significant amounts of stun. Stunned bad guys do not attack you, but they also wander away. This means they are too far away to fuel things like your heal, which is rather important on a dark armor toon.
WM was rebuilt some years ago to bring it to parity with ax. Since its secondary effects are not as benign as ax's, it was given slightly more AOE capacity to compensate.
Besides having cooler weapons (Roman axe's FTW) and concept I really don't see why people ever roll an ax toon over WM. -
Quote:It's closer for ST but Mace is generally considered the better of the two sets. AoE just look at mids, Mace's cone is wider and has more max targets.Originally Posted by Supermax
Thanks for the input everybody. It sounds like all 3 are great sets, so I'm still not sure. To narrow it down, I guess I will have to pick the one that doesn't just FEEL powerful, but actually is the most powerful. Which does the most raw damage?
I really like AoE damage, so it seems that Stone is out, since it seems to clearly have the least of the three. Can others confirm Colossal's claim that WM will generally outdamage Axe? Is WM really better in both ST and AoE damage?
And lastly, I read somewhere that WM will most likely be better on scrappers than brutes. Is there truth to this? I wouldn't want to make one AT, if the same set is clearly better on another. -
All three sets are essentially kings of mitigation and burst damage so you can't go wrong with any of them. That being said between axe and mace, they are essentially clones of each other but mace has more AoE potential due to a larger cones and more max targets so most prefer mace over axe (also disorient mitigates more damage than KB but both are nice...idk about "stuns suck unless you have a damage armor" my Mace/SR brute never had a problem. So you're left with either Mace or Stone. Really both are great sets and are the epitome of SMASH but Mace has more AoE potential (Stone has tremor and it is sooooo sloooowwww) while Stone has the ultimate mitigation tool (fault) and burst damage that is incomparable. So it's left to your taste.
EDIT: Mace's heavy hitter also animates faster than Battle Axe's and has more damage (Clobber vs. Cleave) and Cleave's arc is only 20 degrees while Shatter's is 45 and Shatter has more max targets at the cost of less base damage. (Basically Mace wins in ST damage and AoE) Also Mace's damage type is smashing and BA's is lethal. Smashing is generally considered better because it is less resisted throughout the game (though still commonly resisted). -
Quote:Yeah drop Stealth for Maneuvers and slot some Endurance reductions in it. The attacks are a little underslotted like LSK said. I'd take a slot out of combat jumping and weave (the defense bonuses you get from it are very minimal) and use those to slot in the Mako's Bight quad in each. He's already said a couple times that he has the PvP IO's already so that is no object. But on a Fire tank, I'd say definitely keep all 3 of the BoTZ in SJ...there's no other way to get those defense bonuses for so little slots. Also definitely KEEP temp protection. It's resistance against slows is more than enough to make it a great pick. The Aegis slotted in it is as good as anything else he could put in there. It's not like he's wasting a slot for it.Originally Posted by LSK
First off Stealth is a end hog and if you are going to get it put some end reduction in it. second fire sword and greater fire sword you need more acc in it. third off do you have the influence to get the PvP IOs or al ready have them? Forth off in weave you have 3 gifts I take it it is for fire res which you do not need with out those 3 you are still at res cap for it. SJ is over slotted you do not need all 3 of the BoTZ in there. You really do not need temp protection and the aegis you have for psionic res you really do not need.
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Basically what Fin said except also consider dropping Greater Ice Sword if you can find the S/L defense somewhere else. It really is a horrible attack with an atrocious DPA and DPS. For Ice Melee the suggested attack chain involves only FF, IS, FT, and Gloom. With ample uses of Frost and Frozen Aura in AoE situations of course!
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Quote:No he means to slot your melee powers with the Kinetic Combat enhancement set...not roll an entirely new character with Kinetic Melee. This would give you a great amount of S/L defense but with less sets. However for a set like /Fire I find it more useful to slot for your positional defenses (melee/ranged/aoe) because energy makes up a rather high portion of the endgame content damage.Originally Posted by Spadra
Kinetic Combat is such a fun set but my Tank was my first character I made back in the day years ago. I couldn't bring myself to swap out his power sets. I definitely like the call for Reactive Armor. I already have the Steadfast unique slotted, unless you're suggesting placing somewhere else? I have respec'ed many, many times and this was the last build I drafted in Mid's. Does that answer your question regarding selection? I want to thank both of you guys for giving me a hand and making suggestions, I'm getting a few ideas of adjustments that won't be too painful to make.
Also I would refer to you to Grey Pilgrim's guide for the Fire/Fire tanker and pay special attention to the defensive build (it's pretty much the build for tanking normal content):
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=209345
I think you'll find that to be most helpful. -
Quote:I'm not saying Lift should be changed. I'm saying Dimension Shift should be changed to an AoE version of lift. Making normal lift a chain power makes no sense thematically for gravity like it does for Elec so I wouldn't like to see that. Also a chain is not nearly as effecting as a normal AoE power.Originally Posted by Alef_infinity
I've heard Lift right now's actually a power worth replacing the tier 1 Assault attacks with. If they changed it into an AoE, that niche would be lost. Not to mention change of IO slotting. In the end, AoE Lift would be too drastic a change for not enough justification.
Honestly, Gravity would become a lot more playable with just fixes to Propel and Wormhole, enough to almost completely fix it. Completely throwing Dimension Shift out and replacing it wouldn't be that disruptive, most likely. Far less disruptive than an AoE change to Lift.
I get what Thirty's saying about turning Dimension Shift into a toggle so it can be turned on/off. That would make using it teams less confusing for everyone and slightly more effective..but really it would still be the most useless and situational AoE control in any of the controller sets. I'm sure you (Thirty) can make intangibility work well but for most playstyles it's largely useless and any other form of control would be better (The AoE hold is just as good for stopping ambushes and does not cause your teammates to waste endurance trying to attack them, even when you have it obviously colored there will be accidental targeting of effected mobs). My proposed changes to gravity wouldn't change the sets unique feel, you'd have:
ST Lift, ST immob, ST hold, ST (or possibly cone) faster animating KD power (propel), AoE immob, AoE Lift (pulsing field a la Earthquake or targeted AoE a la Stalagmites prefferably), AoE hold, AoE Stun (wormhole), Pet (Singy).
Wormhole's numbers could use a little tweaking as well but I would be fine if it just did not cause aggro and changing it's KB to KD would be a cherry on top. -
Quote:You have to be a troll, right?Originally Posted by evil women for pinn
well here is the thing brutes tank and dish out yes elec/power can tank rikti but i am thinking of what gets it done fastest and yes
but look brutes can be awesome but like sometimes its the disorients and other that really get it done rikti and elec/power brutes and good but what ia really the best is that build brutes are well rounded against certain types of damage but when it comes to rikti you never know what powers they will use sometimes fire sometimes earth sometimes psi sometimes smashing/lethal you get the point elec/power is 2nd best at rikti it is really great yes okay i will go with brute even though its not always best elec/power farmer is best brute bet against rikti -
Quote:Yeah...Stone/Anything/Pocket KinOriginally Posted by Kemphler
I actually, after toying around in MIDs, have decided against a Stone/DM...Any suggestions for a good Stone/? that has a good survival rate with a decent damage output? Aside from a Stone/Fire that is.
Really though you want something pretty quick as far as animation and recharges go so I would suggest KM. -
Quote:Really just any form of an AoE lift would make the set far more enjoyable, I'd rather it NOT be a PBAoE (especially not a PBAoE toggle, I fear they would reduce it's usefullness to match that of World of Confusion) but rather a click power like Stalagmites, a "pulsing" field like Static Field, or something like Ice Slick.Originally Posted by Jibikao
The idea of making Dimension Shift to a pbaoe Toggle that has a chance to Lift Up nearby enemies is VERY INTERESTING.
I'll definitely try it and it sure beats a power that I don't use 99% of the gaming time.
However, Gravity set favors range-only style because its group hold is target aoe and Singy encourages you to stand behind it for extra protection.
Maybe just change it to Ice Slick kind of power but it checks for Knock Up instead of Knock Down? They can increase the recharge from 90s to 120s and decrease the frequency.
I feel propel needs tweaking as well, I would just like to see it's cast time brought down to 2-2.5 seconds and changing the KB to KD is all I need. Lift and Propel are two of the coolest and most unique powers in the game. Those and Wormhole are the reason for playing the set (and Singy, but he's not as unique- as every set save Mind gets a pet) so it would be nice if Propel was made actually useful and instead of a dumb AoE Intangibility we got an AoE version of lift. Those two changes would make Gravity at least on par with some other sets while still keeping it's unique feel. -
Quote:Eh that would slightly improve things but I just don't see the use in an AoE intangible power 95% of the time (at least for my playstyle, I don't solo much). Any power that is only useful less than 10% of the time isn't worth it IMO.Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
See, I think that [Dimension Shift] should become a Toggle, and [Lift] should be made into a chain power á là [Jolting Chain]
Plus I just really want an AoE lift power rather than a chain because it would just be cooler. Just take out Dimension Shift, give it any old name (Mass/Group Lift would even be fine), put it on a 30-45 second recharge timer and call it a day. And the whole "chain" effect makes sense thematically for electric, but for gravity it really doesn't. I'm sure there is a way you could spin it to fit thematically for gravity but everyone would know it doesn't really fit. -
If they were to just change Dimension Shift into an AoE version of Lift...man it would be my favorite set.
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Quote:Idk about 10% higher but yes that chain is higher for a brute @ +70% fury. Billz had it broken down with the numbers somewhere in the scrappers forum in the top powerset single target DPS thread awhile ago.Originally Posted by Rad_Avenger
The Follow Up / Focus / Slash attack chain is 10% higher on a Brute?
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From what I remember the demon farm given by TV was the best to farm for SS/Fire. Not terribly confident that I'm right however.
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I think I'm basing my anti-Tremor mentality off of my old Stone brute where it's all about damage and DPS, for a tanker the more important thing is definitely the mitigation Tremor would provide. Besides I'll have gloom to fill the gap left by not having SM. Guess I won't know till I try it.
Anyways thanks for the input, I've been doing some tinkering and have changed a few things based off your builds (looks more like yours than it does my old one really). -
Ahhh yup you're right Finduilas. I completely forgot Deflection was also a resistance power (you can tell I play /Shields a lot can't you...). Just take my build or something like it and throw in the changes suggested by Finduilas and you'll have a pretty tough and fully functional "budget" tank
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Here's my crack at a very basic and very cheap IO build. All these sets are very easily attainable if with a couple Alignment merits to fund the build.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Shield Defense
Secondary Power Set: Kinetic Melee
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Deflection -- S'dpty-Def(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(3), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(3), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(5)
Level 1: Quick Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(15), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(15), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(17), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 2: Battle Agility -- S'dpty-Def(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(5), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(7), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(7)
Level 4: True Grit -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam(9), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(9), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(11), Heal-I(11), Heal-I(13)
Level 6: Body Blow -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(19), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(25), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 8: Active Defense -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 10: Against All Odds -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 12: Smashing Blow -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(40), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(40), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(42), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(42), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 16: Phalanx Fighting -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 18: Grant Cover -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(19)
Level 20: Power Siphon -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(21), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(21), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(23), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(23), GSFC-Build%(25)
Level 22: Taunt -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Shield Charge -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(27), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(27), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(29), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31)
Level 28: Burst -- M'Strk-Acc/Dmg(A), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx(34), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(34), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx(37), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 30: Tough -- TtmC'tng-ResDam(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(31), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(34)
Level 32: Weave -- S'dpty-Def(A), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx(33), S'dpty-Def/Rchg(33), S'dpty-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 35: Focused Burst -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(36), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37)
Level 38: Concentrated Strike -- C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(42), C'ngImp-Dmg/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(43), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(43), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Super Jump -- Empty(A)
Level 44: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Heal-I(A), EndMod-I(50)
Level 49: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50), RechRdx-I(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(46), Heal-I(46)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(48), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(48), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(48)
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Hmmm some interesting ideas there. I really don't want to substitute tremor in though because it's such a slow attack (nearly a 3.5 second animation time with Arcanatime) and has meh damage. I do much rather like your slotting of the attacks however and am going to try to fit in those extra slots.
My /Energy Aura brute has nearly identical consumption and recovery rates for endurance not even factoring in attacks (I know they're they most endurance taxing thing) and I never have endurance problems just because of Energy Drain alone. A full blue bar every 25 seconds and it really doesn't matter what else your doing, if you pay attention you'll never detoggle.
One other thing, the chance for knockback proc in fault would be rather annoying, I don't want 20% of the group to go flying away from me. -
He never claimed to be at the soft cap for S/L defenses... nor did he even say he was at 32.5% defense for S/L... He said "Just for evidence that Elec/ can cap s/l RESISTS" and the build was at the 90% RESIST hard cap for S/L. He also went on to that the build was one small purple away from the soft cap to POSITIONALS (which it is 32.5 to melee, 33.1 to ranged, 32.5 to AoE), not S/L and then he argued that with the positionals S/L defense is already covered (which is true). I think that is why he got all mad cause you misread his post entirely and ran with it.
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Huh? I'm not sure where your getting those numbers from but in Mids with that build I'm showing 2.81 end recovered/sec and 2.16 end used/sec (maybe you had stamina turned off?) This is before you account for the cardiac alpha and +end from accolades. Plus that on top of the ability to use Power Sink every 25ish seconds and this guy will be a marathon runner.
EDIT: Not to mention the endurance discount given by energize.