Cognito

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As I've said before I do think that allowing farming to reap all the rewards better than all other activities is poor game design.

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Hammer. Nail. Head.

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Look at the prices of purple recipe drops (higher then ever).


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The price of purple recipe's has dropped a lot since they were introduced.

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True, as did everything. But most purples prices have been steadily creeping up the past few months.

I agree with pretty much all you said there Shannon.

Just another observation of mine. The argument that you should take another attack instead of taunt. Firstly, Im sure nobody in their right mind would suggest ANY attack is better than taunt in grabbing aggro.

Secondly, I am almost certain that the teams I play in do more damage if I taunt. Yes folks, its true. *I* may do less damage, but my damage as a tank is pitiful compared to a blaster,or even defender sometimes, who is not afraid to unleash AoE hell.

Boo, Hiss, we hate red crystals.

Has anybody got a good hint about where to get a nice Oranbanga mission at level 50? I want to park my brute next to a red crystal to grab the damage badge(s).

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Hi,

about 6 months ago this Thread was started and got very heated among some of us.

We are now 6 momnths on from this and I would like to say that those that predicted salvage prices would fall from this were correct.

Yesterday I got dropped a Mu Vestment and a Black Blood of the Mandate. These used to sell for 2 - 3 million inf each, and yesterday they sold for 600,000 and 60,000 inf respectively.

No point to this thread apart from pointing out that some people who seemed to be so anti-farming to the point of it must be removed and stopped at all costs were wrong as we now all benifit


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These results are highly contaminated because of the introduction of an extremely popular, new TF, the ITF, which drop's magic salvage. You have particularly pulled out two peices of rare magic salvage which gives an extremely warped picture.

Look at the prices before the introduction of the ITF (no difference in change, or getting slightly higher).

Look at the prices of non-magic salvage now (huge rises).

Look at the prices of purple recipe drops (higher then ever).

You simply cant look at these two items and say "ho ho ho I was right". The market it determined by a lot more than farming, although farming has an effect.

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An Idiot's Guide To Taunt:

The Good Things About Taunt: learnable early, auto hitting, ranged, area of effect, good duration, doesn't suck up slots, doesn't suck down endurance.

The Bad Thing About Taunt: It does nothing. You have gauntlet so why kid yourself? This is a power that has no effect. It's a blank bullet you can spray over an area to get a slightly-better-than-normal Gauntlet hit.

What Taunt Is Good For: It gives you scope. More reach, more area, more often, more accurate.

What Taunt Is Not Good For: Defense or threat generation, ie, everything a Tanker needs to have.

Is It Selfish Not To Take Taunt: Heck no. Being able to actually hold enemies because you took a real attack that builds hate instead of a power that does nothing is called "smart". Playing a class whose inherent power is completely useless alone is called "team friendly". Anyone who won't group with you because you don't have taunt is called a "numbskull". All your attacks are taunts.

Should you Take Taunt Anyway: Yes, but don't burst a blood vessel over it.

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Nice Opinion. Mine differs.

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The idea of tunneling has arisen before. There is comic book precident for characters moving rapidly through the ground and popping up elsewhere. However I would make it like teleport, but with the start and end location having to be on the ground (with a much lower endurance cost to compensate for this restriction).

Yes, a placate/regen power available to anyone at level six is off the overpowered scale.

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Like the idea of a ground only teleport - maybe with a longer delay and lower end cost.

Possibly you could actually travel as a "furrow" in the ground. This would have a +stealth and possibly +res (all) effect, as you are submerged, and a jump or power activation would bringyou back to earth . I actually see Burrow as a "slow but safe" travel power.

As for the rest of the pools, thats a bit more tricky...

1. Entrench. You embed yourself in the earth. You cannot move or jump whilst this toggle is active, but you are immune to knockback/down.
2. Submerge. A submerged character is very hard to spot and somewhat resistant to all damage. Any power activation or movement will cause you to spring out of the earth, breaking the submerge, and causing an AoE low damage smash attack on anything around you, with chance of knockback. A sumberged character who his hit or knockbacked/down/up will emerge without any such attack.
3. Burrow, as above
4. Tunnel: Like group fly, but burrow


I would have all burrow powers have a long animation,

I think the mechanic for Phase Shift is different from 100% resistance but maybe somebody could check with Hamidon

Civillians I didnt think about. Im not sure controllers can launch any attacks on them (unlike villains) so the point may be moot. Even if its not, then would untyped damage actually damage them? again - im not sure the mechanic is untyped damage.

My AR/Ice is now level 39. If anybody ever thinks AR is gimped, I would ask them to carefully look at the stats of Ignite.

Move along Devs, nothing to see here... *innocent whistle*

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Nothing at present does untyped damage, although the mechanic to do so is there. At one point they considered Assassing Strike for (some) untyped damage.

It quite clearly is game breaking, But not in above system. The untyped damage would be unbuffable, and controllers base damage is not exactly high. In fact, its low!

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As I recall, it was viewed as game breaking not because you could do too much damage to the things you're meant to be attacking, but because lots of things you aren't meant to damage at all are protected by 100% damage resistance, which is bypassed by untyped damage.

So it doesn't really matter if the base damage is low - if a system lets you break something unbreakable it's... err... broken.

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Thats actually a fair point. However, Off the top of my head the only thing that has 100% resistance I can think of is,intermittently, the Honoree. Am I missing something?

(I would imagine phased toons etc remain unaffected by untyped damage).

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I'm not totally convinced it would have much if any effect on fire/kins - do they actually see much benifit from containment - I was under the impression much of their damage comes from the rabid heavily buffed imps and I don't believe containment applies there although I may be wrong on that and the mobs don't tend to last long enough to be hit by much more than the opening attacks.

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THe ghastly combintion is the effect of containment and +damage boost on hot feet.

Fire is meant to be the "damage" set, fair enough. Keep imps buffed and beautiful, they are super squishy to compensate.

I'm fairly convinced this would curtail the Fire/Kin effect - without nerfing Fire or Kin, and without being a totally nerftastic nerf to Fire / Kin (as you say, they will still have buffed Fire Imps and lots of other groovy effects)

Nothing at present does untyped damage, although the mechanic to do so is there. At one point they considered Assassing Strike for (some) untyped damage.

It quite clearly is game breaking, But not in above system. The untyped damage would be unbuffable, and controllers base damage is not exactly high. In fact, its low!

Hi folks. Here's a little thought I had about reworking Containment.

Historically, you may know that Containment was brought in a few issues into the games. Hence, the initial primary powersets where designed without containment in mind. My understanding was that containment was introduced to allow controllers at least some ability to solo, albeit slowly, by giving them a bit more damage.

Now, I note three problems with the controller AT.

1. Fire/Kins. Move along, nothing to see here... However, there is a lot of discussion about this combination, which has extremely high damage capability. It is, as they say, an "outlier". The issue here is that Containment makes this combination outstanding when applied to hot feet, when buffed by Kinetics (or indeed, any damage buff).

2. AV's. Not that controllers are bad, its just that holds / control is of mediocre effect against AV's, and the controller ususally ends up being just a "sub-par" defender against them.

3. Some sets, notably Earth still do terrible damage. The reason really boils down to high level of resistance, particularly to smash/lethal damage, but the same can apply to mind when fighting robots etc. THe issue is that with such low base damage, when a controller fights enemies resistant to that damage type, it turns from a marathon into a triatholon. Done three times. With a broken leg.

So I thought of a possible solution addressing these three concerns. Adapting Containment.

The principle would be that a controller, once he has an enemy "contained" would really have control. He would know how to bypass the enemies protection, manipulate them so he could attack their weak spots.

Hence, 2 effects.

1. Controllers, if attacking a "contained" enemy, ignore HALF of that enemies defence. They will manipulate the enemy so that their attacks get through.

2. More importantly, they cease to do double damage. Instead, damage is calculated normally. In addition, the enemy receives UNTYPED damage equal to the base damage of the attack. The untyped damage is unaffected by buffs or debuffs.

Now, bear with me (obviously figures may have to be adjusted. +150% base damage untyped? +75% base damage untyped? 75% for immobilise, 150% for holds? etc)

What effect does this give?

1. Hotfeet remains a groovy damage power, but it no longer gets mind blowing due to damage buffs. Note that the bonus damage is a) immune to debuffs and b) cannot be resisted before everyone screams "Nerfherder"

2. This would significantly boost Controllers versus AV. The ability to do low, but untyped damage, would up their damage against AV's. This may put them at a more level pegging in terms of AV fight desirability.

3. When facing a foe resistant to your "conventional" damage type (whatever that may be), you are no longer fighting an uphill battle. New containment "smooths" the damage output against different foes. When controllers have low damage anyway, avoiding the awfullness of heavily resisted damage is important.

POssible Objections:

1. ZOMG NERF!!!

Figures are up for debate. Its the principle. I calculate this would be a low damage nerf against unresisting enemies, and a significant damage buff against resistant ones and AV's. And it helps versus high defence enemies too.

2. ZOMG NERF FIRE/KINS!!!

I'd rather not get sidetracked, and you may feel this is another nerfherding thread. Fair enough, but a) There is a lot of feeling that Fire/Kin's are a problem which you may or may not disagree with and b) This provides an elegant solution which does not actually nerf Fire Control or Kinetics sets specifically but stops the out of control synergy of the two together.

3. ZOMG BUFF VS AV'S!!!

Yes, untyped damage is potentially dangerous, especially vs AV's. However, look more closely. Controllers have few damage attacks, of generally limited effectiveness. Untyped damage will not be high. Bear in mind in CANNOT get buffed, so Fulcrum Shifted, Fortitude'd, Assault'd, Metabolic Accelerat'd Utyped damage is not going to happen.

Possible Things to think about...

Alter untyped damage according to type of mez. Maybe 125% for held, 100% for stun/sleep, 75% for immobilise. The more power you have, the more you can bypass the enemies protection. This may help soloing/ST (the aim of containment?) whilst stopping out of control AoE damage (the role of blasters?)

Hold back your flaming, consider the figures plucked out of the ether, then.. any thoughts?

Earth's strength is fantastic "control", probably the best of all dominator primaries. ITs weakness is damage output. I would think /fire is a good match to compensate (its the most damage heavy secondary)

Word of advice though, Earth is stuffed full of AoE effects. Its *made* for teaming. I would suggest you consider edging towards a team build (where dominators shine anyway)

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A Defender who can heal can be a MUST for a teams survival, ofcouse a bubbler or TA can too, but it's mainly healing that will be required...

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You do realise that EVERY bubble power if about damage mitigation in one form or another? If your team is dying it will do far better with a bubbler than an empath.

In addition, Empathy has the WORST AoE: ST ration of any defender primary in the game. Meaning other sets will progressively outpower it as teams go from big to huge (in fairness, they will get worse as teams diminish).


A well slotted Bubbler with manuevers can get a team up to 43/44% defence. Have you any idea how good that is? It means the ENTIRE TEAM (bar bubbler admittidly) gets 85-90% damage mitigation. This is in addition to team mez resistance.

Now wait for it... this is with JUST THREE POWERS from the primary! (and one pool).

Sir, if you think an empath comes even close to this level of protection, you are sadly mistaken.

Could I just mention that PvP is still a small component of this game. Hence, the priority is to balance perma-dom for PvE first, PvP later.

Hate to say it,but the Devs screwed up on Perma Dom. It should have been nerfed ages ago. It still blatantly needs nerfing, but now a small number of people have grinded their way to a permadom build.

Personally, I say nerf. Please. now.

Any AT that has mez resistance, mag 4 mez effects, unlimited endurance, and peramanent damage bonus is NOT balanced. Its so far off being balanced its extrodinary. No other AT can come close. I dont care how long it took to get there - this is the important point - NO OTHER AT COULD GET THAT GOOD WITH EVEN INFINITE INF.

Now, it does need something to sweeten the pill with. I would suggest something like +5% HP (they need just that shade more survivability for teams) and +5-10% more duration to non-dom holds (they are just a little too weak hold wise when dom not up).

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Having taunt is not useful.


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Id have to disagree with you there. Unless one is being particularly pedantic in which case you could say no power is useful (bar passives) because you could not use it. Or, use it incorrectly.

But taunt IS useful, unless you wish to say that every hold, immobilise, stun, sleep, knockback, damage, debuff, fear, confuse, and pet power is also not useful.

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Tanking can be done perfectly well without Taunt and players should not be penalised for not taking a power they do not find useful. In a game with the freedom of choice that CoH offers I find it shameful that team leaders are refusing to take on members who do not have the desired powersets.

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Every player will find taunt useful. in a team.

Not having taunt is not discriminating against power sets. Every tank secondary has taunt and it is there for all to pick.

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If any of my team have less than full green health bars, I ain't doing things right.

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Thats the spirit. Such confidence means other team members will be working at peak efficiency, not worrying about themselves.

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all secondaries are good in pvp
some primaries are better bcoz of fast cast times

grav is a slow one

earth has - def inherent
fire is arubly the best for DoT and spiking
plant has inherent -def but is slow DoT and not really worth it

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Er? Grav a slow one?

Perhaps you should consider Propel, giving Grav the highest ST damage output of any controller (pets aside, but I having tried every controller pet I find Singularity the best of the bunch)

Solo, my gravity controller solo'd fastest. In fact, ill give order of my controllers (all played to level 38) in terms of soloability:

Grav / Rad first
Fire / Storm second
Earth / Sonic third
Ill / FF last

(I have played plant and ice dominators to level 50 and 41 respectively)

My order of pet superdupeness:

Singularity, Jack o Frost, Stoney, Imps, Phantasm, Venus Flycack (awful)

(PvP is a different matter of course, but again, the high spike damage of a Propel on a contained foe is the highest spike you will get as a controller primary)

Looking at your paramaters, you want an AoE heavy toon. AoE is king in big team PvE.

Given that, the most AoE you can cram in will probably be:

Scrapper: Spines/Dark (Possibly Fire/ or /Fire)
Tank: Dark/Fire (possibly Ice/)
Blaster: Fire/Fire (possibly AR/ or /Mental)
Controller: Earth (but almost anything but Grav) / Storm (but almost anything but Empath)
Defender: Anything but Empath / Rad (but almost anything but Ice)

Villain Side

Mastermind: Anything / Anything but Poison*
Corruptor: Fire or AR or Rad (avoid Ice) / Most*
Brute: Elec, Fire, BA, Mace, Stone / Fire or Dark
Stalker: Elec or Spines / Dark
Dominator: Most (probably avoid grav) / Fire or Psi

*Id think twice before getting traps too, dont work to well in large fast pace teams.

In addition, if you play a Corruptor, Mastermind, Controller, or Particularly defender, then leadership pools would be good.

Finally if you aim to be a task forcer, being a stealther and having recall freind always helps.

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Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.

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Chilling Embrace makes you more effective at holding aggro. Therefore never team with a tank without Chilling Embrace. End of story.

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I hope you understand thats misqouting me I just said taunt makes you more effective, end of story. Chilling Embrace also makes you more effective.

I never, ever, said dont EVER team with a tauntless tank, and I wouldnt say I wouldnt team with a non-ice tank.

But do I breathe easier when its an ice tank on the team? yes. Do I breath easier when the tank has taunt? yes. In both situations I will be more liberal with devastating AoE - maybe abit more, maybe a lot more. Depends on team.

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I'm agreeing with Max AND PRAF in the same thread on the same day? Something is definitely amiss...

Taunt isn't the be all and end all of efficient tanking, it's just another tool that contributes to it.

Having it will help you do it, but it doesn't follow that you won't do it (effectively) if you don't.

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Effectiveness is not a yes/no quality. Its a spectrum. Taunt makes you more effective at holding aggro. End of story.

you may be referring to "Suficient Effectiveness for team to survive" but thats another story...

Bear in mind that the more confident the team is in you / effective you are, the more they are likely to release AoE hell. The more they do that, the more effective the team becomes.