Circeus_NA

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FWIW, reduced Toggle Drops and Gauntlet working in PvP should help tankers teaming ability. If those don't set them within the 'acceptable' range, then we'll try something else.

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Well it all depends on what "reduced Toggle Drops" actually means. Us not knowing the numbers far from produces warm fuzzies. My feeling is that if anything still has a 100% chance to drop or can drop more than one toggle, then you've not gone far enough.

Gauntlet will help, but only on a proactive level. And its still not clear if this will cover Taunt Auras like Invincibility and Chilling Embrace.

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I kind of feel sorry for Masterminds when I do a fly-by KO Blow on them... Then I remember they're evil, evil villains!

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Not evil. Misunderstood.

I can attest. As an Ice Tank, I try to taunt and drag along the pets to maintain buffs and End.

Chilling Embrace getting -Damage.

Me telling them the change to Chilling Embrace was bad, backing it up with numbers, and then changing it.

Me convincing Statesman to change Frozen Armor and Glacial Armor from 15% DEF to 17% DEF.

Complaints about Wet Ice still taking DEF enhancements even thought it only offered a 0.5% base, now it offers 1.0% and doesn't take enhancements.

Gauntlet was an idea that specifically came from the forums.

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But (and point me the discrepency if I missed it) until we find a testable - and well outside of margin of error - issue between Iakona's numbers and yours, we might as well look at them.

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So then you're agreeing with me? Because that's what I said.

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In fact, the very fact that the tables exist suggests that they might used additively: tables are often used to "precalculate" multiplicative formulas. Sometimes they are used in true multiplicative scalers (when there is little choice), and sometimes not.

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Well, okay I wanted to go back and comment on this a second. I'm a programmer. In various applications I've worked on (specifically I can think of printing and fingerprint inspection) I've used similar tables to the ones iakona is posting. The thing is that in they're text form they are not the table that's used. They are generally used to populate the actual LUTs used when the program is running.

Why? Because there's no fast, quick way to look up somethign in a textual table programatically. So they generally get read in and stored as LUTs and/or Hash tables.

Why then have textual tables? Simple, ease of update. If you program (hard code) all those tables by hand, then any changes will require a recompile of your code. Keep your tables in text files, and there's no need for that.

The fun part then becomes this. Tables when read in only need be guidelines, only part of them need be used, or their numbers can be formulated when populating a LUT, etc. The sky is the limit there.

This is again, why I say the tables can't always be taken at face value. And that in terms of how they're used, there can be a higher formulaic truth to it - the numbers need not be used verbatim.

As for the (2 - X) formula to arrive at the 0 to +10 numbers? That was a simplification of (1 + (1 - X)) and I probably should have stated that because conceptually it demonstrates that the table is somewhat a reflection of itself around zero. To me that speaks volume because to me both Math and Programming are art, and that sort of use of numbers is artistic. And that feeling leads me to feel that its right - especially since it matches numbers that were previously used.

Actually I was referencing the client as god - don't let it go to your head

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Could be anything from QA testing aids to predictive analysis to a nasty bug in the compiler. While I doubt Cryptic runs by Zen programming, it could be any one of a thousand reasons.

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Right, there are a number of commands that normal users don't have access to, that probably use those tables for certain debug related things. That said, it doesn't mean that the tables are necessarily kept up to date, at all. In fact, I've seen some games that I'm known for having "intervened upon" that included similar tables clientside for similar reasons, and eventually use of those tables was abandoned, as was updating them, but they were left around for legacy reasons.

I think the tables are nice, but one should always question their use. Its like this... if god came down from the heavens and handed scientists a complete map of DNA strands for all living organisms on Earth, do you think the scientists would trust it outright or verify it against what they already know?

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So, what's the deal here? What are you basing your (1 + .09 * level) numbers from, other than arbitrarily subtracting from 2?

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They came from a post by the devs that was from late 2004 and I don't believe can be found on the forums anymore. Someone took them, dropped them into a spreadsheet which FoP held onto for a while as the home, and has since moved to Coldfront (according to the old FoP homepage). And looks like it can be found at the end of this article:

http://coh.coldfront.net/index.php/content/view/255/58/

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Now, according to the numbers you posted in your guide (EDIT: the numbers posted by Geko, which you claim are wrong), and the data in Circeus' spreadsheet (which I have a copy of), the tohit chance for a player vs. lower level villain is (Set 1) * 0.75, or (Set 1) * BaseToHit; however, for a player vs. higher level villain up to +4 and for a lower level villain (using the numbers you say are more accurate than Geko's), it is exactly (Set 1) - 0.25, or (Set 1) - (1 - BaseToHit), and does not match your 1.09, 1.18, 1.27, 1.36 progression.

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I think you're looking at it wrong. Look at my chart from +10 to -10:

Mob +Level ToHit Lvl Mod
10 1.9993
9 1.9200
8 1.8534
7 1.6667
6 1.5467
5 1.4534
4 1.3600
3 1.2667
2 1.1867
1 1.0940
0 1.0000
-1 0.9060
-2 0.8133
-3 0.7330
-4 0.6400
-5 0.5466
-6 0.4553
-7 0.3333
-8 0.1466
-9 0.0800
-10 0.0666


From +0 to +10 Set 1 reads:

0 1
1 0.9
2 0.81
3 0.73
4 0.64
5 0.55
6 0.45
7 0.33
8 0.15
9 0.08
10 0.05

Those numbers match 0 through -10 mob level on my chart (except for the last one, but I'm willing to adjust).

Now watch the magic. Take each number and formulate it through the formula (2 - X) where X is the number:

0 1
1 1.1
2 1.19
3 1.27
4 1.36
5 1.45
6 1.55
7 1.67
8 1.85
9 1.92
10 1.95

Looks familiar, no?

And for the record, Statesman isn't the only red-name who looked over my spreadsheets. Castle did too, in fact he directed me to some formula errors on the sheets way back.

EDIT: And one thing I think you tend to get sidetracked by is that you put too much stock into the decimal places in the table. Which makes you presume that the table is dead on balls accurate decimalwise. And I remain unconvinced on that point. Especially here where we're talking about a table in the client that isn't even used clientside. ToHit is a server function. And these tables are likely just text dumps of programatic tables in many cases. Don't loose sight of that.

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but here was our intent with these Contacts - reward Exploration. Reward people who poke around to find new things. Now, the down side is that once found, these Contacts don't inform the player about what it takes to unlock them.

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Well tries to tell you but does a lousy job of it (Archmage Taraxius, sp?)

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Currently the badge is given to ANY team or player-not-on-a-team that does 25% or more damage to the Giant Monster.

When Giant Monsters get tougher (Issue 7), this number will drop to 10%(or more), encouraging more teams to fight them. The rewards will be increasing as well.

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Except there is at least one set of circumstances where even if you're the only group to attack the Giant Monster no one will get the badge or kill credit.

I know this for a fact, I was on a team of 4, one person is a forum Regular like me (Fuzun) and we fought Ghost of Scrapyard from a full health bar all the way down, and no one on the team who did not already have the badge got the badge. There was no kill credit message, no XP, no infamy, and no debt payoff. Nothing.

Support wouldn't do anything about it. But its there, and its a bug.

The Mighty Quinn

Physical Description

Name: Mahate Quintok
Alias: The Mighty Quinn
Age: 9,000 years give or take
Eye Color: Yellow Glow
Hair Color: Red/Orange
Height: 7' 6"
Weight: 1000 lbs

Origin

There are things in this universe which one looks at and can only bring themselves to say “ewww!” – for example, insects. And then there are things whose majesty and splendor has been speculated about for eons.

Take the comet. Even with modern science one can not possibly be certain of the contents that comprise the comet. We are certain there is ice. We are certain there are various ores. But we are not sure what mysteries lay inside a comet. There is only so much a spectrographic analysis from hundreds of thousands if not millions of miles away can provide. And so we can only sit back and speculate endlessly for surely no one has ever seen a comet up close.

Roughly 9,000 years ago...

Wrapped in his furs, spear in hand; Mahate Quintok followed the great tusked beast through the icy wastes. He had been lucky to spot this one several days ago, and even luckier to mortally wound it. But that was several days ago, and it had been moving steadily slower the more it bled – its time to die had finally come and his people would dine well on its meat. Then he would at last earn leadership among his tribe’s warriors.

Drawing on that thought, he edged closer to the beast until he had maneuvered onto a ledge above it, unseen. Raising his Spear high above his head with two hands he prepared to leap down onto the beast and drive his spear home for the final blow.

Suddenly he heard a noise not unlike that of his own spear flying through the air, only much, much louder. He looked up in time to see a large bright object streaking down through the sky toward him. For a several moments he wondered what the object was, then he though of how beautiful it looked all ablaze and with various colors washing off of it.

Whether it was for protection or to possibly get a chance to touch its splendor he could not tell you, but, dropping his spear, he reached out his hands towards it. Never even having a chance to consider what was happening, as the cold washed over and enveloped him. And there he stood frozen in time for several millennia – no longer quite human.

1000 years ago...

During his time in hibernation, the guiding hand of Mother Nature had assured him safe passage to the farthest reaches of the southern hemisphere. And using the warmth of the sun she thawed him from his icy cocoon. He fell to the ground, unaffected by its bitter cold, drew in a breath, and exhaled an icy chill.

As he stood, the ground seemed to stand with him, frozen chunks of tundra rolling off his body. Concentrating for a moment the pieces rose from the ground and surrounded his form with an icy mass. He looked around and the glare did not bother him for it was far less than the brightness of the last thing he had seen.

Within himself he sensed a desire to protect this land and its creatures, specifically the ones known as penguins. And with a great leap he propelled himself forward.

Mother Nature smiled down on the wasteland as she watched its new protector, the Mighty Quinn, leap away. She had chosen well.

Several months ago...

The foul creatures known as Rikti had caused far reaching disruptions in the Earth’s ecosystem, and as a result Mother Nature was injured. It would take some time for her wounds to heal, but, through her pain, she saw that her planet was in great need.

For a thousand years she had watched Mighty Quinn in his tireless efforts to protect the lands of the southern continent. And he had done well. But now it was time to have him serve an even greater purpose.

She would send him to the shores of northern continent of Laurentia. To a gathering place for a multitude of men, women, and other creatures that are akin to gods and goddesses. She would have him go to Paragon City where he could mete out justice in his own special way.

Since arriving in Paragon City, Quinn has become quite fond of pigeons.

Ooo hey cool, I'm in there!!! That's what I get for hanging out with Windy

Less a question, and more a gripe, but one I think you need to address...

With CoV, now contacts are unlocked by badges. Conceptually this is a great idea, except it has one major problem - the game does absolutely nothing to introduce players to badges. And I think that will bar players who don't frequent the forums, or "cheat" type sites from content.

Now at least in terms of kill badges, and mission badges, and exploration badges a character may happen upon them, and therefore accidentally learn about them.

However, lets look at Archmage Tarixus. He unlocks with a history badge, Lorekeeper. There is nothing in game that teaches you about history badges. You have to know ahead of time. Sure he tells you go learn certain knowledge from these four zones... but that's not clear. Smarter would have been to give him a mission that guides a person through that badge. It would therefore take you through learning about history badges by actually getting one and the bonus of unlocking the contact.

Lets look further at Archmage Tarixus. He then offers a mission that gives out an Achievement badge: Soul Taker. If that badge were to be used in an Accolade later on (with I7 as you've said), you've pretty much locked many people out of this accolade because people who don't come here likely don't know about history badges, don't know how to get one to unlock Tarixus, and therefore won't have a shot at the badge he offers, and therefore never get the Accolade.

Veluta is interesting also, I think that conceptually killing X mobs to get unlock a contact is perfect. Now to unlock her though you need to actually capture the ghosts. Interesting to say the least, because nothing in game teaches you about capturing ghosts, its another thing you have to happen upon, unless you come here.

Also she's in the wrong level range. Most of the ghosts around Fort Hades are around level 15, she's a level 10-15 contact. My guess is that she should be a level 10-20 contact, so that people can actually have a decent chance of getting the badge and unlocking her before they outlevel her.

Now perhaps the worst example of unlocking after Archmage Tarixus is Doc Buzzsaw. He requires the Bling badge to unlock - the first infamy badge. Problem is he's a level 25-30 contact. This means that in order to unlock him you'd have to remain out of supergroup mode from level 24 on so that you were getting full infamy, which is the only way you'll earn enough from infamy from killing mobs and completing missions by level 29 - since while he'll work with you at level 30, you must start his arc while level 29 or you won't see his arc.

Why? Because at level 24 in SG-mode you get progressively less infamy per kill, and most of your infamy will come instead from selling enhancements. But that infamy doesn't count towards the badge.

Also, any badge that unlocks a contact should get a bar. That the Bling badge doesn't have a bar is ridiculous. People should always be able to gauge their progress towards something like unlocking a contact.

Is okay, I know I have a big head

The only time BaseToHit isn't 50% is when players attack mobs, right? At that time its 75%. Otherwise is there even an instance when its not 50%?

Forgive me because I'm not used to looking at your exact terms for the formula, I generally use a more simplified version of it because I generally am not dealing with buffs/debuffs or insps, or enhancements.

I'm also trying to not context switch myself too much since I'm deep into something at work.

But can you give me a brief on where insps and enhancements fit into your formula.

Indeed I am... it'll take a bit to wrap my head around this...

That said, from what I can tell the basic formula was changed from (CoreAcc is 50%):

(CoreAcc * conmult * levelmult) - DEF

to

(CoreAcc - DEF) * conmult * levelmult

It does raise some questions to me, like where to buffs/debuffs and +Acc now fit into the equation?

Your thoughts?

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I'm not a sissy! I'm just afraid of Iron Vixen!

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What's the worst that could happen? She might REAR END you.

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She'd AssAssinate me for sure. It'd be the end of me.

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And thus the tail^H^Hle was told

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What's the worst that could happen? She might REAR END you.

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That was just ... man that was bad.

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Oh c'mon like you wouldn't enjoy it if it happened to you

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I'm not a sissy! I'm just afraid of Iron Vixen!

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What's the worst that could happen? She might REAR END you.

Will the EB'd AVs still count towards the AV badges? Specifically on the CoH side: Dimensional Warder

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Actualy, since CE Taunts, the the mob are less likly to run, and will turn back into an attack sometimes. I wonder if any other of the taunt auras help? [/color]

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No amount of Taunts will turn around a true runner.

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I've also not experienced this phenomemon with my Brutes or Stalkers, so it's a CoH problem at the very least, and probably specific to Tankers.

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I'm also guessing (pure guess) that Ice Tankers running Chilling Embrace experience the problem less since things are moving from it at a much slower pace.

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Came on to this thread late... is this just a Tanker issue or do scrappers have this problem also (title says "melee" and doesn't specifiy)? And is Taunt affected by this in PvE?

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We, the players (since there's not been dev voice on this), feel that its related to Gauntlet and the fact that it makes every power effectively AoE. Why? Because they mentioned a few patches ago that they fixed a bug involving *some* AoE powers and runners.