CatMan

"It's good to be the King"

hint: a Mel Brooks Film

Tim Cup emote... for those times we end up in jail.

You somehow expect a Dev with the name Recluse to be talkative? Statesman I understand, but Recluse?

It's all in the name... how appropriate.

I'm at work... what it is?

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... Patrols have been cut in size by half. The mission difficulty fix is being tested on the Training Room server. ...

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If it is really on the Training Room, it is not working. I have tested several missions with copied toons. The missions on TR are spawning just like they are on Guardian.

Additionally the +1 Bosses are chain casting stuns, sleeps, holds and AoEs. For a L11 Scrapper it is impossible to defeat a +1 Boss (Bone Daddy) who is aided by a +1 Lt. Personally I have seen no difference in the missions on TR under the current patch.

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Isn't that why you can test it on the test server? To see if it works as they say it should and if not /bug it?

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Have the devs discussed a separate site for the TR forums? Or maybe just have them "hidden" lower in the forum listing?


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Why? There is no logical reason that Adults and Teens cannot grasp the concept that the Training Room (for the test server) is for the test server's issues. There may be some confusion, but to say that some confusion should result in a systematic change is silly.

It would be nice if people gave up being arm-chair conspiracy theorists...

Expansion 2? Was there an Expansion 1? Or did you really mean Issue #3? Has it been a long day for you?

SSOCS... please don't delay. I can think of so many people who would be bitterly disapointed if you delayed.

Oh, and I thought you mentioned something about Sonic and Bow powersets for Issue 3. Was that a rumor as well?

Just to play Devil's Advocate:

While he replied to the threads in the training room, it appears from the context that he (and by implication the Devs) did not see the extent to which the +1 villains occaisioned themselves. In other words: they knew of +1 villains but did not think it was a bug because they assumed the occurance was infrequent rather than frequent.

"This is not occuring in any greater % than they were previously"... By what measure? When you have a mission that is front loaded, the instances of having +1s are, obviously at the front with subsequent groups getting lower till you get to the -2. It's possible they assumed the frequency of +1s would be limited to 1 or 2 groups within the mission. A small percentage (5%) rather than 50% or more.

The "bug" then, was not so much +1s being in the mission but that they were occuring with far greater frequency than intended. I imagine whatever code they had that varied the levels +2/-2 with front or back loading was not fully tweaked.

It would be interesting to see a more lengthy explanation as to what the bug is/was and how it was they didn't notice it occuring everywhere.

Compare the two quotes from Statesman:
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This is not occuring in any greater % than they were previously

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and
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I cannot stress enough - the +1 mobs everywhere are a BUG

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Assumption: The Devs knew +1s could occur, but did not expect them to occur everywhere. In my opinion, I would not call this a lie or even deceptive. In my opinion, taking what is said at face value, they made a mistake by assuming people were whining about infrequent +1s when in reality they were very frequent. They made a mistake. They admit that mistake. The mistake was that they did not notice. Notice what? Notice the frequency of it occuring. The mistake was also that they did not take the complaint seriously enough. The 'why' to that is another reason that we most likely will not have insight into.

I'm not doing this so much as to defend but to point out that a case can be made for him to be admitting the correct mistake: failure to notice the occurance was everywhere and not the absence of said occurance.

Fair enough. While the combat pace is very FPS, it does get old against AI. I think CoV will make the game more interesting overall and perhaps, if you are still around, you will enjoy it far more than you do now. I too come from a heavy FPS background with RTS games thrown in. My MMO experience is far more shallow than yours, but then the reasons I could not get into them are the reasons CoH lacked and that attracted me.

I can see where you are coming from about wanting to feel like a superhero in CoH. But what does that mean? What does it mean to be a superhero? I know we fight super villains. But what, in your mind, makes one a super hero?

I think, in many ways, your experience with other MMORPGs has jaded you and made you cynical. Perhaps I am wrong, but that is the impression I get. Given what I hear about other MMOs, I don't think I blame you. I know that I am somewhat cynical when it comes to Big House Production companies (not their contracted developers mind you) such as Sierra/Vivendi or Microsoft or Strategy First. But that is becuase I have seen them 'rush' games out the door.

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Finally, at the behest of Garriott et al/NCsoft I think Statesman
will, if not sooner then later, turn CoH into EQ in capes and
tights.

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I truely hope not. If it comes to that, I can assure you my attachments to CoH are readily breakable. EQ but with Super Heros is not my cup of tea. I would sooner go back to playing NeverWinterNights for my RPG fix than continue playing a CoH that tried to be "other".

But, I don't see that as happening... maybe you can enlighten me as to why you would think that?

Actually, I like the outcasts having ranged attacks that have umph now. Also, the only Outcasts I have seen using Heal Other are the Shocker Lts. Maybe I missed it, but they are the only ones I have seem. As for being forced to solo them: well, yeah, the frequency of Lts and Bosses is less with fewer teammates. But that has been true before the patch as well.

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P.S. I also find myself rather sceptical about claims that this is a bug that's being fixed. We seem to hear that a lot lately about changes to the game that turn out to be unpopular and I tend to think that at least some of the time it's just an easy excuse.


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Given the various apologies when something goes wrong and admissions I've seen in the forums of mistakes on the part of the developers, I think you are wrong. It most likely is a bug that few people /bugged in game as they should have and most of the forum comments were few and sparse and never commented on by the devs. I see no reason to not take them at face value when they say "It is a bug and we are working on fixing it". Besides, solving the bug may or may not (nod to Vegie here) be easy.

About Min/Maxers: I agree 100%. In City of Heros it does not make a heck of a lot of difference when or if you reach your level cap in relation to other players. My being level 10 and you being level 50 does not make a whole lot of difference except for you since you have run out of content. If there are only a minority (less than 50%) of min/maxers, you actually affect everybody else who is not a min/maxer when you try to slow them down.

With a game intended for casual players, min/maxers should be at the lower end of the scale. Now, the mission XP increases are meant to bolster those who don't "power game". That is nice for the causual player. Chained missions that end in a timed mission or missions that are not clear that having "another player" would be good, are unfair towards the causual player.

Come PvP: we don't know diddly about PvP when it arrives. However, being level 50 still won't make a lot of difference in it since you don't have loot, crafts, etc... Where it will make a difference is in available powers and their enhancements. But, between the SK and Exemplar system, I think I see a way where that "advantage" can be minimized.

So, here is the gist: is the game becoming more casual player friendly or not? I doubt casual players noticed the Purple Patch after version 2 of it. I know it was noticable but not obvious in version 1 of it. Missions, which the casual player will engage in more than not, had their XP upped. The dynamic of creating situations where you have to have another player is problematic, especially at lower levels which should see the greatest soloability (if I recall the tiering from early on), but not impossible. The addition of looking for players across zones as well as being able to hide oneself is a great benefit for those who discover they need help in a mission or wish to avoid teaming and solo a little.

So, to sum up: Unless Min/Maxers are the majority of players, slowing down leveling makes little sense (especially given the earlier Gaffer quote I mentioned ). Altitis solves many of the 'boredom' issues. I think more is being done to boost the casual players experience who does missions than not.

Certainly the onus is on the Developer and Producer to make sure their work is of acceptable quality. But there is only so much you can test for given staffing limitations. Creating the Test server was a good call and a requested by the community at that. Are we helping them do their job? Yes. Are we to blame for not helping them? No and yes.

Game companies have public open and closed betas for a reason. The more eyes you have looking at something, the more likely it is that issues will be caught. Whose fault is it when an known issue goes live? The Developers of course. The reasons why, however, are another matter. Perhaps they felt the issue was not serious enough to delay release. Maybe delaying release would do more harm than the issue? (I am assuming here) Maybe the reason something was released was that not enough information became available about the severity of the issue - lack of testers experiencing the problem, difficulty in replicating and thus finding the cause of an issue.

The opportunity of the community to test a patch that will effect them and thus give feed back is invaluable. I can think of several things during the testing of Issue 2 that were addressed by the Devs (Ice Patch and Ice Slick for example).

aside: I think it is a mistake to argue from silence concerning the +1 villains that the devs are trying to cover their tracks by now saying "Its a bug".

Anyways, at the point that testers recall they need to submit bug reports and otherwise make it easier to address discovered bugs the fault lies on the developers for releasing Issue 2 in such a condition. Given the number of people who cry 'nerf' when something could be a bug, I am given to the impression that a lot of people may have 'tested' without submitting one single bug report over something they thought was amiss. It is not very easy to know when something is a bug, a feature, or a nerf. Is the new version of Teleport a bug or a feature? I don't recall an indication there was a change to it from the various patch notes. But it seems to be an improvement, so do I /bug it and run the risk of seemingly beneficial feature being removed (after all, it was stated that the continuation of momentum after a TP was initially a feature)or remain silent and hope it was simply an oversight that it was left out of the notes?

I just recall thinking the comment was, in and of itself, funny given slow down in leveling and the tendancy to try various alts. Spin? Sure, why not. Most try to make the best of a bad situation.

Anyways, that still is another topic... tho it is conveinent to talk about it here since it was brought up and not entirely unrelated. The leveling speed does drop off noticably after level 12. I've noticed many of those in my Super Group who do not have dedicated Mains tend to jump to a new alt between level 12 and 14. The pleasure of seeing "LEVEL UP" and the little explosion and ding is undeniably pleasant.

Maybe you and I can agree that leveling is a chore, enjoyable for the most part, but a chore none-the-less. Given a certain time frame of expectations how does one balance? How soon will a player become bored and quit? How to spread the content out and the leveling process to keep interest as long as possible? How to balance between someone playing 5 hours a week vs. someone playing 40 and both getting bored for lack of leveling or content? How to keep people playing without it being a chore?

Chore wise, CoH is pretty clean. The leveling aspect is the only chore in the game. Trying various combinations of classes and builds with my Super Group lends to the long term enjoyment of CoH. City of Villains will add another dimension that will really be entertaining. I know my buddies are looking forward to it's arrival (all of us come from competitive play backgrounds - be it RTS, FPS, or RPG).

But the main thing: How do you balance it so that the person who plays 5 hours gets as much enjoyment and satisfaction as the one who plays 40 hours without the latter using the formers perks to "power level".

... rambling... sorry.

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And brother, I can safely say I'm glad I'm not there this week..

Bet they are having fun..

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I think we both agree there.

...what was really funny was a comment by Statesman or one of the other Devs in which they expressed surprise that so FEW people were at level 40 when Issue 1 went out. I think they attributed most of that to the Altitis some people (myself included) suffer from. But, the Purple Pach, version 1 and 2, certainly slowed things down. I never hunted Purples on purpose, but when you have to fight them, it is annoying to miss them.

However, all that is another topic in and of itself since lower levels level faster than higher levels - debt or not.

I have programed features that resulted in bugs... In my business we call it Unintended Consequence.

I am not arguing about the various low level villains with high level powers. They are making agjustments to those, but I have yet to see where they called that a bug. The +1 issue they are calling a bug. and the earliest post about it was 9/11 and seemed a bit burried with other comments. As for people /bugging it in game... well, only they would know.

The nice thing is that I am not seeing -1 and -2 villains, which is what they were trying to fix from what I've read.

Still, despite your fortune, you have yet to actually be where it counts.

You assume to much Vegie.

I never said they said: "oops, it's a bug" after letting it go live. What I am saying is you assume their intentions and they let Issue 2 go live before it's time. I, personally, would not have done so till more of the bugs were addressed. Nor was I putting forth my "assumption" about the code as if it were any more valid than anybodies elses. I put it out there to remind people that there is more than one explanation as to what might be going on.

Until you get access to the inner sanctums of Cryptic Studios and NCSoft, don't talk as if you *know*.

Actually, the current "poor man's" difficulty slider when in a team is to have one or two drop from the team before entering the mission and then rejoin. Of course, that only lowers the difficulty rather than increase it.

I imagine the difficulty slider will allow you to UP the difficulty as well as lower it. Just how that will be manifested is another issue (Higher levels? More Villains? etc...).

As for Testing: Many eyes are better than fewer, so having a test server is a benefit not only to the Developers but the players as well. Besides, a lot of people enjoy seeing how something will/should effect them before it goes live.

The main thing that "annoys" me about Vegie and others, is that they make assumptions about what the devs think. If there were cries about something and it was completely ignored and never addressed, maybe then you could say "they don't care", but in reality you cannot, even with the +1 business.

Case in point: People are also assuming the +1 mission issue is a simple fix. I may not be and that they knew about it before release and continue to know about without it being fixed (but working on it according to them) may indicate it is a more complicated issue than just: "Doh! Let me recode that from +1 to 0."

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Well lets hope not with the next issue. I hope that the DEVS learned that when the testers tell them that something is wrong, or its too hard or any other thing they think is wrong while its still in test that they listen.


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I agree. Hopefully they can resist the pressure to prematurely release Issue 3. I wonder where the pressure to release Issue 2 when they did came from the most.

Bugs are something you tend to react to. A Reactive approach to a new bug is to be expected. There are poractive measures, to be sure, but they prevent bugs at most. Even then, the most proactive measures do not ensure bug free software. Laws of unintended consequence... etc. etc.

While I was surprised that Issue 2 was released when it was, I can understand some of the reasoning: the main part of Issue 2 was working. Other things were being worked on and the natives were getting restless. Damned if you do, damned if you don't operate here as in the majority of business: You cannot please everybody at once.

But all that means diddly really. People make mistakes, it is a given, but I think the biggest mistake people make is to assume they *KNOW* what others are thinking or intend. The Thought Police are alive and kicking.

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The ignorance of the gaming populace never ceases to amaze me.

I will reiterate in the hopes of penetrating your neutronium skulls:

Issue #2 ran on internal test servers LONG before any of you
saw it on the player test server.

They knew exactly what they had when they released it.

Now you go on believing it was a "bug" and I will go on believing
that Statesman knew exactly what he had when he published.


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Dear, dear Vegie: Do know that Issue 2 was released with known and unknown bugs. However, you still use rather selective statements out of their overall context to support your trolling exercise.

Statesman comment 1
Statesman comment 2

There are others as well.

Valdermic on bugs... Perhaps you should consider all things carefully before you speak as if you were the authority on peoples intentions and motives.

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I'm sorry, but according to Statesman this is more "fun".



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Context is a wonderful thing, learn to apply it. The bug is being worked on.

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This process is taking several hours.

Send money to WeirdBeard to speed things up.

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You do realize that sets a very bad precident. However, since you just set it: Who do I send the check to to permanently give my main the Undead Slaying Axe?