Blood Red Arachnid

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  1. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    I know SnowGlobe can be a bit pedantic, but I've never seen one of his trials last more than fourteen, fifteen hours max including instructions.
    Not sure if serious. The 20 hours is the reward penalty time. Once a player runs the trial, they aren't going to get the same rewards so they aren't going to run the trial again until they can get the rewards again. The exception to this rule is if a player decides to run the trial again despite rewards out of charity or if they really like that trial.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
    I find it interesting that the problem is seen to lie entirely with the player base, and not the trials themselves. I would argue that the nature of the trial designs, in their misguided approach to providing "a challenge", have produced these antagonistic conditions. They create a perceived need to filter out certain characters, be it by level shift, IO build, AT, or whatever. If they weren't so gimmicked out the butt, with this level shift nonsense as a cruch mechanic, I don't think we'd be in this position (of either having to filter, or having to argue for/against it in a forum).

    We shouldn't be criticizing the players for trying to compensate for bad game design/mechanics. We should be criticizing the mechanics for fostering harsh divisions of character/player capabilities. In the standard 1-50 game, differences in level is mitigated by the sidekicking system. But there is nothing equivalent in the Incarnate system that mitigates the differences between 50s and 50+3s on the same league. It is a mechanical rift that can't be compensated for mechanically; one can only hope that some combination of player skill and non-combat AT benefits will make up the difference. Good luck with that given how most trials run with at least half the league composed of melee characters whose primary value is in either dishing out or taking massive amounts of damage.

    Oh, and to the poster who asked how anyone could fail MoM, it is worth mentioning (again) that MoM is the only trial in which the final AV fight must be accomplished in less than 3 minutes. The only success vector available is overwhelming DPS, and that is where the purple patch hamstrings any league not composed of enough level-shifted damage dealers.
    Definitely interesting. However, something that I always take issue with is the perceive-ability. A person's outlook, whether seeing hope in the void or despair in the light, is that person's responsibility. Their opinions are also their own responsibility. "You're making me perceive things that way" even sounds kind of silly, as if there is a mind-control device that is forcibly changing other people's opinions.

    I try to convince everyone otherwise. On virtue I was the first person I saw who started hosting MoM trials with a 51+ only requirement where previously it was all 53s with specific ATs. And it work great, winning far more often than losing, but unfortunately I have yet to get any of the other leaders to be convinced from success after success. After going "Hey everyone, it works great like this and everyone can do this and I'll continually show you it works great like this", and people aren't convinced, this makes me question whether or not they even can be convinced. If they won't listen to reason or will ignore practice, then I'm powerless to change their perception. I feel the devs may be in the same boat.

    This leaves me perplexed about their behaviors. I talk with them, but their reasons don't always make sense in light of contradictory evidence. It isn't about reasoning at this point. So now me and Snow are going to get into a testosterone fight.

    I do wonder what kind of challenge that the devs can put into the game that doesn't require level shifts, though. I talk about this with Arcanaville later, so to save space I'll just direct to the end of this post.


    I remember the only time I've ever seen a league fail at the end fight of MoM. It was a very strange problem that, thanks to someone's joke, I call the lemming tactic. The standard strategy for the final AV fight is to summon temp pets, buff, then rush the AV. This league had an... initiative problem. That is, they wouldn't attack the AV until a lot of people were already attacking the AV. This kept rearing it's ugly head through the trial, with the whole "lets wait two minutes before fighting Malaise" and "lets wait in the starting room until an Eye of the Storm is up". So, in the final AV fight, when we have all of our pets and and we go to charge the AV, everyone is just standing around while the AV snipes them. I run ahead and start fighting the AV thinking that other people will run up, but they don't. So here I am, a level 53 Dom with no resistances or defense to speak of, tanking the AV. Of course I get slaughtered, and then the next brave soul who runs up gets slaughtered, and then the next one gets slaughtered... repeat the process. It wasn't until after a full minute that the brutes on the team decided to start attacking the final AV, but at that point over half the league had wiped and wasn't able to recover. At the end of the trial I was all like "Just a tip to everyone, ONE AT A TIME DOESN'T WORK!!!".

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tyger View Post
    Not to mention the overhanging "Des-rez" time penalty. The last trial I was on failed for exactly that reason by two players taking the rez at the same time when we had 35 seconds left. The final AV.... was at 1/100 health when the timer ran out. So I quit. No more trials, no more stress.
    You don't get des-rez during the final AV fight...

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Golden Girl View Post
    That applies to teams in general 
    It happens on virtue, too. We get dozens of people standing around all going "LF trial!" but no one starts it. I think my record time for forming a full UG is 30 seconds.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
    I myself have personally spoken out frequently and often about players getting excluded from teams for all kinds of reasons. In my opinion, you should play whatever you want and if the team is any good, most of the time whatever you want is going to be good enough. The team has to be pretty shaky to begin with if one scrapper without mez protection or a petless mastermind brings the whole thing down.

    But I do make an exception for tasks which have a proven track record of failing when certain power levels are not met. If you want to attempt a four player Eden trial, and you find three other daredevils, that's cool. But by the same token if those four players decide that isn't going to work so its not worth the effort, that's cool also.

    Asking for lots of level shifts and incarnate powers in BAF, or Lambda, or even Keyes is probably overkill. I've seen them succeed many times without them. But MoM, TPN, and Underground all have aspects to them that can make them impossible to complete with leagues below a certain power level. And in some cases, you won't know until you've spent a long time getting to that point. Given that, if league leaders decide to only lead leagues that satisfy certain minimum requirements, I don't consider it elitism if they feel they are severely impacting the odds of success by not adhering to those standards.

    You can run Apex with a team full of non-incarnates, but you're going to lose. Its not elitist to ask for players to be at least Alpha slotted. For Underground, MoM, TPN, and DD I don't think its as bad, but I do think its a judgment call on the league leaders.
    This raises the question of what can be considered elitism. After all, min/maxing, exclusion, stringent requirements, specific powers, all of those are there to increase the odds of success. Elitism itself seems to be to increase the odds of success, so it is hard to make a distinction. The litmus test I always use for elitism is whether or not you are excluding a player for matters other than their playing skill. If you are excluding via AT, not slotting IOs, Levels, and their kin then this is a case of elitism. A player that is merely doing what they can to make themselves better isn't itself elitist, but the moment when that extends to discriminating against another player is the moment that it extends past the line.

    Also, at what point does having those requirements become elitism? I myself tend to host MoMs with a +1 requirement (and I'll willingly break it if we have a lot of +3 teammates or if they're a support toon with nice buffs). Is it when players are hosting things with +3 only? Is it when players are requiring IO sets? Is it when players are only asking for specific ATs or Power sets? The scale of exclusion rears applies here, too. I run MoM with the +1 requirement not because it isn't nice to have a team of only 53s with IOs stomp the trial blindfolded, but because I am trying to get as many people as possible on board while still retaining victory. My actions are not to see if we can win as easy as possible, but if we can just win even by the skin of our teeth. Sometimes I think even the +1 requirement isn't necessary.

    Though I do think that the level shifts are a bit of a case of trickery with the numbers. Something I brought up once is that, though the Warwalkers in the UG trial are level 55, they have 0% resist to all forms of damage. This makes them less durable than Nighstar and Siege, and arguably even Antimatter though they don't have level shifts. Something else I mentioned in the beta forums is how most of the difficulty of the trial is based upon the mechanics. I mean, sure the Avatar of Hamidon is level 55 and has resists to everything, but I have yet to find a team that both didn't have issues with his confuse and didn't beat him. If you overcome that confuse, he becomes a big wall of HP that you whittle down. To these, I wonder what exactly lends to success: is it the level shifts, or is it better tactics and strategy? From my experience, it certainly isn't the lack of levels that is getting me killed; it's all those gimmicks and sometimes the incompetence of a player(s).

    I also wonder how it is you can put difficulty into the game despite stats being an integral part of the game. Increasing the stats needs stat increases to counteract them or very specific strategies requiring specific powers in certain amounts. Gimmicks need precision, and the more precision is needed the more prone to mistakes and idiocy it becomes. I can't really figure it out, and I don't expect someone else to off-hand.
  2. As much as I would love to improve tankers, increasing the caps isn't going to do a thing for me since I never fight at the cap.
  3. Alright, this is a problem that has been plaguing me for awhile now. Originally I thought that if I changed computers it would go away, but even on my brand new $1800 machine this happened the day I started playing on it. Whenever I play the UG trial, the computer has a 99% chance of giving me an assertion failure in the middle of the trial. On the old machine this was marked by a drastic lag spike. On my new machine, it just happens with no warning whatsoever. This is unfortunate, since it makes my entire computer freeze for several minutes.

    I assume this is a mac problem, since I haven't seen it happen to anyone else. Does anyone know what might be going on? I tried using /reloadgfx and /unloadgfx but those had no effect.
  4. Sounds decent. Though it would have to all come from the same recipe, or else we'll be getting drops for 50 or so different primaries that no one else can use.
  5. I use them all the time. The main ones I use are Plasmatic Taser, Envenomed Dagger, and Backup Radio. I have been known to use Smoke Bomb on squishies, and kinetic dampener for that extra bit of defense.
  6. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
    Blood, choose to run trials you want the way you want when you lead them.

    Snow is spot on in this instance.

    I'm sick to death of the nonsense I see regularly of people who don't step up to lead trying to tell other leaders how to do so.

    If you could do it better, why didn't you just form the ******* thing yourself?

    I usually get the response, "I don't like herding cats" or "standing around yelling trial lfm" all night wasting my play time.

    Soooooo, you'd rather waste someone ELSE's playtime.

    I call that idiotic selfishism.

    As someone else mentioned, for the harder trials run them the way YOU want when YOU lead them. When I lead them, I'll run them my way.

    It's not elitism to not want your playtime wasted. Full stop. PERIOD.
    I can't run trials the way I want to because of the way they run trials!
  7. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    They aren't contributing enough of a buff to outweigh their lack of attack strength, lack of accuracy, lack of Lore pets, lack of Destiny buffs, Judgement attacks, Interface debuffs, or even the slight edge that the Alpha slot grants. Taken as a whole, a fresh level 50 isn't contributing the same amount that a 50+3 is. I don't know how to demonstrate this fact any clearer.
    A single Widow can grant 30% psionic resist, 15% Defense, 5% To-hit to the whole league while giving an extra 10% To-hit, 7.5% more defense, and 15% damage boost with 5 additional confuse/terror protoection and 60% confuse resist. These bonuses far outweight any detriments via level shifts that they may not have. This is just an example of that is provided. When we look at what other sets can provide, like Sonic's 60% resist boost or Cold's 30% defense boost or Rad's heals and damage boosts. I've even seen unshifted tanks hold the aggro of AVs just fine. With all of that data, I find the idea that a single 53 is 6-8 times better than a 50 to be an inaccurate oversimplification. Also, there is such a thing as a player with incarnate abilities that is not fully level shifted, due to the randomness of salvage drops capable of not granting those players rares/VRs. There is a road between 50 and 53, and it includes 51 and 52 players.

    Of course, this isn't what my issue is.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    The trial community on Triumph is such that I am not competing with another group forming a trial. Rarely there is enough interest to run more than one trial at a time. So there are 2-5 trials in a row. I'm not taking anyone from another league. On a larger server like Virtue what you are describing is valid, but not in my experience. Frankly, I would LOVE to have other people form trials. I will point out though that my trials tend to be successful more often than some other players attempting to lead.
    If you host a MoM/DD/UG with only 53s, then you have removed those 53s from any other league being formed for the next 20 hours. Simultaneous hosting is far from the issue. Of course, I'm not talking exclusively about Triumph, either.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    The majority of the player base on Triumph isn't interested in leading trials. They want someone else to form them. I do so. I know almost all of the trial leaders. You know what takes away opportunity for players to participate in trials more than stringent requirements? It is having -all- (and I mean every one) of the trial leaders on a single league. That is what frequently happens on Triumph.
    Good info to know, but regardless this doesn't actually debate the point. Also, this isn't always specific to Triumph.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Underground... Yes, it gives both types of iXP, but it is so rarely run on Triumph (once every couple months, if that). Keyes and TPN are both better rewarding for the time. BAFs are more rewarding for time than the Underground is.

    MoM... Only gives one type of iXP, is rarely run on Triumph, and it doesn't give a lot of iXP OR a great Reward Table.

    DD... Is so short, and doesn't have great incarnate XP that it simply doesn't compare to the other trials.

    I'm not robbing people out of Incarnate progress. Even more so with the new Incarnate Arcs that give players even MORE options for Incarnate progress.
    Standard not-triumph rant. The UG gives a guaranteed rared/VR, which is often the hurdle that a player needs to climb in order to get a level shift. MoM gives 2 Emps and if run with a knowledgeable league can go quite fast. The ease of which DD gets it's MO badge, which grants a rare upon reward, makes it rewarding enough, let alone it's higher chance to give better rewards. The solo incarnate path is so slow that it is practically an insult to players who want a solo run.

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Nope, I don't have to explain myself to you. Like I said, if I'm forming a league, I get to set the rules. If the trial is positioned as a level 54+3 trial, then that is what my minimum standards will generally be.

    As far as the level shifts, if the trials were intended for +0s, they'd be level 54+0s. Like I said, what I ask people to bring is my choice, if people don't want to bring that, we go our separate ways. I'm not blocking them from anything, they are more than welcome to lead what they want.
    But you are saying that it isn't your fault, and that you need to host these with those requirements. If you want to go back on that, I'll understand. Level shifts themselves serve as a tool to increase the durability and danger of an AV without having to resort to massive resists and ridiculous damage output. Because of this, it is quite possible that AVs are built with level shifts while not requiring them. And finally, whenever someone hosts a non-required trial, it is undoubtedly a benefit to have a mix of 53s along with everyone else, mostly for the primary damage dealers. So if I want to host a non-limited trial, then this means that whomever hosted the limited trial has taken away from my leagues performance.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    To put it bluntly, I am inclusive... to a point. However, I'm NOT going to invite someone that I think is leeching to a trial that I run, end of story. That you don't like it is YOUR problem, not mine. I'm NOT going to invite a player that I don't think is qualified to a trial that I'm leading. If that isn't good enough for you, TOO BAD.
    Your definition of leeching is that they don't have the levels that you are requiring, so lets not surgar coat it. Now, I am aware that it is my problem, and my way to resolve this problem is to argue with you to convince you and the others that these requirements are not necessary and thus it will be beneficial for everyone.

    Now, let me explain this "everyone" part. Lets assume for this example that there are 32 players, 16 fully shifted and 16 not fully shifted. If a team that is half and half between the groups can easily succeed at a trial (DD or MoM for this example), then running the trial with the 16 +3s makes it so the 16 other players won't be able to succeed at the trial should someone take their volition to host another one. However, running it at half and half makes it so all 32 players get to go on those trials, to the benefit of everyone. This is also part of the reason why it is I am asking for justification: the level requirement is excluding other players, and the normal justification for this is that the trial cannot succeed without those requirements. But if it isn't necessary to succeed and the level requirement is just a personal preference, then this means that the personal preference is just malicious toward the rest of the player base.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    You keep using the term, but I don't think it means what you think it means.
    Probably not. I'm using "elitist" as a means of saying that peak conditions for success are a requirement, and as a way to continually convey the same message without it getting stale through repetitive vocabulary.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    If not enough Clarions and Barriers are present in Underground, yes, the trial will fail.
    I ran a successful no-limit UG after DXP weekend that succeeded with only one clarion. That seems like a pretty easy requirement to fulfill.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    You brought it up, it is a fair point of contention. You claim that everyone should be included, I'm saying that not everyone can do what you are saying.
    I said just the opposite when I stated " Though this isn't about all people not being able to do the trials with 50s".



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    I'm not infringing on anyone's playstyle. Everyone has the same opportunity as I do: Form a league, join a league forming, or do something else. By you telling me how to lead a trial means that you think that I have no say in how I play the game.

    I'm not a slave to everyone that wishes to be on a trial for whatever reason they feel justified to take whatever they want to. For me to do what you say would be turning my playtime into unpaid work for whatever anyone wants me to do. Quite frankly, I'm insulted that you can't get the point that I don't owe anyone a spot on a trial I form.
    The whole case I've been building is that this does infringe on other people's playstyle. This goes far beyond just how you play the game. Work and playtime are antonyms, and if you don't enjoy playing the game for the game's sake then this is a problem in itself. A big problem with elitism is this demonstrated "It's all about ME ME ME" attitude. It is detrimental, no fun to be around, and creates a shield that prevents someone from seeing how their actions affect others. Justifying your actions only by saying you are free to do them is along the same lines of saying that you are free to do any evil action if it is allowed by the system. Ultimately it is selfish, malicious, and a detriment to the community.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    You know what? For most players I play with, that isn't an issue. I have 12-13 level 50s on Triumph and if I've ran a trial on one character, I can always bring another. Same goes with every other trial leader that I know on Triumph. By the way, only ONE of my level 50s on Triumph is less than a +3, and only because that character got to 50 this last weekend. Even so it is +2 already (a couple TPNs, BAFs, Lambdas). It doesn't take a lot of effort to get level shifts.
    For most players I play with, it is an issue. Players tend to want to improve the characters that need improving and will neglect the ones that don't need improving unless they are acting for the benefit of others that do need improving. It is the just net flow of things in the game. Now, the RNG itself is a cruel mistress that you eventually discover is a mister; I leveled two toons to 50 on the weekend, and it took me over twice as long to get one to 53 than it did the other just because of RNG hate. Now, my schedule right now is pretty open, so I can do the whole "run every trial on those toons once a day" thing. I pity those who don't have the time allotment.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    I'm not interfering with other player's play. However I am limiting how much of their demands on my time affects me.

    If you think that I'm elitist because I don't want other people wasting my time by bringing characters that are ineffective (like a level 50 scrapper with Single Origins) to a DD trial, then have at it. Multiply that by 5-6 players on a 16 player max league and you'll understand where I'm coming from. I don't want to deal with that on a harder trial, and I shouldn't have to.

    Because I stipulate what I'm looking for in a character that joins a trial that I lead, all of a sudden I'm being vilified and I don't like it one bit.
    It would probably be a lot more time saving if you didn't take every single mention of the conclusion of my argument out of context just to go "NO!". BTW yeah I would call that elitist. I have also seen worse, though. I've seen people request 53s, specific ATs/Powers, and IOed out only. It is kind of funny because sometimes these things take long enough to run the trial twice, so the net effect is that you can get two shots to succeed in the trial where the other one gets only one. As long as your success rate is higher than 50% this is a net gain over the requirements.

    Frankly, I'm surprised that few other people realize that the player base is a limited commodity. I figured this out forming Ice Mistrals redside a year ago.
  8. I am pretty sure it is common knowledge that all of the AVs have impassable status effect protection. Magnitude 1000 in... everything I believe. The only AV I've ever seen mezzed is Shalice during the fourth phase of MoM.
  9. It definitely leaves me in a quandary when I play as my widow. Normally I go Fortunata to use controls and nukes on the prisoners, but it means i'll only be dong half the damage I would do as a Night widow.

    The resists make sense for the most part. But some... not as much. For instance, why does AM have an 80% toxic resistance? I mean, it makes sense for the avatar of Hamidon to have it that high, being a 3-story tall wad of sentient penicillin and all. But was AM fed strychnine since a kid or something? I can understand some poison tolerance due to radiation and all, but damn.
  10. I love stalkers. I like Power Analyzer MKIII. Because of this, I likelove Bane spiders. Playing with Surveillance is fun, since it lets me see all of the stats of the enemies I scan. It's like I get access to some privy knowledge that no one else gets.

    So, with my bane recently leveled up to incarnate level, I got bit by the curiosity bug and started scanning the trial AVs, and telling the rest of my league about it. It is good stuff to know, but after talking with them a lot I realized that not a lot of people know this stuff. I searched around, asked around, and I couldn't find anything that lists this information. I decided to post up the AV resistances of the AVs in trials. This is an incomplete list, since I have yet to get on a MoM or DD with my bane, and those will take awhile since I'll need the stats of all of the Nightmares, AVs, and Heroes. I'll update it as I get more info.


    Now, there are two stats that scale during these trials. AV hitpoints will scale depending on how many players are in the league, and also the AVs will get a damage buff. These two values are different for each AV. For example, Marauder only gets 60% damage boost due to scaling, while Nightstar gets 97% boost. Or was it 96... darn I wish I didn't have the memory of a 60 year old man... Anyway, all AVs have 0% defenses. They all also have 87% debuff resistance to all stats except recharge rate, which is 100%. Unfortunately this meant that all of my stacked -recharge attacks weren't doing a darn thing to the AVs...

    O.K. Back on topic, the most noticeable difference between the AVs was their resistances. They can vary wildly, going from 0% to 80% in different stats. I figure that if any players decide to see if they can get a record holding speed run or something like that, this has got to be useful information. Here is a list of all of the AVs I've scanned so far, along with their resistances.


    Marauder while Enraged:
    95% resistance to all damage.
    50% damage increase

    While Normal:
    0% resistance to all damage.

    While Unstoppable/Normal:
    70% resistance to all damage.


    Nightstar:
    50% Lethal Resistance
    50% Cold Resistance
    30% Negative Energy
    75% Psionic Resistance

    Siege:
    50% Smashing Resistance
    50% Lethal Resistance
    50% Cold Resistance
    30% Negative Energy
    75% Psionic Resistance


    Antimatter:
    30% Energy Resistance
    30% Negative Energy
    80% Toxic Resistance


    Maelstrom (all phases):
    50% Smashing Resistance
    50% Lethal Resistance
    30% Energy Resistance
    20% Negative Energy


    War Walkers (all three):
    0% Resistance to everything.

    Avatar of Hamidon:
    50% Smashing Resistance
    33% Lethal Resistance
    10% Fire Resistance
    33% Cold Resistance
    33% Energy Resistance
    33% Negative Energy
    33% Psionic Resistance
    80% Toxic Resistance

    UPDATE:

    I have scanned everything in MoM. This is what I have found:

    Malaise:
    30% Energy Resist
    30% Negative Energy
    50% Psionic

    Nightmares (Babbage, LIWW, and Jurassik scanned):
    0% resistance to everything

    Penelope Mayhem:
    0% resistance to everything

    Mother Mayhem:
    0% resistance to everything

    Mother Malaise:
    0% resistance to everything.

    Shalice Tilman:
    0% resistance to everything.
    Mag 1000 status protection unless in GM bubble, otherwise 0 mezz protection.

    Final Shalice Tilman:
    0% resistance to everything.


    EDIT AGIAN:

    Dilemma Diabolique trail:

    All heroes (Babs, Manticore, Synapse, Positron scanned):
    0% resist to everything.

    The Sentinel of Mot:
    This one has some interesting mechanics. It's resistances are dependent on what heroes it obtains. While doing the MO run, it had 25% resistance to all damage types except toxic. This came form two separate powers:

    Essence of Resilience: 10% resistance to all but toxic
    Essence of Protection: 15% resistance to all but toxic.


    Diabolique:
    0% resist to all damage

    HOWEVER, there is an additional power called Power of the Dead that gives Diabolique an increase depending on how many people have died. I do not know how much this increase is, for the trial I ran this with had no deaths.




    And there you have it. A shocking trend I noticed to all Praetorians is that they have little to no resistance to fire! It seems the solution to our troubled sister dimension is to put more coals on the barby, because that thing is going up like a Christmas Tree if someone lights a match within a mile of it. But enough about Praetoria's Hindenburg-like tendencies. I really do feel kind of sorry for ice/cold players, since their patented recharge rate debuffs have, like, no effect at all. Also, most of the AVs have resistances to smashing/lethal, so Swordy McKniferton has their work cut out for them.
  11. You can call me Blood. You can call me Red. You can call me Arachnid. You can call me Blood Arachnid. You can call me Red Arachnid. You can call me Blood Red. You can call me spidey. Or you can call me R.J.J. Jr. But please, don't call me BRA.
  12. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    My point is that unshifted characters are less effective than shifted characters in the harder trials. Simply put, unshifted characters aren't sharing equally in participation.
    My point is that buffs are not affected by level shifts, and their contribution to the team therefor isn't affected.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Actually it is entirely relevant. I don't exclusively lead the harder trials. I'm more than willing to help players get the level shifts so that they can join the harder trials. I draw the line at taking them to a trial that is above their ability to contribute.

    If I were only doing Undergounds, MoMs, and DD trials, then you'd have a basis for complaint. However, I'm actively leading the lower difficulty trials to help players get those level shifts. At the same time I'm learning what those players are capable of. If they show themselves to be a good player, I'm more likely to invite them to a higher difficulty trial with relaxed conditions.

    If players want a level shifted character to be able to play on one of my leagues that is attempting a more difficult trials, they can join any of my open leagues to get those level shifts. Lately I've been running TPN and Keyes more than BAF and Lambda. TPN in particular gives a lot of rewards to build those level shifts.

    I don't think it is unreasonable to expect players to put forth some effort if they want to join a harder trial. If they can't put forth the requirements I ask for, then they can join a group that has a lower standard than I do.

    I reiterate that this is not relevant. Players who aren't able to join your trials with high level shift requirements are going to be running trials that don't have them anyway, regardless if whether or not it is you hosting them. So w00t for you. This doesn't even change the fact that the player base is a limited resource, and running things like MoM, DD, and UG trials with elitist requirements takes away those elites from whomever runs MoM, DD, or UG without those stringent requirements. The trials that are being held in such high regard are themselves a means to access higher level shifts, and holding those requirements excludes players until they nearly don't need to run those trials anymore anyway (which is about the time they get to be +3).




    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Actually, no I don't. I don't have to justify my leadership style to you any more than you have to justify how you play your characters. Or are you trying to tell me how to play the game? When you are willing to pay for my VIP status, that is the point you can tell me how to use my play time. Actually, come to think about it, at that point it would stop being my play time.
    Oh, but you do. For you see, you've said other things that make you need to justify your position:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    At the end of the day, the group to blame for all this is the developers. They didn't need to set the trials at +1, +2, or +3. They didn't need to set the DD trial for +3, over the protest of players in the beta, but they did. They could have removed the level shifts form the DD trial, left it as a part of the final arc in DA, and the players would have been happy. Instead they stuck to their guns and made this a level 54+3 event.

    They needed to make 6-7 level 54 Incarnate Trials, then when we get more shifts increase the level of the trials.
    This means that the discrimination based on level differences is not your fault. That free will is being usurped by the devilish design of the devs, forcing these requirements to be necessary for any success. Since this is the case you are putting up, you have to stand by it and explain why it is that all of the people who run these trials successfully without abiding by the forceful and necessary conditions are exceptional, and that your requirements are still necessary by design.

    As much as I would like to play a game where players themselves aren't a resource, the fact is that we don't get an infinite supply of whomever when we play the game. Hosting trials of only 53s affects everyone; not just your trials. The differing playstyles are detriments to each other, so if I see something that limits my playstyle I certainly am going to do something about it. You are, indeed, imposing your play style onto the community. Likewise, I am imposing mine onto the community. The difference being that my playstyle is based upon inclusion, not exclusion, and this does not infringe upon anyone's success other than those who refuse to play along by their own volition. Elitism doesn't give other players a choice in the matter.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    And level shifts provide a buffer against stubborn, ignorant, and otherwise ill-prepared players. It is called a margin of error. I try to build leagues with that in mind. Will it always succeed? No. Can it turn an otherwise failing trial around? Yes. You seem to have a much larger tolerance of failure than I do. Good for you.
    I have a better success record, not a higher tolerance. Level shifts hardly act as a buffer for instances where it takes only one player to mess up. If a player attacks civilians in the TPN, you all fail regardless of your shifts. If a player refuses to back away while fighting the WWs in the UG, you all fail. If a player uses rebirth on the avatar, you all fail. If the random number generator gives over half of the acids on the lambda trial to someone who is incompetent, you all fail. If a squishy keeps running into Diabolique at the end of the trial and getting themselves killed, you all fail. Level shifts change nothing in these instances. A player not doing what they are supposed to is 0% contribution or less, which is far worse than a lower leveled player doing what they should. I don't know who originally said it, but I agree: "Give me a skilled player over a stronger build any day".



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Just because one person can do something doesn't mean that everyone can. I use the easier trials to observe how people play. If they seem capable of not being an idiot, they are more likely to be asked to a higher difficulty trial. The reverse is also true. I just rather not deal with trying to determine that during a higher difficulty trial.
    And we are breaking off on the tangent I specifically said not to. You're not paying attention to the point.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Quite frankly, I could care less about the performances of your groups. When I have some of my rarely held unannounced trials, I build teams based on players, not level shifts. Those trials have the same effect: I take players that would otherwise join an open trial and help out. So I have to choose whether I include people that I normally wouldn't take or set minimum standards for higher trials. Most of the time, I choose to open trials to everyone. On Underground, MoM, and DD that means I have a higher standard for joining.

    All the trials I've been talking about in this thread are open trials where I don't pre-screen everyone joining except for level shifts if the trial is one of the three (of seven) trials where I deem it is too difficult for the average player. That is my prerogative as a trial leader. Nothing you have said changes the fact that it is my prerogative as a trial leader. I have every right to form my leagues as I see fit. Just like you have the right to lead trials like you see fit.
    If we're all passing around the magic crystal success ball then you should pay attention to see and emulate the wizardry to improve your own performance. This is ignoring the blatant assumption of the trials being effectively indistinguishable from each other in reward, design, and entertainment that the whole 3/7 statement makes. However I digress: I am once again talking about how the devs have robbed you of your freedom on the matter. My particular performance isn't even important here; the fact that successes, whether they are mine or countless others, exist is what is important. If a single paragraph wasn't diced into several quotes this point may not have been lost. For the rest, see above about how you are infringing on everyone else's playstyle and how you have to justify your position beyond it merely being your choice.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    Level shifts provide a margin of error that can aid success. Too small a margin and you fail more.
    The sentence you quoted goes with the rest of what I said. This is redundant: you've already mentioned the margin of error.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    No, you said that trials pulling +3s and you being left with less level shifted characters was a problem:

    You didn't once mention the 20 hour timer. You said the higher level trials taking away level-shifted characters from lower ones.
    Pay attention to the red:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid View Post
    Now, there is a very big problem with the "don't like it, don't join" mentality. The issue is that trials are a once a day thing,and players usually don't have the time to always run it for everyone else. Because of this, there is a limited player resource available to the community. By requiring higher levels to join your trials, you are effectively taking away those higher levels from those who would run trials without those stringent requirements. With a mix of 50's to 53's it is quite possible to succeed in UG, MoM, and DD. I've done it and hosted it numerous times. It is a lot harder to win after someone has gobbled up all of the 53s, though, since now they are no longer going to join that trial, causing you to settle on lower level players, and this makes things harder.Even when you host with a +1 only requirement, you'll still get plenty of +2 and +3 players EXCEPT when they have already done the trial hosted by someone else.

    This creates a form of discrimination more severe than just exclusion. It is saying "If you don't like it, don't join my trial, but I'm going to make it so you can't make another trial by taking up all of the better players". This is a noticeable problem on virtue, let alone a smaller server where you might not be able to host the trial after another one has launched.
    Though this may just be a simple understanding: "Once a day" is the day-long timer put onto trials. Not players only having the time allotment to run a trial once. That is covered in the second half of the sentence, where I say players don't always have the time to run it for others. That is in direct contrast to themselves.



    EDIT: You know, I realize this now, but I'm not sure if you and I are even on the same page. I'm not debating that level shifts don't play a role. I'm debating that the elitist playstyle isn't necessary and that it is infringing on other people's play. This point seems to be getting lost, so I'm saying it bluntly again.
  13. Blood Red Arachnid

    Placate on MA/SR

    Take placate when you get to a point where there really isn't another power to take. Usually at that awkward point in the mid-20s where you're given a power choice but there's nothing to choose that won't require too many slots to be effective.

    If that never happens, take placate at 49.
  14. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blue_Fenix View Post
    Is fire resistance notably absent among the iTrial AVs?
    Yes.




    Now, I can't find the data in CoD, either. I can find where it lists enemies, but it doesn't have stats like resistances. So... yeah I'm going to go ahead and make the topic.
  15. As far as I consider it, it is better to have never been hit than it is to regen quickly. Always build for defenses.
  16. I'm considering making a somewhat long post of a growing list of Incarnate Trial AVs I've scanned the stats of. As much as I would like to make jokes about how everything in Praetoria burns like a Christmas tree, I was wondering if there wasn't already some website or forum post that has already done this.

    List I-trial AV stats I mean. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one who lichens Praetoria with kindling
  17. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    And things like Twilight Grasp or any other buff that requires accuracy is fully dependent on level shift & accuracy.
    You're avoiding the point.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    And this is why I host a mix of trials. Note the "s" at the end of "trial". Yes, I get some turnover, but I still have enough for multiple trials (sometimes 4-6 of them in a night).
    Not relevant. We are talking about DD, UG, and MoM; trials where you are requiring level shifts.


    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    I've never succeeded a MoM trial with 50s on the league. Why? Because it is never just one or even a few 50+0s, it is 6-8 of them. Most of them don't even bother to do any research on a trial or want to listen to those that have. By requiring a certain level I'm warning them that this is more difficult than they are used to.

    I've seen players not interested in getting additional level shifts with the earlier trials as they only want to do each "once". There is no way that I'm taking a player like that on a newer, more difficult trial.
    And I have succeeded with 50's on a league. So, my questions to you are these: Who is the exception? If there is a mixed team and they win, did something special happen there that wasn't supposed to happen? Something out of the ordinary that can't be applied to any other group that forms without making that group the exception? It is merely the random number generator being kind enough to make all those poor inaccurate unshifted hit more often? This is the problem with ineptitude being an arguing point; it has to assume that anyone who succeeds is overpreforming and failure should be the norm by the standards set. If your case is unshifted = failure, then you have to explain away all the cases where unshifted != failure while retaining the core essence that unshifted undoubtedly is equivalent to failure. This isn't a statistics game, either. You have to explain away the individual to whom statistics means nothing.

    You're very apt to explain the failure due to level shifts in a way that isn't determined by the level shifts. If players are stubborn, ignorant, and show no initiative, then I submit that this problem supersedes the prior level shift problem on the account that a stubborn, ignorant, and intiative-less player can be the death of a trial even when level shifted to +3.

    The opposite argument to ineptitude is so much easier to sustain because it isn't based on exclusion. If someone says "you can't do something", and then someone else does it, then that first someone is undoubtedly wrong. Though this isn't about all people not being able to do the trials with 50s, so save me the time of not having to deal with that random tangent. My case for winning trials with 50's on the team is not that I or anyone else is exceptional, but that we are average. Our performances are not indicative of the presence of some exceptional element for success, but rather the lack of elements for failure. Success is the normal outcome when things do not go wrong.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snow Globe View Post
    I also try to make sure not to compete with other trials forming, as I know I can pull people from other groups.
    The problem is the 20 hour timer, not simultaneous trials.
  18. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane View Post
    Um, no. Flamethrowers were so big of a target because one bullet into the canister on their back and you take out them and anyone around them. And they were much more lethal when at effective range. Getting a bullet in the leg? Patch it up. Quite survivable. Flamethrower? Burning fuel sticks to you, keeps on burning to bone. Burns over the majority of your body in battlefield conditions, the medic can't just put some gauze on that.


    .

    No. Flametrhowers were so big of a target due to their visibility and the intimidation factor of being engulfed in flames. Last time I checked, shooting something filled with a flammable liquid doesn't even make it explode. The "effective range" thing is a big problem since most machine guns at the time (WW2) could shoot a flamethrower wielder long before they ever became dangerous.
  19. ^^ It isn't mind control as much as it is mind games. Tankers, while not being a superior damage king, have so much more presence on the field that it naturally draws others to fight them. It's like a flamethrower: Not much more lethal, but it's intimidation factor always made flamethrower wielders that much more of a target.
  20. I wasn't talking to you. But regardless I'll respond:

    Something I have noticed while playing around with Bane Surveilance is that different enemies have vastly different resist attributes. For example: the War Walkers in the UG trial have zero resistance to everything, letting players maximize their damage against them. Compare this to Siege/Nightstar, who have 50% resistance to lethal, 75% resistance to psionic, 30% resistance to energy/NE (though I think nightstar has 50% resistance to NE). There are other assorted differences between the two, but this general trend of resistances of 0 to 30% to 50% to 75% persists in the BAF, Keyes, TPN, and against the Avatar of Hamidon at the end of the fight. Now, I have yet to test this on MoM and DD, since my spider is a new incarnate and I have just barely leveled him up high enough to handle those.

    What this means is that, despite having all of the relevant levels, a player can hit a wall against these AVs which you aren't requiring shifts for if they happen to do a specific type of damage. The 50% damage resistance is equivalent to roughly 4 levels down. The 75% mark is between 5 and 6 levels down. Because of this, native AV resistance in trials very quickly outdoes any level shifts you'll require, meaning that your team could be doing even damage as a level 50 with the right attack type. Resists are arguably playing a much bigger role in the AV fights than level shifts are. If you are concerned about success, then what you should be doing is building a team with a particular damage type instead of a team with a particular level limit.

    Another interesting thing about these AVs in trials is that none of them have defense. Every single one I scanned has had 0% defense to all attack types.

    Now, a second problem that is being overlooked is that the purple patch has absolutely no effect on buffs and heals on your side. Things like assault, accelerated metabolism, vengeance, and Healing Aura are just as effective regardless of the level shift.

    Each of these AVs has themselves an 87% resistance to debuff effects (except for recharge reduction which is 100% so never invite an Ice player to a trial again), and when the difference between debuffs is from 1% to 4%, that isn't much by any standard. The advantage being, of course, that you run these trials with 16 other players who not only have debuffs of their own, but have multiple debuffs, many of them unresisted because they are grant-self powers like interface procs. These small numbers add up very quickly to a relevant amount, and with their sheer amount the difference in level shifts is at best trivial. The only players who aren't contributing much to the fight are the players who do nothing but damage, and that itself isn't too common since most offensive sets have some kind of debuff to them. Except for ice players, who are fully resisted by AVs.


    This continually lends to the idea that these trials are designed assuming that players won't always be fighting them at +3. I've been on many of the elitist trials that require +3s. and those don't win by a small margin. A math operation I used to come up with my new standard is how a team of 53's can beat Tilman at the end of the trial in 45 seconds. But... you are given 3 minutes to defeat her. Mathematically, you can be a little more than 1/4th as effective and still beat her. Going by the purple patch, a team that is +3 is only doing 65% of their regular damage, and 1/4th of that is 16.25%. This is... a little more than what a +0 would contribute to the trial. A +1 does 30% damage, which is half as effective as a +3. A team of +1s, therefore, could beat Tilman and have a minute and twenty seconds to spare. The actual strength varies between the level shifts a little more than the purple patch, but thankfully there is an 85% margin of error to cushion the difference.




    Now, there is a very big problem with the "don't like it, don't join" mentality. The issue is that trials are a once a day thing, and players usually don't have the time to always run it for everyone else. Because of this, there is a limited player resource available to the community. By requiring higher levels to join your trials, you are effectively taking away those higher levels from those who would run trials without those stringent requirements. With a mix of 50's to 53's it is quite possible to succeed in UG, MoM, and DD. I've done it and hosted it numerous times. It is a lot harder to win after someone has gobbled up all of the 53s, though, since now they are no longer going to join that trial, causing you to settle on lower level players, and this makes things harder. Even when you host with a +1 only requirement, you'll still get plenty of +2 and +3 players EXCEPT when they have already done the trial hosted by someone else.

    This creates a form of discrimination more severe than just exclusion. It is saying "If you don't like it, don't join my trial, but I'm going to make it so you can't make another trial by taking up all of the better players". This is a noticeable problem on virtue, let alone a smaller server where you might not be able to host the trial after another one has launched.
  21. Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wing_Leader View Post
    Clearly, experiences in the iTrials vary enough that no one person's perspective represents a "norm". My experience, for instance, after running all the trials dozens of times on Virtue, is that the purple patch is a severe enough penalty that level shifts become absolutely necessary to success in the later trials. If someone has figured out a way to overcome the purple patch, then please let us all in on the secret (and no, "run with skilled players" is neither a secret nor a reliable strategy on all servers).

    If most of these failed iTrials during the x2XP weekend were the fault of experienced players trying out new ATs/powersets that they were a little unfamiliar with (I say "a little" because after 50 levels spent with an AT/powerset, there is no such thing as "woefully unfamiliar"), then this dramatically demonstrates the potent effect of level shifts on success rates (because these players already knew exactly what to do in the trials, but still failed). However, if the high failure rate was the result of a rash of newbies with newly minted first-time 50s trying the iTrials for the first time, then it goes to show just how inadequately the standard 1-50 game prepares players for the structure, pacing, and cheap gimmicks of the iTrials.

    In any event, this just proves what I think we already know: success in the iTrials go up dramatically according to two things: level shifts and familiarity with the peculiar mechanics of any given trial. General playing skill or experience seems to have minimal impact on success chances, at least compared to level shifts and trial-specific experience.
    Because you need to be at least level 52 in order to understand the instructions of "Use molecular acids on the doors", and level 53 to maybe type a response back where you ask me to clarify anything.


    EDIT: is it just me, or is the art of compromise dead?
  22. I'm pretty sure multiple brutes would take each other's potential fury. I remember after titan weapon's release trials were sometimes full of 6-8 brutes, and I sure as heck don't remember being able to cut wide swaths into enemy territory.
  23. IMO barrier is overrated. It gives you a good buff for, like, 30 seconds, then it is basically just a maneuvers. I have Core Epiphany slotted onto my WP tank, and I usually keep it up for that 5% defense boost that I get for the whole 2 minutes.. Puts me at the soft cap for all typed defenses. The radial version only gives, like, 2.5% defense and resistance for a minute and a half. It's useful as a panic button and an emergency rez, but little else.