Blood Red Arachnid

Not sure if serious. The 20 hours is the reward penalty time. Once a player runs the trial, they aren't going to get the same rewards so they aren't going to run the trial again until they can get the rewards again. The exception to this rule is if a player decides to run the trial again despite rewards out of charity or if they really like that trial.


Definitely interesting. However, something that I always take issue with is the perceive-ability. A person's outlook, whether seeing hope in the void or despair in the light, is that person's responsibility. Their opinions are also their own responsibility. "You're making me perceive things that way" even sounds kind of silly, as if there is a mind-control device that is forcibly changing other people's opinions.

I try to convince everyone otherwise. On virtue I was the first person I saw who started hosting MoM trials with a 51+ only requirement where previously it was all 53s with specific ATs. And it work great, winning far more often than losing, but unfortunately I have yet to get any of the other leaders to be convinced from success after success. After going "Hey everyone, it works great like this and everyone can do this and I'll continually show you it works great like this", and people aren't convinced, this makes me question whether or not they even can be convinced. If they won't listen to reason or will ignore practice, then I'm powerless to change their perception. I feel the devs may be in the same boat.

This leaves me perplexed about their behaviors. I talk with them, but their reasons don't always make sense in light of contradictory evidence. It isn't about reasoning at this point. So now me and Snow are going to get into a testosterone fight.

I do wonder what kind of challenge that the devs can put into the game that doesn't require level shifts, though. I talk about this with Arcanaville later, so to save space I'll just direct to the end of this post.


I remember the only time I've ever seen a league fail at the end fight of MoM. It was a very strange problem that, thanks to someone's joke, I call the lemming tactic. The standard strategy for the final AV fight is to summon temp pets, buff, then rush the AV. This league had an... initiative problem. That is, they wouldn't attack the AV until a lot of people were already attacking the AV. This kept rearing it's ugly head through the trial, with the whole "lets wait two minutes before fighting Malaise" and "lets wait in the starting room until an Eye of the Storm is up". So, in the final AV fight, when we have all of our pets and and we go to charge the AV, everyone is just standing around while the AV snipes them. I run ahead and start fighting the AV thinking that other people will run up, but they don't. So here I am, a level 53 Dom with no resistances or defense to speak of, tanking the AV. Of course I get slaughtered, and then the next brave soul who runs up gets slaughtered, and then the next one gets slaughtered... repeat the process. It wasn't until after a full minute that the brutes on the team decided to start attacking the final AV, but at that point over half the league had wiped and wasn't able to recover. At the end of the trial I was all like "Just a tip to everyone, ONE AT A TIME DOESN'T WORK!!!".

You don't get des-rez during the final AV fight...

It happens on virtue, too. We get dozens of people standing around all going "LF trial!" but no one starts it. I think my record time for forming a full UG is 30 seconds.



This raises the question of what can be considered elitism. After all, min/maxing, exclusion, stringent requirements, specific powers, all of those are there to increase the odds of success. Elitism itself seems to be to increase the odds of success, so it is hard to make a distinction. The litmus test I always use for elitism is whether or not you are excluding a player for matters other than their playing skill. If you are excluding via AT, not slotting IOs, Levels, and their kin then this is a case of elitism. A player that is merely doing what they can to make themselves better isn't itself elitist, but the moment when that extends to discriminating against another player is the moment that it extends past the line.

Also, at what point does having those requirements become elitism? I myself tend to host MoMs with a +1 requirement (and I'll willingly break it if we have a lot of +3 teammates or if they're a support toon with nice buffs). Is it when players are hosting things with +3 only? Is it when players are requiring IO sets? Is it when players are only asking for specific ATs or Power sets? The scale of exclusion rears applies here, too. I run MoM with the +1 requirement not because it isn't nice to have a team of only 53s with IOs stomp the trial blindfolded, but because I am trying to get as many people as possible on board while still retaining victory. My actions are not to see if we can win as easy as possible, but if we can just win even by the skin of our teeth. Sometimes I think even the +1 requirement isn't necessary.

Though I do think that the level shifts are a bit of a case of trickery with the numbers. Something I brought up once is that, though the Warwalkers in the UG trial are level 55, they have 0% resist to all forms of damage. This makes them less durable than Nighstar and Siege, and arguably even Antimatter though they don't have level shifts. Something else I mentioned in the beta forums is how most of the difficulty of the trial is based upon the mechanics. I mean, sure the Avatar of Hamidon is level 55 and has resists to everything, but I have yet to find a team that both didn't have issues with his confuse and didn't beat him. If you overcome that confuse, he becomes a big wall of HP that you whittle down. To these, I wonder what exactly lends to success: is it the level shifts, or is it better tactics and strategy? From my experience, it certainly isn't the lack of levels that is getting me killed; it's all those gimmicks and sometimes the incompetence of a player(s).

I also wonder how it is you can put difficulty into the game despite stats being an integral part of the game. Increasing the stats needs stat increases to counteract them or very specific strategies requiring specific powers in certain amounts. Gimmicks need precision, and the more precision is needed the more prone to mistakes and idiocy it becomes. I can't really figure it out, and I don't expect someone else to off-hand.

I can't run trials the way I want to because of the way they run trials!

A single Widow can grant 30% psionic resist, 15% Defense, 5% To-hit to the whole league while giving an extra 10% To-hit, 7.5% more defense, and 15% damage boost with 5 additional confuse/terror protoection and 60% confuse resist. These bonuses far outweight any detriments via level shifts that they may not have. This is just an example of that is provided. When we look at what other sets can provide, like Sonic's 60% resist boost or Cold's 30% defense boost or Rad's heals and damage boosts. I've even seen unshifted tanks hold the aggro of AVs just fine. With all of that data, I find the idea that a single 53 is 6-8 times better than a 50 to be an inaccurate oversimplification. Also, there is such a thing as a player with incarnate abilities that is not fully level shifted, due to the randomness of salvage drops capable of not granting those players rares/VRs. There is a road between 50 and 53, and it includes 51 and 52 players.

Of course, this isn't what my issue is.


If you host a MoM/DD/UG with only 53s, then you have removed those 53s from any other league being formed for the next 20 hours. Simultaneous hosting is far from the issue. Of course, I'm not talking exclusively about Triumph, either.


Good info to know, but regardless this doesn't actually debate the point. Also, this isn't always specific to Triumph.



Standard not-triumph rant. The UG gives a guaranteed rared/VR, which is often the hurdle that a player needs to climb in order to get a level shift. MoM gives 2 Emps and if run with a knowledgeable league can go quite fast. The ease of which DD gets it's MO badge, which grants a rare upon reward, makes it rewarding enough, let alone it's higher chance to give better rewards. The solo incarnate path is so slow that it is practically an insult to players who want a solo run.

But you are saying that it isn't your fault, and that you need to host these with those requirements. If you want to go back on that, I'll understand. Level shifts themselves serve as a tool to increase the durability and danger of an AV without having to resort to massive resists and ridiculous damage output. Because of this, it is quite possible that AVs are built with level shifts while not requiring them. And finally, whenever someone hosts a non-required trial, it is undoubtedly a benefit to have a mix of 53s along with everyone else, mostly for the primary damage dealers. So if I want to host a non-limited trial, then this means that whomever hosted the limited trial has taken away from my leagues performance.



Your definition of leeching is that they don't have the levels that you are requiring, so lets not surgar coat it. Now, I am aware that it is my problem, and my way to resolve this problem is to argue with you to convince you and the others that these requirements are not necessary and thus it will be beneficial for everyone.

Now, let me explain this "everyone" part. Lets assume for this example that there are 32 players, 16 fully shifted and 16 not fully shifted. If a team that is half and half between the groups can easily succeed at a trial (DD or MoM for this example), then running the trial with the 16 +3s makes it so the 16 other players won't be able to succeed at the trial should someone take their volition to host another one. However, running it at half and half makes it so all 32 players get to go on those trials, to the benefit of everyone. This is also part of the reason why it is I am asking for justification: the level requirement is excluding other players, and the normal justification for this is that the trial cannot succeed without those requirements. But if it isn't necessary to succeed and the level requirement is just a personal preference, then this means that the personal preference is just malicious toward the rest of the player base.


Probably not. I'm using "elitist" as a means of saying that peak conditions for success are a requirement, and as a way to continually convey the same message without it getting stale through repetitive vocabulary.


I ran a successful no-limit UG after DXP weekend that succeeded with only one clarion. That seems like a pretty easy requirement to fulfill.


I said just the opposite when I stated " Though this isn't about all people not being able to do the trials with 50s".



The whole case I've been building is that this does infringe on other people's playstyle. This goes far beyond just how you play the game. Work and playtime are antonyms, and if you don't enjoy playing the game for the game's sake then this is a problem in itself. A big problem with elitism is this demonstrated "It's all about ME ME ME" attitude. It is detrimental, no fun to be around, and creates a shield that prevents someone from seeing how their actions affect others. Justifying your actions only by saying you are free to do them is along the same lines of saying that you are free to do any evil action if it is allowed by the system. Ultimately it is selfish, malicious, and a detriment to the community.


For most players I play with, it is an issue. Players tend to want to improve the characters that need improving and will neglect the ones that don't need improving unless they are acting for the benefit of others that do need improving. It is the just net flow of things in the game. Now, the RNG itself is a cruel mistress that you eventually discover is a mister; I leveled two toons to 50 on the weekend, and it took me over twice as long to get one to 53 than it did the other just because of RNG hate. Now, my schedule right now is pretty open, so I can do the whole "run every trial on those toons once a day" thing. I pity those who don't have the time allotment.



It would probably be a lot more time saving if you didn't take every single mention of the conclusion of my argument out of context just to go "NO!". BTW yeah I would call that elitist. I have also seen worse, though. I've seen people request 53s, specific ATs/Powers, and IOed out only. It is kind of funny because sometimes these things take long enough to run the trial twice, so the net effect is that you can get two shots to succeed in the trial where the other one gets only one. As long as your success rate is higher than 50% this is a net gain over the requirements.

Frankly, I'm surprised that few other people realize that the player base is a limited commodity. I figured this out forming Ice Mistrals redside a year ago.

My point is that buffs are not affected by level shifts, and their contribution to the team therefor isn't affected.



I reiterate that this is not relevant. Players who aren't able to join your trials with high level shift requirements are going to be running trials that don't have them anyway, regardless if whether or not it is you hosting them. So w00t for you. This doesn't even change the fact that the player base is a limited resource, and running things like MoM, DD, and UG trials with elitist requirements takes away those elites from whomever runs MoM, DD, or UG without those stringent requirements. The trials that are being held in such high regard are themselves a means to access higher level shifts, and holding those requirements excludes players until they nearly don't need to run those trials anymore anyway (which is about the time they get to be +3).




Oh, but you do. For you see, you've said other things that make you need to justify your position:

This means that the discrimination based on level differences is not your fault. That free will is being usurped by the devilish design of the devs, forcing these requirements to be necessary for any success. Since this is the case you are putting up, you have to stand by it and explain why it is that all of the people who run these trials successfully without abiding by the forceful and necessary conditions are exceptional, and that your requirements are still necessary by design.

As much as I would like to play a game where players themselves aren't a resource, the fact is that we don't get an infinite supply of whomever when we play the game. Hosting trials of only 53s affects everyone; not just your trials. The differing playstyles are detriments to each other, so if I see something that limits my playstyle I certainly am going to do something about it. You are, indeed, imposing your play style onto the community. Likewise, I am imposing mine onto the community. The difference being that my playstyle is based upon inclusion, not exclusion, and this does not infringe upon anyone's success other than those who refuse to play along by their own volition. Elitism doesn't give other players a choice in the matter.



I have a better success record, not a higher tolerance. Level shifts hardly act as a buffer for instances where it takes only one player to mess up. If a player attacks civilians in the TPN, you all fail regardless of your shifts. If a player refuses to back away while fighting the WWs in the UG, you all fail. If a player uses rebirth on the avatar, you all fail. If the random number generator gives over half of the acids on the lambda trial to someone who is incompetent, you all fail. If a squishy keeps running into Diabolique at the end of the trial and getting themselves killed, you all fail. Level shifts change nothing in these instances. A player not doing what they are supposed to is 0% contribution or less, which is far worse than a lower leveled player doing what they should. I don't know who originally said it, but I agree: "Give me a skilled player over a stronger build any day".



And we are breaking off on the tangent I specifically said not to. You're not paying attention to the point.


If we're all passing around the magic crystal success ball then you should pay attention to see and emulate the wizardry to improve your own performance. This is ignoring the blatant assumption of the trials being effectively indistinguishable from each other in reward, design, and entertainment that the whole 3/7 statement makes. However I digress: I am once again talking about how the devs have robbed you of your freedom on the matter. My particular performance isn't even important here; the fact that successes, whether they are mine or countless others, exist is what is important. If a single paragraph wasn't diced into several quotes this point may not have been lost. For the rest, see above about how you are infringing on everyone else's playstyle and how you have to justify your position beyond it merely being your choice.


The sentence you quoted goes with the rest of what I said. This is redundant: you've already mentioned the margin of error.


Pay attention to the red:

Though this may just be a simple understanding: "Once a day" is the day-long timer put onto trials. Not players only having the time allotment to run a trial once. That is covered in the second half of the sentence, where I say players don't always have the time to run it for others. That is in direct contrast to themselves.



EDIT: You know, I realize this now, but I'm not sure if you and I are even on the same page. I'm not debating that level shifts don't play a role. I'm debating that the elitist playstyle isn't necessary and that it is infringing on other people's play. This point seems to be getting lost, so I'm saying it bluntly again.

Yes.




Now, I can't find the data in CoD, either. I can find where it lists enemies, but it doesn't have stats like resistances. So... yeah I'm going to go ahead and make the topic.

You're avoiding the point.



Not relevant. We are talking about DD, UG, and MoM; trials where you are requiring level shifts.


And I have succeeded with 50's on a league. So, my questions to you are these: Who is the exception? If there is a mixed team and they win, did something special happen there that wasn't supposed to happen? Something out of the ordinary that can't be applied to any other group that forms without making that group the exception? It is merely the random number generator being kind enough to make all those poor inaccurate unshifted hit more often? This is the problem with ineptitude being an arguing point; it has to assume that anyone who succeeds is overpreforming and failure should be the norm by the standards set. If your case is unshifted = failure, then you have to explain away all the cases where unshifted != failure while retaining the core essence that unshifted undoubtedly is equivalent to failure. This isn't a statistics game, either. You have to explain away the individual to whom statistics means nothing.

You're very apt to explain the failure due to level shifts in a way that isn't determined by the level shifts. If players are stubborn, ignorant, and show no initiative, then I submit that this problem supersedes the prior level shift problem on the account that a stubborn, ignorant, and intiative-less player can be the death of a trial even when level shifted to +3.

The opposite argument to ineptitude is so much easier to sustain because it isn't based on exclusion. If someone says "you can't do something", and then someone else does it, then that first someone is undoubtedly wrong. Though this isn't about all people not being able to do the trials with 50s, so save me the time of not having to deal with that random tangent. My case for winning trials with 50's on the team is not that I or anyone else is exceptional, but that we are average. Our performances are not indicative of the presence of some exceptional element for success, but rather the lack of elements for failure. Success is the normal outcome when things do not go wrong.



The problem is the 20 hour timer, not simultaneous trials.

No. Flametrhowers were so big of a target due to their visibility and the intimidation factor of being engulfed in flames. Last time I checked, shooting something filled with a flammable liquid doesn't even make it explode. The "effective range" thing is a big problem since most machine guns at the time (WW2) could shoot a flamethrower wielder long before they ever became dangerous.

Because you need to be at least level 52 in order to understand the instructions of "Use molecular acids on the doors", and level 53 to maybe type a response back where you ask me to clarify anything.


EDIT: is it just me, or is the art of compromise dead?