Ashtur

One thing I've never been able to figure out. NC Interactive (the NA subsidiary) has been bleeding money forever (I'd have to go look at the numbers again, but I know it's been red for as long as I've been watching it). Of course, that's PS, Carbine and the inhouse Aion conversion. I've never been sure if GW2 was included in that or not. There is a separate Arenanet entry, but the numbers there have been pretty small, so I don't think that GW2 development was in that.

So, is that constant red ink just a sign of the dev costs for GW2, Wildstar and the secret project? Or is there something I'm missing?

This may be elsewhere on the board, I've not read every thread in detail, but I took the time to go through NCSoft's statements back into 2008... and there is a definite trend in terms of CoH's income, and it's not good.

CoH/V Revenues (Millions of Won)

2007
Q4 5401

2008
Q1 5416
Q2 5743
Q3 6193
Q4 6865

2009
Q1 6837
Q2 6673
Q3 5471
Q4 3928

2010
Q1 3348
Q2 3941
Q3 5709
Q4 3239

2011
Q1 3055
Q2 2787
Q3 2812
Q4 3453

2012
Q1 2890
Q2 2855


You can see the bump from GR in Fall of 10, but then I also notice that Freedom didn't really spike revenue.

I'm not an accountant, and I have no clue what expenses were, but that's what they've published.

I'm not nearly so convinced that NCSoft is making this as a panic move. They had a bad quarter to be sure... but on the other hand, if you look at their results, their operating profit over the previous 3 quarters was 9x as much as their loss was in Q2. A company with a generally strong and profitable bottom line does not die after one weak quarter unless they get burnt on a short term cash flow crunch (which, considering how much cash Nexon pumped in 2 months ago, seems unlikely).

I still hold to my original thought. They looked at CoH's numbers, saw that it wasn't growing, and decided that made it expendable. I still don't get why they handled it the way they did (the clearing of the offices in one day), but I don't especially expect to hear of NCSoft going bankrupt any time soon.

Kinda funny really. I've not been playing much lately (kept the sub up though). I'm actually more down about it now than I was Friday. When it hit Friday, I was resigned. Dec 1... gone. Period.

For some reason, I got a little perk of hope today when I read this. It made just enough sense to be something to hold to.

Now, I'm back to my default position. It's dead, and will not be saved. I just feel worse about it. *sigh*

One thing to be cautious about though. While there is a fair bit of talk that "NCSoft is looking to leave the Western Market", I've seen absolutely no evidence that is true.

Yeah, they've got a huge investment in GW2, which they'd just punt if they pulled out of the Western market... so it's way too early on that.

Even more importantly though, if that were their goal, then Carbine would have been dismembered just as Paragon was. Until I see the death notice on Carbine and Wildstar, I won't believe that they're bailing on the western market. CoH/Paragon as a part of a larger retrenchment? Yeah, I see that, but not so much a retreat from the West. (Though they could get rid of their Korean League baseball team instead..)

Interesting. I find this rumor a bit more credible than all the hopes of this community taking the game over (I consider that to be a cold day in a place normally hotter than Phoenix, but I'm a pessimist).

Certainly, there would be a fair bit of work by a company like Sony (or whoever) to adapt to their system, but on the other hand, that is what they do.

I doubt though, that they'd really be looking at doing this unless they had a view much further down the road.

After all, for all the awesome that this game has done recently, financially it hasn't been that great. The revenue for the game has been flatlined since about GR. Freedom did not create the kind of growth that EQ or LOTRO or DDO saw. That's the deepest issue of all. So, unless someone thought their marketing engine could rev the game up, you're looking at a slowly dwindling fan base.

That sounds pessimistic, but that's why I mention the Long View. It makes sense if they are exploring the possibility of CoH 2. Now that could play for them. Keep CoH going, keep the core fans around, even keep the expansions going well enough to keep the community engaged, but use all of that as "marketing" as it were for the coming of CoH2, where they could then hope to make a bigger splash on the MMO community.

I am still putting the odds at 70/30 (or worse) against seeing Atlas Park on December 1, but this at least has moved the needle off of my former "not ever gonna happen" stance, so that's something.

There are few words that fit here, aside from Thank You! as well.

I'm glad you had as good a time working on the game as we did playing it. I've been part of the silent majority during my time here, but never doubt all your work and effort was appreciated. The "wow" moments of playing through new content, the sheer fun of Rikti Stomping. The simple fact that from here on out, all CoH-heads will be the only ones who truly know that it is all a Nemesis Plot.

Honestly, if you download and look at the NCSoft corporate info, it's pretty clear that CoH is a tiny, almost meaningless piece of the pie. The reduction in sales (worldwide) on Aion from Q1 to Q2 this year is 5x the entire revenue from CoH for the quarter. Yes, that's what I said. Not Aion's sales, just the margin of lower sales...

For better or worse, Paragon Studios and CoH are rounding errors in NCSoft's math.

I don't plan on giving them any more money to round off.

I've not been around the game much in a good long while, but I would certainly like to thank everyone at Paragon Studios who made City of Heroes happen. There's lots of good things in the game that people can point to, but in the end, I think it was just that everyone there "got it". They understood what a superhero MMO should be.

Salute, and I truly hope all you land on your feet with good jobs, and I hope to enjoy the fruits of your labor again at some point.

I think the new VIP content will be for those with VIP accounts, not based on what server they go to. If they wanted to do that, they'd simply "fence off" Virtue and Freedom as VIP servers already.

As I said on my SG's board a bit ago. I'm a Virtueite. Even if I've been sparse in game the last year or so, Virtue is my home. Heading off to the mystical VIP server, made up of exiles from Virtue, Freedom, Pinnicle, Liberty and so forth isn't going to "save" or "recreate" the Virtue Community. It'll create a new community, one likely to be more hostile to RP than the Virtue we've known (because of the non-RPers from other servers).

Why go to try to "recreate" Virtue when we already have it. Yes, there are going to be changes, but there always are! That doesn't even mention that I've been griefed I don't know how many times over the years. That's what the ignore function is for. In the end, Virtue will adapt. It will be different, to be sure, but it will be fine.

Virtue is my home.

Well, the squeaky wheel is the one that people normally pay attention to... so I'd like to chip in and say I'm more than satisfied with what I see here. It installed cleanly, is working like a charm, and I like the functionality I see.

/e thumbsup

This all sounds great to me! I'm highly looking forward to it!

There is one thing I've mentioned before that I'd like to bring up though. Alongside everything mentioned (not in place of, alongside) there really does need to be some Incarnate-level Arcs created. Have a new contact pop up after you complete Ramiel, or even trigger by getting a badge as you elevate your Incarnate status. These would be "standard" arcs for 1-8 players, but balanced for people who have Incarnate abilities.

I suggest this for a few reasons. First of all, it would be a nice change of pace for those who are not in the mood for one of the Trials at any given moment. Second, it would give you excellent opportunities to extend the Lore of Incarnates, (or to introduce foes worthy of an incarnate). It would also be a good thing for solo/small-team/casual oriented players as well. These wouldn't need (or even deserve) the types of rewards that the Trials give, but could give something of interest and worthwhile.

I have one last reason to bring it up. There's a certain level of... well, not quite contradiction, but at least dissonance between the way that Incarnates are presented and the way gameplay is shaping up.

Ramiel's arc and in some ways the very idea of "incarnates" points one towards a given character attaining rare and epic levels of power... surpassing nearly everyone (including all the shades from the first mission). However, once that's done, the entire approach of the game is to start breaking down that individuality and pushing people towards teaming.

I honestly don't think this needs to be an either/or, but should be a both and. Think of the Justice League. At different times, pretty much all the A-List characters have been on the team, yet they retain their own books. Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, they have their own enemies, their own stories, and pursue those thing. Yet, when the time and need comes, they join together as the Justice League. So far, what we've seen is the latter. We've got the "team book" forming up very nicely. However, I think the game would be better for having the "Solo Book" as well.

Now I recognize that you can only do so much per issue, and you may well have plans along this very line. I certainly hope so. I don't write this to take away from what has been outlined, as I think that sounds like an awesome system. I just wanted to bring out some ideas of what else should come along with it.

Up front, I'm also a serious introvert. I disdain PuG's outright, and am perfectly content to run solo all night long.

That said, I haven't seen anything that has been done so far, or has been hinted at in the future that is in the least bit concerning to me. The new Incarnate system is very much solable. I've managed to solo my way through Ramiel on both a Scrapper and a Dom for instance.

I will agree, that it would be good to have more Incarnate class content, and will hugely agree we need more incarnate class content that is outside of TF's and Events. I have no idea what I20 is going to offer, but I'd love to see 2-4 fully new Arcs from a contact(s) who gets in touch with you when you finish Ramiel. In fact, if I were a Dev (oh, those words of doom) that would be a high priority. Then, each issue after that should have that many new arcs again. (For that matter, give the Mission Architect the tools to create Incarnate Arcs).

That said, I think it is rather apalling to declare that CoH is to be the "introverts" game and that any steps down the road to having more team-oriented content is "robbing us of our game". When you say that, you're essentially saying "My fun is more important than yours." Yes, Eiko, that's what you are saying. You are putting your own enjoyment above that of others.

What we need, and should be calling for is a balanced design. One that has more than enough room for someone who wants to solo, including incarnate level... as well as major challenges that are team focused. A game that doesn't declare the game is for "this group" or "that group" but a game that has stuff for both groups. Frankly, I think that this game has generally done a good job of that. To that end, I'd like to see our Devs stay the course, and frankly, I've not seen anything that really indicates they were planning otherwise.

Honestly, I think that the Devs have missed an opportunity here. I guess I should have figured that the "Loyalty" thing was more a marketng ploy than an actual part of the betatesting. That said, as I said, it's an opportunity missed.

This close to GR, I rather doubt that the Devs see this expansion of the Beta-pool as testing a great deal, other than perhaps stress-testing (which is useful in and of itself). That said, it could have been more.

I've been on both sides of the betatesting process. I've tested games, and I've also been on the design side. I know when working on the design side, the thing I BADLY needed was more testers who were intent on really putting the game through its paces. Honestly, you can never have enough of those people. The ones who want to get into a game, dig at it, poke at it, and find issues. Ones who won't be upset when a bug pops up, but instead realize that's precisely why they are there... to find those bugs, so they can be dealt with pre-release.

Obviously, our Paragon Studios Overlords have a group of testers they've used over the course of time. However, a few more weeks for the 60 Month and Loyalty people would have given them a chance to scout for new blood. To see who really "gets it". Who understand that they are there not to simply preview the new shinies, but to help test the game.

I guess in the end, it's a matter of communication. What we have can't really be called "early access" (since we can't carry characters from the Beta to Live). On the other hand, it's closer to "early access" than it is to "testing". Or at least so it seems to me. So, to those who thought they'd get a chance to truly give back, by being part of the testing process, it's a bit disappointing.

I've been pretty sparse in game lately for a variety of reasons, but I think there are a few things that are in play here.

After nearly 3 years of leading an RP SG on Virtue (Gods of the Golden Age), one of the problems that really began to strike me is the rapid turnover of characters.

RP, especially any kind of Medium to Heavy RP is built on relationships. I'm not talking about "adult RP" or anything of that nature. It's built on connections that are built between characters. Friendships, rivalries, and yes, romances are also included in that.

Yes, the core of CoH is being a Hero (or villain as the case may be), but the core of RP is in dealing with other people. As heroes, as friends, such and so. You can emote all the nasty things you want at Recluse when you see him, but it ends up being a one sided conversation.

The problem begins when alts become part of the mix. It's certainly possible to juggle 2-3 alts, and still set up a vibrant "relationship web" for those people, that they have a pattern of interactions with other characters that keep them interesting. However, after that, you're spreading your time (and yourself) just too thin, and you'll end up unable to keep those webs living and active.

What's more though, is when people set alts aside when they hit 50. That was to me one of the most destructive things in an RP group that I ever saw. Someone who abandons a 50 (or at least backburners them) doesn't only affect themselves, but also sends a ripple effect through the entire "web" of a RP SG. Captain Shinypants just doesn't fight crime any more (come in game), and now, Mister Aboveaverage, (his old partner) just doesn't seem as fun to play any more... so he goes away as well. You keep that going, and soon the core of an RP group starts to look rather thin.

Now, with PLing becoming faster than ever, and Rest XP and all of those things, that effect has gotten even faster, even more pronounced.

To the guy who mentioned some pages back that CoH sales are down 40% in the last year.

Yes, sales are down substantially, but to say "AE nerf=collapse of City" is likely simplistic.

For instance, the release of the MA also had a boxed set release. How much did that affect the numbers for the 2 quarters after release?

How much is the fact that there is now another MMO that's in something of the same territory, in terms of setting and concept?

How much is the fact that the economy is not real hot at the moment (and was worse last year)?

How much is the fact that the game is getting a hair long in the tooth? (and the announcment of GR has led many to take a break to explore other vistas, planning to return when GR hits)?

Honestly, I have no clue.