Arcanaville
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Quote:Hmm. Based on those numbers, I'm guessing you were level 50 facing him as +2. Yep. That's how those powers are defined. The generic villain version of Claws Assassin's Claw is a 1.0 cast time power with no interruptible period and that hits for Scale 2.0 damage. Scale 2.0 is the highest any normal critter is usually allowed to hit for: Statesman's Total Focus-like power maxes at Scale 2.0 as does the hardest hitting of Lord Recluse's attacks. So yeah, I think this is probably a bit broken. They probably nullified the interruptible time but didn't increase the cast time to compensate; this is not the first time I've heard this complaint. I'll hit Castle up on this one and see what he thinks.Originally Posted by UberGuy
Maybe some of you have met Mangle. He's an NPC signature boss from the various alignment missions. He's supposed to be a Claws/SR, presumably, based on the experience I just had, a Stalker.
I say he's a Stalker because he has Assassin's Claw. That's fine and all, but look what he just did. This is taken from my chat logs, so that timestamps would be included.
Look carefully at the time stamps. He executed Assassin's Claw in approximately one second. Based on how it went in combat, I'm pretty sure it was less than that. In fact, I only saw him execute what looked like one attack.
Notably, the character I was on has about 1370 HP. So from my perspective, I was effectively one shotted by something that bypasses the one-shot code. (Not that there aren't many examples of this, but still.)
So... bug? Side effect of the recent AE critter change removing interruptibility from AE critter powers? Lingering case where his activation time is broken because he was given an uninterruptable AS? Or ridiculous intentional power? Totally dead people want to know. -
Quote:And it has a 20% chance in or out of hide to instantly recharge Build Up when it hits.Originally Posted by beyeajus
CS still hits like a ton of bricks.
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Quote:It would have to be all the way up to 42.77%, because as I mentioned Gale has 0.9 accuracy. Gale's intrinsic accuracy pulls you down closer to the 5% floor as a result: you would have to have 7.23% tohit after defense for Gale's 0.9 accuracy to pull you down to 6.51%Originally Posted by HelinCarnate
Higher level mobs perhaps? Not sure on the numbers on that. Or maybe rounding up to soft cap and was actually at 43.49%?
Or I suppose it could have been a +1 minion, and you'd then need 43.42% defense (net accuracy from a +1 minion with gale would be 0.9 * 1.1 = 0.99 accuracy).
Also, just for giggles, this is the probability of getting hit N number of times out of 100 swings if your random chance to be hit is 6.51%:
There's a 1.63% chance of seeing twelve hits out of one hundred when the chance to hit per swing is 6.51%. In other words, if a thousand people conducted this experiment, sixteen of them would probably see twelve hits. Its better than even money that at least one person would see sixteen or more hits.Code:hits chance 0 0.12% 1 0.83% 2 2.86% 3 6.51% 4 11.00% 5 14.70% 6 16.21% 7 15.15% 8 12.27% 9 8.73% 10 5.53% 11 3.15% 12 1.63% 13 0.77% 14 0.33% 15 0.13% 16 0.05% 17 0.02% 18 0.01%
A test for randomness would look more like this:
If the random rolls are interpreted to be 20-sided die, number of occurances of each face:
[198539, 198910, 198751, 197766, 199010, 197988, 199547, 198867, 199220, 199015, 198970, 198529, 199134, 198124, 197778, 198720, 198576, 199444, 198715, 198950, 250]
(the 250 is due to the rare occurances of the random roll 100.00)
20-bin partition, 2-tuple correlation analysis (number of times each number follows each number in two consecutive random rolls):
Number of times every single roll shows up from 0.00 to 100.00:Code:[9933, 9843, 9793, 9961, 10115, 9901, 10028, 9997, 9891, 9847, 9792, 9989, 10017, 9977, 9728, 9918, 10010, 9887, 9928, 9976, 9] [9924, 10065, 9923, 9835, 10105, 9678, 10104, 10079, 10017, 10132, 9867, 9978, 9809, 9779, 9818, 9938, 9996, 10171, 9928, 9754, 10] [9937, 9882, 9973, 9908, 9862, 9762, 10047, 9961, 9825, 9858, 9934, 9760, 10115, 9977, 9788, 9998, 9915, 10048, 10157, 10033, 11] [10099, 9904, 9704, 9824, 9622, 9905, 9897, 9952, 10057, 9870, 10025, 9935, 9659, 10067, 9846, 9934, 9735, 9964, 9853, 9900, 14] [10188, 9975, 9893, 9811, 10131, 9807, 9946, 9999, 10047, 9947, 10063, 9966, 9865, 9782, 9798, 9997, 10048, 9863, 9931, 9937, 16] [9762, 9840, 9973, 9905, 9911, 9878, 9959, 9846, 9969, 9938, 9957, 9860, 9906, 9950, 9908, 9944, 9846, 9862, 9929, 9824, 21] [9851, 9922, 9957, 10046, 10071, 10019, 10079, 9975, 9942, 9936, 10041, 9998, 9961, 9886, 10052, 9776, 9827, 10128, 9951, 10117, 12] [10057, 9837, 10065, 9906, 9849, 9872, 10029, 10013, 9760, 9832, 9933, 10011, 9928, 9864, 10059, 9929, 9923, 9989, 9982, 10019, 10] [9830, 9940, 10078, 9874, 10046, 9877, 9988, 9928, 10134, 9960, 9988, 9811, 10127, 9910, 9885, 9892, 10058, 9894, 9909, 10080, 11] [9721, 9881, 9912, 9910, 9890, 9878, 10153, 9910, 9875, 10080, 10053, 9870, 10054, 10020, 9979, 9992, 9957, 10044, 9811, 10014, 11] [9986, 9914, 10004, 9943, 10102, 9875, 9863, 10072, 9951, 9995, 9856, 9932, 9936, 9832, 10050, 10095, 9949, 9994, 9820, 9788, 12] [9996, 9843, 10007, 9946, 9933, 10003, 9946, 9920, 10019, 10026, 9958, 9801, 9741, 9909, 9830, 9916, 9844, 10043, 9949, 9887, 12] [9966, 10032, 10077, 9831, 10032, 9990, 9938, 10000, 9947, 9972, 9922, 9851, 10029, 9945, 9793, 9834, 9915, 10030, 10045, 9974, 11] [9825, 10016, 9895, 9881, 9785, 9849, 9987, 9642, 10063, 10020, 10014, 9867, 9751, 9790, 9868, 9959, 9968, 10048, 9896, 9991, 9] [9847, 10014, 9908, 9627, 9819, 9828, 9886, 9923, 9856, 9925, 9672, 10045, 10088, 9859, 9960, 9865, 9919, 9904, 9976, 9847, 10] [9814, 10061, 9939, 10013, 9858, 10027, 9890, 9821, 10091, 10028, 9795, 10089, 9961, 9736, 9972, 9916, 9862, 9884, 9973, 9978, 12] [9924, 9954, 10007, 9913, 10027, 9968, 9934, 9846, 9880, 9856, 10053, 9923, 9991, 9909, 9912, 9793, 9855, 9977, 9749, 10092, 13] [9921, 9994, 9826, 9880, 9912, 9937, 10073, 9916, 9985, 10046, 10095, 9960, 10154, 10055, 9798, 10021, 10083, 9910, 10041, 9824, 13] [10090, 9981, 9933, 9767, 10014, 9855, 9877, 9916, 9904, 9983, 9845, 9898, 9984, 9923, 9880, 9999, 9950, 9874, 9972, 10054, 16] [9862, 10003, 9871, 9971, 9916, 10062, 9910, 10134, 9986, 9753, 10093, 9976, 10044, 9950, 9841, 9994, 9900, 9917, 9903, 9847, 17]
Sample size: 3,974,803 to hit rolls.Code:236 380 555 346 376 483 362 373 349 500 376 363 368 451 376 352 461 394 357 353 516 371 363 492 375 367 353 474 356 365 370 468 350 392 502 380 331 321 513 361 392 339 499 351 358 482 351 372 343 476 359 377 468 345 351 371 488 376 367 386 454 364 341 467 376 379 355 487 365 423 478 372 361 349 514 377 351 366 479 386 384 498 383 361 378 472 358 379 429 498 352 346 464 349 386 395 478 370 364 475 340 391 348 501 386 387 368 476 345 399 479 337 380 369 458 364 349 494 346 334 384 479 363 346 360 473 343 388 481 379 370 392 486 369 354 346 462 324 379 467 367 363 344 479 373 334 443 390 410 366 481 348 395 370 475 362 392 463 401 390 347 455 342 335 495 327 390 376 504 383 389 360 510 353 391 488 379 351 355 465 346 379 354 508 347 349 482 379 362 377 513 378 385 457 376 392 367 467 367 363 357 434 375 366 514 368 352 339 472 390 359 511 399 357 366 460 366 358 355 528 364 361 485 348 372 377 504 393 358 471 356 389 353 469 360 410 382 462 353 350 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383 357 479 333 380 478 320 382 363 487 382 363 477 358 334 361 500 354 392 365 483 343 380 490 408 351 376 487 360 367 397 477 390 359 493 362 358 378 489 342 363 515 393 369 333 533 329 385 356 488 388 371 435 337 378 371 511 345 380 488 390 334 365 469 368 370 315 479 366 353 478 388 337 366 489 401 359 457 330 354 337 460 361 351 340 443 371 367 482 346 393 370 500 352 351 383 507 324 382 487 329 368 363 497 378 381 482 371 351 373 488 370 331 384 518 371 364 531 366 364 388 492 343 367 505 377 358 387 489 375 390 374 517 400 374 476 384 380 346 473 368 346 357 454 350 383 490 327 337 395 483 382 349 500 329 383 405 494 363 350 356 489 369 362 495 350 407 380 479 365 347 487 372 359 405 474 347 376 383 467 362 350 493 389 377 373 501 367 358 363 487 386 349 501 354 362 344 485 369 384 496 364 375 356 486 384 387 373 452 378 386 448 340 356 336 444 332 351 482 380 365 345 498 354 371 339 471 342 368 482 367 367 369 482 369 396 409 513 361 361 483 355 371 382 508 339 351 521 350 363 376 470 384 371 380 464 390 362 504 374 250
If you look at the numbers above, you can start to see the "beat" pattern I mentioned in my last post regarding the "randomness" of the rand(). I believe that is an artifact of the round-off formula and the binary conversion to decimal, and not a defect of the rand itself. It only affects the least significant digit of the random roll, and in a pattern not decimally aligned (meaning: as I said originally, no one could possibly notice without doing what I just did above). The distribution is otherwise apparently random, and certainly random enough for tohit rolls. -
Quote:No, the question really is why, not why not. For no powerset was the question why not; every powerset with mitigation-based debuff resistances were given those resistances because there was a good reason to add them, not because no one could give a good answer why they shouldn't have them. Regen faces the same hurdle as every other powerset in that regard: no more, no less.Originally Posted by Umbral
As to whether there is a logical reason to provide some debuff resistance to */Regen, I think the better question is to ask whether there is a reason for */Regen to be the only set out there without any debuff resistance. Every other set has some degree of debuff resistance to both primary (DDR in sets with native +Def) and secondary (-rech resist in sets with sets with 1 click power) attributes. What makes */Regen so different that it's assumed that it should have absolutely none (not even any substantial pseudo-debuff resistance like +def)? Is there any logical foundation for */Regen to not have debuff resistances? */Regen doesn't even have any of the exotic protections that sets with few debuff resists sport (like confuse prot, fear prot, +per) that would equate to roughly the same thing. While every other set in the entire game got debuff resists over the course of the years, */Regen was pretty much ignored. Is there actually a reason why or is it just a feeling that */Regen doesn't deserve buffs because it was awesome way back when?
But the most direct question is neither of them. The direct question is: who are regeneration debuffs supposed to hurt?
If they are too strong against *everyone* then they should simply be dialed back: making them strong and then giving everyone resistance to them is simply insane. Contrawise, giving debuff resistance to the things that get the most benefit from regeneration implies the purpose to regen debuffs is to hurt people who least benefit from regeneration debuffs, which is a different kind of insane. The same applies to recharge debuffs.
Regen (and recharge) debuffs are supposed to hurt. The strong ones are supposed to hurt a lot. If you want to make a case that regeneration should have either recharge debuff resistance or regeneration debuff resistance, you have to argue that it hurts more than intended. Arguments like "why not" are unlikely to be effective. -
Quote:Actually, what I'm thinking now is that it occurs to me Gale has 0.9 accuracy, even for critters. So I'm trying to figure out how a soft-capped player could end up with 6.51% tohit vs Gale. If you're genuinely defense soft-capped, 6.51% net tohit implies 1.3 accuracy from the attacker. That's what you'd get if an even level Boss was attacking you with standard attacks. I'm trying to think of a situation where you'd see 6.51% net tohit from gale being used by an minion or LT, and coming up empty.Originally Posted by Ironblade
No, what I'm thinking is that 100 rolls is a ridiculously small sample. You absolutely can not draw statistical conclusions from a sample size of 100.
Just to be certain, I tried this myself just now:
If you are really at the floor, Gale should only have a 5% chance to hit you, because its accuracy actually puts it in the hole: its actually lower than 5%, and forced to the 5% minimum floor.Quote:You activated the Elude power.
HIT Violet Rumble! Your Elude power is autohit.
Violet Rumble HITS you! Elude power was autohit.
You are now extremely Elusive, and almost impossible to hit.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Gale power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 92.87.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Charged Brawl power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 54.12.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Lightning Bolt power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 57.67.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Gale power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 15.74.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Charged Brawl power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 54.38.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Lightning Bolt power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 70.32.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Gale power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 72.13.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Charged Brawl power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 89.74.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Lightning Bolt power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 42.60.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Gale power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 46.52.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Charged Brawl power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 11.38.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Lightning Bolt power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 76.66.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Gale power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 70.19.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Charged Brawl power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 38.67.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Lightning Bolt power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 25.96.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Gale power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 7.89.
Possessed Scientist MISSES! Charged Brawl power had a 5.00%% chance to hit, but rolled a 15.78. -
Quote:Datamining methodology is extremely well guarded, and even my educated guesses are something I can't post beyond a certain point, but I will say that when Castle discussed datamining of blasters in I11 he did mention, and I did echo to the forums back then, that the devs do datamine both solo and teamed performance, for precisely the reason you mention: that teamed performance can dilute performance problems.Originally Posted by Umbral
I'm not even entirely sure that average leveling speed is even a decent measure of performance for specific sets within an AT anyways since leveling is so often done in a group and therefore minimizes the differences between the sets in question (due to dilution of importance while on a team), especially if it can somehow be used as evidence for not buffing a set that is known to be underperforming and has been known for a long enough time to make it largely common knowledge (pre-MA buff, I had met pugs that agreed that MA was rather limp wristed). Average leveling speed is useful for things like inter-AT balancing, but I honestly have to wonder how applicable it is for intra-AT balancing.
When the devs look at powerset performance, based on the I11 discussions regarding blaster performance it is safe to say that the devs look at least at:
1. Solo vs teamed performance
2. All combinations with other powersets
3. Performance at different level ranges (i.e. 1-5, 6-10, 41-45, etc)
4. Various reward earning rates: XP, influence, etc
5. Debt
6. General offensive output and kill speeds
The devs don't know there's a discrepancy. The conjecture that regen suffers inordinately from debuffs beyond what they should isn't universally accepted, nor has it been demonstrated conclusively by logical argument. Thus, datamining would be a way to verify that hypothesis, but I'm guessing that the data currently doesn't bear that out. If it did, there have been years for that data to accumulate: regeneration debuffs were added to the game a long time ago, but haven't accelerated rapidly in frequency since then to such a degree that there would be any reason to believe that the last year should be markedly different from the previous years.Quote:That's always been something that bothers me. If they know there is a discrepancy, why don't they take measures to address the discrepancy rather than waiting for data mining to catch up to what is already known (and, yes, they have to wait for the data to be created so that they have something to datamine in the first place)? -
Quote:Well, calculated models fail to take into account two things: the time-dependent nature of Regen, and the effects of debuffs. The effects of debuffs are a subject of some debate, but the time-dependent nature of Regen is not: to settle that score I did a high-precision comparison between the time-dependent model and the time-averaged model which showed that the time-dependencies do not disadvantage Regen enough to make average calculations' conclusions invalid.Originally Posted by Umbral
The only reason it is hard to justifiably buff */Regen is because, from the calculated survivability models we've got, */Regen looks really good. The problem with this, as I said before, is that the weaknesses of */Regen are downplayed while the the strengths are built up within these models. The reasons you actually posit for not buffing Regen aren't even largely true, anyways.
If someone wants to construct a better balancing model, they're free to do so. None so far has survived close scrutiny. Not surprising, as discrete time-based calculations show that the average models are guaranteed to approximate the time-dependent true performance of the sets to within single digit percentages for virtually all regimes the devs balance the PvE game for. Its not until you get to within 50% of the sustained performance of a soft-capped SR scrapper or equivalent in other sets that the numbers start to potentially diverge by enough to be meaningful at all (i.e. someone walking around with 40% defense to all). You have to get above soft-capping performance before the inter-set differences become meaningful, which is a different thing altogether.
In other words, if someone makes a different model, and it diverges from the average calculations by more than a little, its pretty much guaranteed to be wrong.
The real reason why its hard to justify a buff to /Regen is basically that (I'm assuming) there are a lot of regen scrappers, and on average they do very well. That's the same reason it took four years to buff MA even when the devs admitted there were on-paper issues with the set. -
Quote:I've checked the random number generator four times in the last six years. The most recent test for randomness was a test I completed the first phase of a few weeks ago after accumulating about 5 million random rolls (I'm eventually going to do a 100 million random roll analysis, once I have enough random rolls).Originally Posted by Warrior7
Dont know if anyone noticed or not, but the random hit roll counter is at least 10% standard calculations. My blaster has a 95% chance of hitting a possessed scientist minion of same rank. I battled this person twenty times and took the hit/miss calculations directly from the hit roll tab and dumped them into an Excel spreadsheet. The 95% actually turned into 82%!
What's worse is the defense. I've soft-capped the defense for the exact same minion and ran the numbers again. According to the hit roll tab, the scientist had a 6.51% chance of hitting me. After one hundred attempts, the enemy struck me twelve times--far more than a 6.51% chance!
Now I know what you are thinking... different attacks have different accuracy bonuses (a Warhulk's flamethrower has a smaller percentage to hit than it's chain-gun). In my calculations, I filtered out the other attacks and only used the possessed scientist's base attack (Gale in this case).
The "random" hit rolls are not generating numbers at random--this can easily be proven by looking at the tab when using hibernate. The "random" numbers are all programmed to miss when using that power. Unless the NPC's have streakbreaker, there's no way the numbers could be accurate.
Check for yourselves.
So far, I have discovered no evidence of non-random behavior. If you are logging chat and have all of the tohit rolls logged, and are willing to submit your findings to independent analysis, PM me and I will arrange to have your logs' random rolls analyzed. -
Quote:I think MA is likely to outperform EM till at least 26. After that point, I still need to think about and probably play test whether CK and the improved EC provide a better overall value to ET and TF (especially since both CK and EC provide full crits).Originally Posted by Jibikao
What do you think of MA Stalker? Do you think it's very comparable to EM since both sets have no AoE at all? If it's comparable to EM, so MA is the new favorite pvp build? I can't stand playing a set with zero aoe but it is just my personal preference because I team a lot.
I tried to plan a MA Stalker build and I just think there are so many overlapping ST attacks. -
Quote:I'm not sure we've seen optimized pylon runs with the new MA yet. But even if MA loses to DM on single target at the highest levels of recharge, its performance as you're leveling up in the first place is almost certainly higher than DM's is now due to the higher number of high DPA attacks that can be assembled into an attack chain.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
It's still pretty weaksauce for Scrappers, honestly. It lacks the single-target dps of DM, and the crit chance, while nice for the AOE, doesn't make it the be-all. Could use some more oomph (make Storm Kick a cone like Crow Control?) including another AOE and a better DPS chain. None of the top pylon-killing builds are MA. MA/Shields got hit pretty hard by the Shield Charge nerf.
Nobody (well, almost nobody) wanted or needed MA to be "the be-all" especially in AoE, but its certainly not "weaksauce" either. In fact, I'm always suspicious of anyone that doesn't seem to acknowledge there exists anything between weaksauce and be-all.
I actually strongly recommended that a particular change in beta that would have made it even stronger in top-end ST damage than it is now be backed off a little because I was worried it would have made MA overpowered and a target for a post-live nerf. Just because I worked for MA buffs for over four years, doesn't mean I wanted it to be stupidly overbuffed. -
Quote:My recommendation: turn on chat logging and make sure its logging all tohit rolls and combat messages.Originally Posted by Slashman
Ok...maybe someone like Arcanaville can explain this better.
I've never been a fan of defense sets. Mostly because anything remotely based on 'luck' generally means it will fail for me. But even I am kind of appalled at how quickly and easily I died in this situation.
Was doing a tip mission with my level 22 SS/SR brute Parity.
Now I have Focused Fighting and Focused Senses each 4 slotted with two 25 common defense IOs and a 20 common defense IO as well as a single 20 end reduction IO. That's 21.04% to melee and ranged.
Then I have both Agile and Dodge two slotted with a 25 and 20 common defense IO for 7.57% to melee and ranged.
I have evasion only slotted with a single end reducer so it is at its base of 13.88%.
Ok...I do a tip mission and engage a +1 slag golem boss and a minion. I hit rage and dispatch the minion first. Then I start in on the boss. And it is just hit after hit after hit on me like I have no defense at all. Ironically...his AoE attack missed. But every melee just landed before I could even get him down to 1/3 of his health.
Now I had a small and medium green and used them both over the course of this fight but he just kept hitting. I know I have lousy luck...but that was insane. Is that level of defense simply inadequate for fighting +1 bosses? Even my elec/elec never got taken out quite so fast by a slag golem boss at 22. I felt like wet tissue paper.
And that's not the first time I have gotten beat down due to insane hits time after time. What level of defense is even considered adequate in a situation like that?
I don't know why, but whenever I ask someone to do this so I can see it for myself, the problem goes away. I think chat logging grants the player a +35% defense bonus or something. -
Quote:It lowers them to zero. Even if the devs took the magnitude protection away, you'd still be immune to KB.Originally Posted by DSorrow
To elaborate, most mez protection toggles have something like 10000% KB Resistance, which effectively lowers all KB values to 0.01 or whatever the lowest possible value is. The nice thing is that the resistance kicks in before the protection, making you basically immune to any KB effects.
KB resistance is a magnitude resistance, not a duration-based resistance like most mez resistances. 100% KB resistance means zero magnitude KB, just like 100% damage resistance (if you can get it, and some critters can) equals zero points of damage through it. -
Quote:"The game" isn't balanced around anything. That's a colloquialism that creates traps like this. Once you get more specific, these questions tend to evaporate.Originally Posted by Hai Jinx
While I can fully understand the Idea of not balancing the game, or powersets around IO's... Wouldn't ideally it be balanced around both Casual AND "Elite" builds.
The difficulty of critters relative to their reward and commonality is balanced around mostly SO builds, and to some degree on average slotting patterns in the game. It has to be, because a critter cannot get stronger based on how strong the player is. If a critter is made to be of a particular level of difficulty, it will be harder against players weaker and easier against players that are stronger. That's unavoidable. So you have to pick a target: the PvE experience can't really be "balanced" around two entirely different power levels. The difficulty slider is there to help smooth this out: stronger players can call up higher difficulty. But that's not the same thing as "balancing" the game around two different levels of power. Even without the difficulty slider, players with more power can just go fight more stuff, although they will probably have to do it in hazard zones rather than instanced missions. And they will earn more rewards.
Individual powersets *are* balanced around both low and high levels of slotting to some degree, but its a different kind of "balancing." In general, the devs try to make sure that no powerset exceeds certain (very high) levels of performance regardless of slotting opportunties, and also the devs try - with less success - to make sure all powersets have similar but not necessarily identical levels of opportunities to benefit from high-end power enhancement opportunities.
But the devs explicitly do not attempt to make sure that every powerset will end up with the same level of performance after min/maxing to the greatest possible degree. First because they honestly don't care all that much, and second because the amount of work that would be required would be extremely high for minimal benefit, and thirdly because given the tools available to them attempting to do so would almost certainly ripple down to the lower levels of performance in undesirable and unnecessary ways (some players think that already happens now, but they are almost always wrong about that perception).
Balancing is not a "thing." Balancing is a term that collectively represents dozens of different individual things the devs do to moderate, constrain, normalize, or target performance. A while back I described the basics of PvE balancing and also listed over a dozen things the devs do that are technically "balancing" and Castle suggested publicly that even that list was incomplete. -
Quote:Well, the knockback protection in PB (as it is in all melee defenses that have KB protection in general) is essentially 100% perfect immunity, so stacking can't help there. But as to the regular protection, I have occasionally seen something break through PB's protection. For one thing, the mag protection scales upward with level, so its only 10.4 at level 50. At level 30 its closer to mag 8. Three mag 3s can break that.Originally Posted by Werner
I do think that double-stacking it for very long is overkill. I like a decent overlap just so that I don't have to click it immediately, and in case I'm recharge debuffed. But I can't remember anything knocking me back or otherwise mezzing me with 10.4 points. It's probably happened, but it's not something I remember. Frankly, mine has a endurance reducer in it, though I do have a metric ton of global recharge.
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Quote:The 2:1 I'm referring to is the same one you're thinking about, and it was heavily abused. I can think of at least three separate ways:Originally Posted by Werner
I assume we're talking about the resistance:defense ratio. As a rule of thumb, two points of resistance is "equal" to one point of defense. Like many rules of thumb, it's overly simplistic, usually slightly misleading, and in edge cases highly misleading. Still, it's probably better than knowing nothing at all when trying to make resistance vs. defense decisions. And frankly, I think the 45% number is even MORE benign. It might not be the whole picture, but if you know that one thing, even if you don't understand all the exceptions and subtleties, I think you're way ahead of most people.
But maybe I just haven't seen and I'm not guessing how rules of thumb like this are being misunderstood and abused.
1. People assumed this worked as an incremental rule. In other words, they assumed that if 2X resistance = X defense in total that meant it was safe to assume that adding Y defense to a build was the same thing as adding 2Y resistance to a build. So adding 5% defense is like adding 10% resistance. But the rule only works for absolute totals when it works at all, not incrementally. Adding 5% defense to something that has nothing is the same as adding 10% resistance. But adding 5% defense to an SR scrapper is worth way more than adding 10% resistance.
2. People assumed (and some still do) that this was a balancing rule. So they would compare powers and say that if (for example) SR is allowed to have 5.625% passives, then Invuln should be allowed to have 11.25% resistance passives to be "fair." Ignoring typing, stacking, powerset balance issues, and the fact that passives and toggles aren't even balanced that way even within the same kind of mitigation: all defense toggles don't have the same value, all resistance passives don't have the same value.
2a. Corollary: A lot of people still think this means resistance inspirations are broken.
3. People assumed (and some still do) that this should be a design rule and apply to critter debuffs.
Its true that these days a lot more forum readers are mechanics-savvy, and are less likely to fall into such traps, but I think the 45% rule is starting to reach players less aware, and they are falling into the same kinds of traps: that 45% is the "target" you should reach for (ignoring defense debuffs which will knock you off the floor), or that nothing has higher tohit (ignoring pets and turrets, and also sometimes tohit buffs which are more plentiful on the red side than the blue side: something that catches new red-side players off guard sometimes). And while it took a lot of effort to correct this misconception, I'm starting to see a slight uptick in people who don't know all the background and believe that 45% knocks you down to the tohit floor of 5% not aware of the effects of accuracy on the tohit "floor." -
Quote:Anyone who thinks City of Villains had level 1-50 content must have bought it after Issue 7 came out, which was over seven months after CoV released.Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
When CoV was released the direct download was $50. bucks and the boxed Collector's DVD Edition was $60. bucks. There's no way you paid $35. for it when it was released, and you can't complain about the prices each cost when you get one out of the bargain bin and the other fresh of the shelf the day it comes out.
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Quote:I repeat, because you've given me nothing else to counter: this is not a true game design principle. Most people feel damage enhancements are necessary and slot them. This does not mean there exists a problem with damage of some kind. The principle above doesn't work as a general rule.Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Fact: Most people feel that Stamina is necessary. Fact: Most people take Stamina. Fact: Most people feel that there is no alternative. This in itself suggests that something about how the game's basic design interacts with Stamina is broken. If damn near your entire playerbase is always taking a single power every time, then something is wrong.
If you want to assert this as a good game design principle by axiom, I can't construct an argument to counter an axiom, but I'm also pretty certain the devs won't honor it either. -
Quote:I am well aware of the numerical properties of Rest. My original statement factors them in entirely within that context. In fact, when I first recommended that Rest be further reduced to between 60 and 90 seconds instead of 180 seconds, I posted an entire numerical analysis justifying those numbers which included the specific mechanics of Rest factored in. Those recommendations still stand.Originally Posted by Umbral
What people are arguing for isn't the simplified fight or die model that you seem to be interpreting them as arguing for. Rest, even with an instant recharge, still represents a loss of time (which is exactly what death is). If you survive with 100% of your resources intact, you can can head to the next fight without waiting. If you survive with 10% of your resources intact, you have to spend the next 17 seconds using Rest. The use of Rest is, in and of itself, a cost that you are having to pay. If you manage your health and endurance intelligently, you won't have to pay the cost in downtime as often, which still provides a reason for you to take powers that supplant Rest as a primary source of after combat recovery while those same powers still provide you with in combat recovery capabilities. Removing the recharge wouldn't somehow remove the impetus to make a character more self-sufficient. All it would do would be to make Rest a viable but still suboptimal alternative, which, unless the devs honestly want everyone to take Stamina and/or a powerset with an endurance assistance power (which I think they've outright said they don't want to do), would be an intelligent thing to do.
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Quote:The one shot rule says you cannot be killed by one shot from full health. As long as you start at full health, one shot cannot kill you. One point less, and you can be one-shotted.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Seriously; Where to people keep getting this idea from?! It's not true! Go in game, go up to a mob of even con or higher, and hit rest. In fact, to prove it, go to the warzone or somewhere and walk up to the biggest, nastiest Rikti you can find. Then rest in front of it.
You. Will. Die.
One shot, one kill. End of story.
There is no one-shot rule. Or if there is, its only in very extreme cases.
The experiment you ask people to do above is how people farmed Immortal. I even was one of the first to recommend using Rikti to do it, and found one of the faster two-box methods for doing it (using Rikti bosses that only had the greater sword melee attack). So I'm pretty sure of the one-shot rule. -
Quote:That's actually not why its called the defense soft cap. The term "soft cap" has actually been used for a very long time to refer to situations where more can be useful, but beyond a certain point there is a sudden dramatic shift downward in how useful more is. With defense specifically due to the fact that tohit from critters was variable, there wasn't an easy way to describe defense limits like there was with resistance caps. We used to say there was no cap on defense, because no matter how much defense you had, more could theoretically always be better (out to the limits of how much defense you could likely acquire). So even back in '04 and '05 people were referring to a "soft cap" for defense which basically meant, relative to a very specific set of circumstances, that level of defense would drop you to the tohit floor**. But it was extremely situational, given how many variables could affect this. But it was the only way to be able to answer players' questions on the forums.Originally Posted by Silverado
Like I said, it is widely established that the defense softcap is 45%, and the reason it's soft and not hard is because there are a handful of situations (as I stated in my original answer, barring defense buffs and/or enemies with increased to-hit) where it won't effectively cap your defenses. What is this crucial piece information that, acording to your widdle brain, I left out?
But no matter what the circumstances, one specific loophole would always get you: defense debuffs. So we all (i.e. the people who discussed this stuff knowledgeably back then) knew that no matter how much defense you had, you could always be debuffed off of the tohit floor. Resistance debuffs didn't really exist back then, so this was only true for defense. So we used to say: this much defense is more or less the soft cap for a given general situation***, and more is good for protecting you from defense debuffs.
When the I7 critter accuracy scaler change occured, the situation simplified radically. Now, you didn't have to specify situation quite so arbitrarily, because you could now say "for minions, LTs, Bosses, and AVs, from even con to +5, the defense soft cap is 45% defense. BUT more is better because of defense debuffs."
That was the common way to describe defense post-I7. The phrase "soft cap" was always used to refer to the fact that defense was subject to situational effects that other mitigation wasn't (at least back then), and it solidified after the I7 changes to specifically refer to the fact that defense was very likely to be debuffed. Not rarely or uncommonly, but frequently. At least unless you had extremely high defense debuff resistance, and even then a point or two above 45% is still considered a reasonable cushion for soft-cappers.
The term "soft-cap" was never commonly used to refer to the fact that 45% defense was almost always good enough. Its actually the reverse: its always been historically used to caution people that exactly 45% is almost never good enough to stay at the floor. But how much *more* you want above 45% is subjective, and thus "soft."
And that is why this is not just a question of semantics. The very term "soft-cap" is supposed to be a reminder to tell people that 45% defense is never enough to stay on the floor, and that the situations where this won't be true are extremely common. Even an SR scrapper with 95% debuff resistance is going to want to be at 46%, say, just to provide enough cushion to stay above the tohit floor under the influence of debuffing; more if they intend to encounter massive numbers of high-order debuffers. How much more depends on the powerset and the situation. Without this warning, even if you discount pets, even if you discount turrets, even if you discount tohit buffing, you'll *still* find yourself getting knocked off the floor, and *often* due to the incredibly common nature of defense debuffs in the game. This is an important fact for people interested in building to the "soft cap" to know: 45% is a very arbitrary target in City of Heroes. You still have to think about how you intend to use it. Whereas 90% resistance doesn't have nearly the same requirement to think very hard about it.
The soft cap is soft because almost everyone can benefit from at least a little more than that in real-world circumstances. But how much more depends on what you do, which is why that's the initial point of discussion, and why we can't specify any better without knowing more details. And this has always been the way the term soft-cap has been canonically used: to refer to this situational aspect to defensive benefit limits.
** We used to say "drop to the tohit floor of 5%" because we all assumed you could always reduce tohit to that level. We collectively learned that wasn't true between I4 and I5 when Stargazer first figured out via testing that accuracy was multiplicative, and I incorporated that into my defense testings and realized that this meant some critters had enhanced accuracy that made it impossible to floor them to 5% - Gunslingers was my canonical example from I5, which have intrinsic 2.0 accuracy and thus cannot be lowered below 10% tohit - even before the I7 changes which make the number even higher due to rank bonuses.
*** "General situation." We used to talk about how much defense you would need to floor a mission of +3s, for example. Which, in I2, would be 85% unless an AV was going to show up. But that was only true if you were not debuffed. Thus, the need to say 85% is good enough for +3s, barring debuffs. That is, we used to say this to within the limits with which we knew the numbers, which was pretty accurately for critters back then. -
Quote:Death is also not desirable. Its there specifically because its not desirable.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Interestingly enough, you haven't stated why you think downtime is desirable.
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Quote:Um, what I said was:Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
That's interesting coming from you, Arcana, because you're putting words in my mouth. I never said the problem was that people get too little recovery and the obvious solution was to increase recovery. What I said was that there is a problem with Stamina being too popular and "a solution" was necessary. I never specified what that solution would be, as I don't know what that solution would be.
That's virtually an exact paraphrase of what you just said above.Quote:This is often stated as the reason to increase recovery: because most players take stamina (assuming this is true) there's obviously a problem that needs to be rectified by making stamina less "necessary."
This was in direct response to the sentence I quoted:Quote:I have absolutely no idea what this paragraph even says. It seems to suggest that, with the right application of spin, Stamina's popularity can be presented as being normal and acceptable. However, when I look at a power that everyone feels they should take, this in itself is evidence that something must be done. Higher recovery, lower bonus for Stamina, better alternatives, stronger endurance reduction enhancements, faster-recharging Rest, just SOMETHING.
You can't have everyone always taking the same power at the same level on every character and call this working as intended. If the obvious design consequences is that there is no choice perceived, then there should be no choice presented, because that's what it results in anyway.
Good game design doesn't say that. Good game design says if you have to choose between A and B, and A and B are exclusive options - you can have one but not the other - then in general they should each ultimately offer similar net value relative to each other. Otherwise, that choice is flawed from a gameplay perspective. But when you're given a choice to pick 10 out of 20, there is no game imperative that says A must equal B must equal C must equal D must equal Z, because the opportunity costs of selection are far lower when the choice of A doesn't preclude B.Quote:Good game design dictates that any one choice should not overshadow all others, and that if it does, steps should be taken to narrow the gap.
The converse of this fundamental design fallacy exists in CO's power selection system. Because prerequisites are weak and choice exclusivity essentially doesn't exist at all, players are ironically funneled into very self-similar sets of choices overall. No matter how much you try to distinguish yourself, no choice you make ever steers you in any direction, so you end up covering the same ground.
It also makes the game less alt friendly as a consequence, because there are less choices that are consequential to builds. If nothing else, I have CO to thank for providing me with an exemplar of this design principle, whereas before I could only talk about it hypothetically. As far as I know, they were the first ones to make this mistake in a large enough scale to reference, and I can't imagine anyone being foolish enough to make it ever again. -
Quote:Fiery Embrace is not a damage buff, and thus has nothing to do with the damage buff cap (and what we call the "damage cap" is really the "damage buff cap"). Fiery Embrace is more like a proc: when its up your attacks do a separate "tick" of damage. That tick is pure damage, not a damage buff.Originally Posted by Nightchill_EU
No no no, my point is: Scrapper damage cap is +400% (and you hit that on second FS and about steady on that with a good Kin), Fiery Embrace raise it OVER it because its not couted on the +damage line. What about the other damage boost?
Saying FE allows you to go over the damage cap is kind of like saying putting five damage procs into Brawl allow it to go over the damage cap of Brawl. I understand the sentiment that is being attempted to be expressed, but its something to avoid because it can cause confusion when people try to figure out what's going on and end up thinking the wrong things about the power. -
Quote:Pets and Turrets don't have a permanent power, or a buff, that increases their tohit. They literally have higher tohit. 75% base it normal for them. They are a relic from the days when everything had different base tohit, and there was no such thing as "normal tohit."Originally Posted by Silverado
Even if I was insufferable enough to engage in a pointless debate about semantics, you'd still be wrong because believe it or not, certain words can be used in a different context than usual. Elements in game mechanics can be "buffed" and it doesn't exclusively refer to applying a power on something.
Didn't Fiery Aura and Martial Arts get buffed recently? what do you mean it wasn't done through a permanent power that increases your to-hit and damage
Context 1 - Obnoxious Nitpicking 0
I mention it these days because people keep forgetting they have higher base tohit, and they are not rare. Malta turrets are not rare in those levels, for example. And with AE missions, pets aren't always rare either, not just because you see more controllers and masterminds, but because custom critters tend to use more powers that invoke pseudo-pets. People still ask questions regularly about why things can sometimes reliably hit through their soft-capped defenses even when they are not debuffed, so its important to remind people when that can occur. And the canonical answer is: tohit buffs, and things with normally higher tohit**.
Pets and turrets were never buffed. Historically, their tohit was actually reduced from their originally higher levels, and in I7 pets were left alone (they had 75% tohit at the time) and turrets were reduced (from 90% to 75%).
The original tohit of critters was, for those interested in the history, 50% for minions, 62.5% for Lts, 75% for Bosses, 90% for AVs and pets, and 105% for Turrets. This was reduced to 50%/57.5%/65%/75%/90% in I5ish. Then to 50%/50%/50%/50%/75%/75% in I7, with the new rank accuracy modifiers set to 1.0/1.15/1.3/1.5/1.0/1.0.
** And technically, anything more than five levels higher than you also has enhanced tohit. And that also isn't a buff per se, its a combat modifier. We don't typically say that +6s debuff our damage, and neither do +6s get buffed damage either. -
Quote:No, I'm saying your guess as to what the majority of players are experiencing may not be accurate.Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Huh? What does that have to do with people either surviving OR NOT surviving a single encounter?
Are you saying that because some folks run into spawns with less than capped levels of health/power that making Rest instantly recharge would allow them to not do that? Well, folks have the option now to be careful. It's just whether they're going to learn from their mistakes or not.
But they didn't only datamine debt. They datamined XP performance. The average blaster performance lagged significantly from the average performance across the board (actually the average blaster performance for all blaster powerset combinations for all level ranges in and out of teams lagged significantly from the average, which is an even stronger statement). That can't be the result of a minority of outliers.Quote:Actually wouldn't that only be true if the median blaster was debt-capped? Outliers would skew the average, no? I mean if 33% of Blasters completely sucked at it and were debt capped. And the other blasters had about a quarter of that, then the average would be 50%, but most blasters wouldn't be debt capped. No?
Technically, within encounters to minimize what I have to do between encounters. In other words, I don't tend to play to just barely survive a single fight, which I know will put me in a position to have to rest between fights. Even with stamina and health, doing so would still mean a significant amount of downtime.Quote:Within encounters? Or between encounters?
Now look who's taking the argument to the extreme. I supported the initial recharge reduction of Rest. In fact, I argued at the time that the correct recharge value for Rest should be closer to 60-90 seconds. That would be congruent with it being up about every three to five fights or so (at lower levels) and could be slottable if you wanted to be up every other fight or so. If you really want to rest every fight, you could choose to pay the slots to do so and take Hasten, you'd just have to pay for that option just like you do every other game play option.Quote:This is taking the argument to the extreme. Downtime should only exist if by its existence it offers gameplay options that wouldn't be there otherwise. So if the resource management game is fun, then SOME downtime is acceptable.
I actually agree that a minimal amount of downtime is acceptable. I think Rest's "time-out" where you have to make sure you're in a safe place and then wait until full meets all the requirements of downtime. There's simply no need to force low level players to stand around for up to 3 minutes waiting for their health to recover. That's not fun, and really serves no legitimate purpose other than to make the Fitness pool a complete no-brainer.
What I'm saying is the notion that this game is designed or intended for fights to be balanced around survive-or-die without inter-fight consequences is false, nor is it something I would like to see the game move towards. There are arguments for adjusting the recharge of rest that are valid even within the confines of the current game's design. But I reject the argument that "downtime ain't fun, so the devs are idiots for keeping it around." Its the same argument used for so many changes that are nothing more than personal preference attempting to masquerade as game design savvy. And it makes presumptions dangerous to make. CO has a virtually zero downtime gameplay mechanism. It doesn't specifically seem to be appreciated by noticably more players than CoH's constrained resource system (and I'm not making a straight subscriber comparison here: I'm specifically talking about whether the average player would, in isolation from all other factors, prefer CO's resource system over CoH's system, all other things being equal). Changing this kind of thing just because everyone "knows" downtime is bad is specifically something that I was pretty sure wasn't a safe assumption, and CO demonstrated to me that caution was justified. This is definitively not a gameplay axiom.