Apophasis

I'm curious. What makes you figure that Power Proliferations are due then? Is there a cycle they follow?

All right. Still-- anything you want to take up with me, send me an in-game tell or use the Forum messenger.

If I remember too, there was an RP etiquette Kadekawa and others adhered to. Eg, if your character "died" (HP brought down 0), it would be considered being knocked out -- the details of which you'd work out. They would not be allowed to just Hosp and rush back into the fight. They only way they could be allowed back up was if there was someone who could use a resurrect power on them, or if they had a self-revive -- both of which had to be explained somehow, or if they had a wakie (which would be RP'd as some kind of stimulant kit usually)... Of course, this was before you could convert inspirations, but it worked out pretty well.

If both sides had healers and the match went nowhere? So be it, the armed part of the conflict would end in a stalemate.

For sure we'd need some kind of etiquette for events, just because of how Arena and zones work these days. But also sometimes hosping and jumping back into the fight is fun too (I remember that one Warburg event in summer 2007 allowed that -- but there the concern was getting the villains to not launch the nuke, so the hospital service was RP'd as Rikti transport technology as it is in canon). Again, it would have to depend on the event.

I'd also love to see base raiding reenabled.

PvP = i4, ED = i6.


See Elmer's post. You can make perfectly respectable builds with the same price you might spend on IOing a PvE toon. Plus, alignment merits make top tier non-Purple and non-PvP IOs very acccessable to casual players (not to mention how much profit can be made by selling those IOs-- 2 alignment merits for an LOTG+global recharge at any level!?)

But it's another issue to make people aware of how to go about building something for the PvP environment that won't cost them multi-billions.

In any event, with PvP, if there's a will, there's usually a way.

By this I mean general power set changes and tweaks that have always gone on.

I'm also not here to debate people into taking up RPvP. I'm listening to people's feedback, which will contribute to future events. That's like trying to argue someone who's never had chocolate before (or who's only had cheap, moldy, sub-par kinds of chocolate) into liking chocolate without ever giving them an actual taste of quality chocolate. People make up their decisions about RPvP based on actually going out there and participating in events. This isn't like arguing politics, or trying to convert someone to a new position or lease on life.

You're also doing a fantastic job of pulling things I've said out of context and dwelling on the most negative interpretation possible of them. If you want to take something up with me personally, send me an in-game tell at @Apophasis, or use the forum messaging service.

The agreement is regarding the effects of PvP mechanical changes on RPvPers:

Then I go on to say that the RPvP community was strong into i14-15 (almost a year following i13's release). Also, if you read the earlier posts in this thread, there are some of people citing the i13 changes as a reason why they don't PvP. Why I am not convinced that this is a major factor is because how RPvP is relatively casual, and how it has adapted to ED, introduction of IOs and Purples, and nerfs/buffs left, right and center to every power set in the game.

Where have I dismissed responses? I haven't responded to everyone's, but that doesn't mean I didn't read or consider them.

And if it's about the response to Kyuuen's -- who's opinions are perfectly legit, even if they're a bit acerbic -- it's one sarcastic response to another between them and myself ;-)

You know what, in my experience lately, I'm inclined to go so far as to say that a lot of RPers take PvP even more seriously than the hardcore community takes Test. I guess it'll really depends on how you market/implement the specific event.

People in this thread are making complaints about i13's PvP mechanics making their builds less viable in PvP, but I'm inclined to agree with you Warp. In fact, from who I've talk to so far, it seems like it wasn't the change in game mechanics that turned people off from RPvP, but rather the domination of one RPvP group over all others, to the point where it seemed futile to even bother RPvPing. This also occurred in i14 or i15 (according to Malech and a few others I've talked to), well after the PvP changes.

Back in the RPvP days that I remember (~2005-2007ish), people were not concerned too much with game mechanics, though it may've featured in here and there a little. Hell, if I remember correctly, Kadekawa's only travel power was Combat Jumping w/ Sprint.

If you actually read my post, I didn't say anywhere that RPvP was anything but optional. My post is also more about event organization than trolling RPers in the D.


Actually, it was a hyperbolized anecdote inspired by previous experiences on Virtue (and to some extent other RP communities). In reality, my toons pretty much never go out of there way to pick a fight. They may do so to react against provokation, injury and offense, but usually try to settle it in a civil manner. I'm probabley one of the more modest players you're going to meet. People have in the past tended to pick on my characters for some reason or another.

RPvP is completely optional. It can, however, provide people a means with which objectively evaluate an outcome / actually prove just how "bad ***" (substantiation) their toon is that they claim -- something which I notice to be a consistant problem in any RP community where the RPers are not in harmony about the direction they want an arc to develope. Again, it is not manditory, but the double-edged sword that is RPvP certainly presents a challenge to antagonistic toons and their players.

Again, no one is forcing you into RPvP. I've also met quite a few RPers who spend 1-3billion on multiple concept characters.

Further, let me ask you this: do all of your characters have to be demigods and Mary Sues? What's wrong with RPing an inferior character, or letting a character's strength to develope?

Almost all of my toons are slotted exclusively for PvP. Their PvE performance is still excellent, though admittedly not as effective as they could be, since their focus is single-target rather than AoE, and there's less of an emphasis for high recharge these days in PvP. (Also that Defender is Cold/Sonic... If I made a PvE version for him, it wouldn't look a heck of a lot different). The issue at that point is more play style in PvE. There aren't too many builds that excel in PvP which under-perform in PvE -- it's usually the other way around. You're right to say that PvP builds aren't optimized for PvE, but they are all still very effective.

Getting to the RP part of that, I would be inclined to take the performance of thematically weaker/but PvP superior "in spirit." Perhaps the sword, unbeknowest to its user, uses an alloy that is a weakness to said Supergirl? But it would really vary depending on the concept. I would actually demand at that point that the thematically weaker toon come up with a stronger concept as to why they were able to defeat your toon, or you could use that as an RP hook to explain that there something much deeper to their powers/talents?

Being able to solo AV's, but do poorly against other players is also be something taken in spirit and could be explained in a similar way-- Maybe your character came better prepared to the fight against the AV -- Which if you notice, contacts for AV missions tend to give you clues and souviners which are supposed to help your character survive in and defeat the AV. Similarly, how would you ICly explain being able to solo an AV at +0, and getting your *** handed to you at +4? You would take difficulty "in spirit", right?

But in all honesty, you are right. If your RP style includes RPvP, you will probably have to adjust your build for it.

You're right that there will are always be disagreements on rules, and that people will ultimately choose to RP however they want. However, I've always RP'd game mechanics as perfectly legitimate RP rules, insofar as them being governing laws of nature for the dimension, subject to the delicate flow of cosmological forces and whims of super-dimensional beings that maintain universe CoX takes place in. And why not? This is a superpowered universe where gods and mortals coexist. Conventional battle tactics we see in real-life don't quite apply in CoH's universe. A guy wielding dual pistols is not going to take down an Invulnerability tanker, unless the latter is clumsy -- in which case, you would RP it as exactly that, clumsiness, and/or that the DP user is using special rounds.

CoX canon does this too when they try to explain the uniformity of powers across origins, and when they try to warn you of enemies you'd be vulnerable to (like psychics and mezzers usually). You might object and say "But how can a psychic blaster beat my purely robotic, artificial-intelligence MM?" Again, you would take it in spirit. Psychics easily translates to psychokinesis, which includes the manipulation of physical objects using mind alone, so each psychic blast can be something that rends away at the wiring, or disrupts the flow of electrical signals.

But ultimately you're right, it's about consent to RP rules, so it doesn't degenerate into an e-peen waggling fest under the guise of RP.

I've fought some badass fliers before. It's not FOTM, but that doesn't make it less deadly. It takes a lot practice to get flight to work for PvP, but if you can do it, you're potentially more dangerous than an SS/SJer. CF. @Annihilius' Ice/Rad flier. The kinds of travel powers you take in PvP aren't as much of an issue as how to use and slot them optimally.

Yeah no argument there. Tons of trollers/griefers/haters/elitists in the PvP community, as much as PvPEC tries to discourage it in official events. In our Fight Nights, Smallzies and I have zero tolerance toward that kind of behaviour. Zones are unmandated, though.

Also, that's not really RPvP per se, but I'm sure it contributes to warding off RPers from wanting to PvP.


There are work-arounds defensive sets use these days, but you're also right that post-i12 PvP have reduced the number of power sets you can use to excel in PvP. Also, turning the game into two entirely different words mechanically, I agree with you there.

Actually, no. My emphasis was on actual broadly appealed RPvP events, not PvP challenges in the D.

This is a little unclear. Can you re-iterate/rephrase this please?

I'm a big stickler on using the Test Server standard arena rules: No Heal Decay, No Travel Suppression, Small inspirations only, Diminishing Returns on, temp powers usually off, but it depends on the situation... RP wise I would probabley be inclined to keep that on, especially when you have a lot of people using Ninja run or secondary mutation concept-wise. PvP wise, these are the agreed on standard, otherwise everyone would just bring Thermals and Dark/Colds to the match.

Inspirations are controversial. They're often seen as "cheats", or things people with weak builds use. Test PvPers insist on it being on (myself included) because inspiration management is a huge part of PvP skill... but a lot of the tru warr1rz crowd and RPvPers want it off. From a purely mechanical standpoint, again, if there are no inspirations, it'll just be everyone bringing Thermals and Dark/Colds, and it'll end up being one Faceroller vs. another. I've always RP'd inspirations as -actual- inspirations, and/or gear or other temporary enhancements, like what they're meant to be in the canon. On Apophasis my main, I RP them as performance-enhancing drugs which tune his brain to give him a temporarily link with the Ether.