ohhhhhh, good grief! Not the "Offender" debate again! lol
errr, in a nutcase, generally someone trying to squeeze as much offense out of a defender as much as possible, in the meantime abandoning the strength of the primary to an extent....
These days you can have an Offender, hero side. Its called a Corruptor.... you'll wanna roll one if you want to be a true offensive version of a defender....
Yes I know about corruptors. I have 3 of them level 50. Sorry wasnt tryin to start a debate again. Wasnt aware this was an issue in the Defender community. My bad.
Just curious is all.
a couple issues ago the Defender inherent Negligence was reworked into Vigilance. In addition to the endurance discount when team-mates are loosing health, Defenders now get a 30% base damage boost when solo, a 20% damage boost when duo'd, and a 10% damage boost when tripled. With a team of 4 players or more, Defenders receive no damage bonus.
The change now actually does place the Defender ranged damage output at medium when compared to the Blaster's ranged damage rating of high. The damage boost now makes soloing Defenders a far less painful experience.
* * *
The term offender has been in use for far longer than the Inherent power change. Offender, for the most part, was used to refer to a player who sacrificed powers for team-mates in favor of powers for themselves. For example:
Now, I'm not going to make any calls on whether or not playing a Defender as a damage class is a good idea. There's a reason the attacks are a secondary set.
I would recommend that if you want to attempt to play a Defender for damage, you go with Cold Dom / Ice Blastfor the strong debuffs, opportunities to rack up on recharge buffs, and hard-controls.
I would also recommend that you keep a dual-build handy with the team-oriented powers ready.
The term offender has been in use for far longer than the Inherent power change. Offender, for the most part, was used to refer to a player who sacrificed powers for team-mates in favor of powers for themselves. For example:
- An Empath without Heal Other, Absorb Pain, Clear Mind, Fortitude, or Adrenalin Boost.
- A sonic without Sonic Barrier, Sonic Haven, Disruption Field, or Clarity
- A Cold Dom without Ice Shield, Glacial Shield, or Frostwork
Now, I'm not going to make any calls on whether or not playing a Defender as a damage class is a good idea. There's a reason the attacks are a secondary set.
I would recommend that if you want to attempt to play a Defender for damage, you go with Cold Dom / Ice Blastfor the strong debuffs, opportunities to rack up on recharge buffs, and hard-controls.
I would also recommend that you keep a dual-build handy with the team-oriented powers ready.
Yeah I have duel builds on my corruptors. 1 solo build and 1 team build. If I have that roll on a team then the team comes first. Always played my healers that way.
Like I said though just curious about it.
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Shame on you Phire =( Ok so maybe I took a few months off from the forums here and there. When did "Offender" become a derogatory term? I've been a forum lurker longer than poster and I've played on and off since i2. "Offender" has always ment a Defender maximized for offense..... period. Never have I heard of an Offender being refered to one who gimps thier own primary. Old school Offenders were Kin/Psi, Kin/Rad, Rad/Psi, Rad/Rad, and Storm/Ice. When the newer sets came along Kin/Archery and the biggest one of all Rad/Sonic. You Phire, my friend are a Offender (Cold/Ice) and a wonderful example of one if I do say so myself.|
Originally Posted by PHlRE
ohhhhhh, good grief! Not the "Offender" debate again! lol
errr, in a nutcase, generally someone trying to squeeze as much offense out of a defender as much as possible, in the meantime abandoning the strength of the primary to an extent.... These days you can have an Offender, hero side. Its called a Corruptor.... you'll wanna roll one if you want to be a true offensive version of a defender.... |
....you too Je_saist?
..........I think I died a little inside today
.................................and Max called it a Healer
I guess the stories were true the Defender forums eat thier own =(
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I see you read the scrapper forums as well.|
Originally Posted by Tatum
Shame on you Phire =( Ok so maybe I took a few months off from the forums here and there. When did "Offender" become a derogatory term? I've been a forum lurker longer than poster and I've played on and off since i2. "Offender" has always ment a Defender maximized for offense..... period. Never have I heard of an Offender being refered to one who gimps thier own primary. Old school Offenders were Kin/Psi, Kin/Rad, Rad/Psi, Rad/Rad, and Storm/Ice. When the newer sets came along Kin/Archery and the biggest one of all Rad/Sonic. You Phire, my friend are a Offender (Cold/Ice) and a wonderful example of one if I do say so myself.
....you too Je_saist? ..........I think I died a little inside today .................................and Max called it a Healer I guess the stories were true the Defender forums eat thier own =( |
Offender is just another term that people want to make themselves think they are something they are not. Isn't it common place for defenders to attack in addition to using their defender primirary?
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It *ought* to be.....|
Originally Posted by Transhade
Isn't it common place for defenders to attack in addition to using their defender primirary?
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Honestly, in my opinion 'offender' is more of a mindset than anything else. Certainly some defender builds work out better for offense than others, but every single one can be played to maximize the defender's personal damage contribution - and quite often without diminishing their team utility in the slightest. 'Offender' is most definitely *not* a derogatory term for someone who skips team-focused powers from their primary (we have entirely different derogatory terms for *that*) - while some extreme solo-only offenders may do that (and within that context there's nothing wrong with it), it's hardly the exemplar of the type.
I personally play every defender like an offender, whether I've got the 'right' primary/secondary sets for it. Blasts are good.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
To me, an Offender just means a Defender who takes and slots their attacks. If you've got a reasonably continuous attack chain with some AoE, and its all 3 slotted for damage, and you use it, you're an Offender.
Sonic Blast is the top damage blast set due to the stacking -Res debuffs.
Rad, Traps, Storm and Dark make good solo Offender sets, but any primary can be a good offender build.
Its also a combination of build and playstyle.
For example, I remember playing with an awesome Empath/Energy Blast offender who'd keep us buffed, heal when necessary (eg people getting below 50%) but used her blasts to cause absolute chaos in the enemy ranks, both mitigating and causing plenty of damage. If she aggro'd it, she'd keep it bouncing around until it was dead. 
The exact same build could have been played differently by prioritising heals if anyone fell below 90%, and hanging back and attacking less to avoid aggro.
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Originally Posted by Transhade
I see you read the scrapper forums as well.
Offender is just another term that people want to make themselves think they are something they are not. Isn't it common place for defenders to attack in addition to using their defender primirary? |
Honestly the 1st time I ever heard the term "Offender" it was in a very good light and it was a amazing player with a Kin/Rad. Yes! All Defenders need to take and slot thier attacks. To not do so is gimping yourself and your team.
...maybe I should jump ship
..........Transhade do you think the Scrapper community would accept my Trap/AR defender? I'm almost always in melee and I have L33T heals from my Triage Beacon.
I prefer Kinetics for my Defenders. You can be useful in a group by taking Speed Boost. Every other power is for your benefit, or yours and the group's when teaming. Fulcrum Shifting yourself against 10 enemies then dropping some AoE goodness can make you feel like a capable blaster, almost. With the right power choices and IO setup, you can soft-cap enough defenses to not worry about most enemies attacking you back.
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+1. The short version of the term Offender. It's a term that's used in response to "healers" that vastly focuses on their primary at the expense of their secondary. It's about being more of a balanced defender than anything really. Also see the Repeat Offenders network of SGs that have even specialized SGs(Kins only, Stomies only, etc...).
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
To me, an Offender just means a Defender who takes and slots their attacks.
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To me, a Defender just means a Defender who takes and slots their attacks. If you've got a reasonably continuous attack chain with some AoE, and its all 3 slotted for damage, and you use it, you're a Defender.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
To me, an Offender just means a Defender who takes and slots their attacks. If you've got a reasonably continuous attack chain with some AoE, and its all 3 slotted for damage, and you use it, you're an Offender.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Unlike the first couple of replies, who define what I'd refer to as either solo Defenders or Blastfender (depending on the context and situation, though I use the latter as more derogatory), I'm in more general agreement with the sentiment that Offenders are simply ones who maximize offensive output without neglecting their team support. Sure, they may skip some supportive powers, like leadership, more situational support powers (like rezzes), and so on, but a good Offender will at the very least have their core powers and usually good but not basic ones too.
There's a lot of good Offending sets. Kin, Rad, Cold, Dark, Traps, and Storm seem to be the big one, though any could work. Sonic, Archery, and Cold are big secondaries, but nobody says you can't kick butt with other sets.
I have a Rad/Sonic/Dark who I play like an Offender. Between her dropping debuffs everywhere, firing off EM Pulse every time it's up just about, popping a heal on the occasions it's needed, and corpse-nuking and then rezzing fallen allies (I'll admit I sometimes "accidentally" let someone drop just to one-shot the current/next spawn), the team is plenty safe and steam rolling ahead with her around. It especially helps that I'm not shy of using Aim > Soul Drain > Dreadful Wail of clear out a spawn myself, or at least most of it (sometimes the bosses survive, but my teammates usually make quick work of them). The build also solos pretty well. Could solo better if I had skipped several team-oriented powers, but it's by no means slow. Not as fast as a Scrapper for sure, but it moves at a decent pace and, with over 50% to-hit debuff in Radiation Infection and running Oppressive Gloom, it's very safe.
This:
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And posts echoing this:|
It *ought* to be..... Honestly, in my opinion 'offender' is more of a mindset than anything else. Certainly some defender builds work out better for offense than others, but every single one can be played to maximize the defender's personal damage contribution - and quite often without diminishing their team utility in the slightest. 'Offender' is most definitely *not* a derogatory term for someone who skips team-focused powers from their primary (we have entirely different derogatory terms for *that*) - while some extreme solo-only offenders may do that (and within that context there's nothing wrong with it), it's hardly the exemplar of the type. I personally play every defender like an offender, whether I've got the 'right' primary/secondary sets for it. Blasts are good. |
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To me, an Offender just means a Defender who takes and slots their attacks. If you've got a reasonably continuous attack chain with some AoE, and its all 3 slotted for damage, and you use it, you're an Offender. Sonic Blast is the top damage blast set due to the stacking -Res debuffs. Rad, Traps, Storm and Dark make good solo Offender sets, but any primary can be a good offender build. Its also a combination of build and playstyle. For example, I remember playing with an awesome Empath/Energy Blast offender who'd keep us buffed, heal when necessary (eg people getting below 50%) but used her blasts to cause absolute chaos in the enemy ranks, both mitigating and causing plenty of damage. If she aggro'd it, she'd keep it bouncing around until it was dead. The exact same build could have been played differently by prioritising heals if anyone fell below 90%, and hanging back and attacking less to avoid aggro. |
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The term offender has been in use for far longer than the Inherent power change. Offender, for the most part, was used to refer to a player who sacrificed powers for team-mates in favor of powers for themselves. For example: * An Empath without Heal Other, Absorb Pain, Clear Mind, Fortitude, or Adrenalin Boost. * A sonic without Sonic Barrier, Sonic Haven, Disruption Field, or Clarity * A Cold Dom without Ice Shield, Glacial Shield, or Frostwork Players would use the power choices freed up by not taking team-mate oriented powers in order to take powers that buffed themselves, such as the leadership pool, the fighting pool; or for powers that had good IO slotting capabilities, such as the concealment pool. |
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
To me, an Offender just means a Defender who takes and slots their attacks. If you've got a reasonably continuous attack chain with some AoE, and its all 3 slotted for damage, and you use it, you're an Offender.
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Originally Posted by Tatum
Honestly the 1st time I ever heard the term "Offender" it was in a very good light and it was a amazing player with a Kin/Rad. Yes! All Defenders need to take and slot thier attacks. To not do so is gimping yourself and your team.
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Originally Posted by je_saist
a couple issues ago the Defender inherent Negligence was reworked into Vigilance. In addition to the endurance discount when team-mates are loosing health, Defenders now get a 30% base damage boost when solo, a 20% damage boost when duo'd, and a 10% damage boost when tripled. With a team of 4 players or more, Defenders receive no damage bonus.
The change now actually does place the Defender ranged damage output at medium when compared to the Blaster's ranged damage rating of high. The damage boost now makes soloing Defenders a far less painful experience. * * * The term offender has been in use for far longer than the Inherent power change. Offender, for the most part, was used to refer to a player who sacrificed powers for team-mates in favor of powers for themselves. For example:
Now, I'm not going to make any calls on whether or not playing a Defender as a damage class is a good idea. There's a reason the attacks are a secondary set. I would recommend that if you want to attempt to play a Defender for damage, you go with Cold Dom / Ice Blastfor the strong debuffs, opportunities to rack up on recharge buffs, and hard-controls. I would also recommend that you keep a dual-build handy with the team-oriented powers ready. |
I've been using this term for a couple years now, but apparently my definition is a bit different than most of yours. What you define as a 'offender', to me, is just a good defender.
To me, an offender is a defender who neglects to use/slot/pick their primary powers and allows their allies to die because they like to pretend that they're a blaster.
Example: I had a bad experience on a brute with an offender once. Was only me, her (a fire/pain dom corrupter), and a stalker on the team. I was tanking, and repeatedly dying (was playing at around level 20-30). I soon realized that she wasn't healing--she had them, just didn't use them--she was happily blasting away while I tried to tank and keep the aggro off of her. After about the 4th death and repeated asks for her to keep up with the heals, I quit.
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thanx for the inherent update - wasnt aware of that since i'd been gone for 7 months...|
Originally Posted by je_saist
a couple issues ago the Defender inherent Negligence was reworked into Vigilance. In addition to the endurance discount when team-mates are loosing health, Defenders now get a 30% base damage boost when solo, a 20% damage boost when duo'd, and a 10% damage boost when tripled. With a team of 4 players or more, Defenders receive no damage bonus.
The change now actually does place the Defender ranged damage output at medium when compared to the Blaster's ranged damage rating of high. The damage boost now makes soloing Defenders a far less painful experience. * * * The term offender has been in use for far longer than the Inherent power change. Offender, for the most part, was used to refer to a player who sacrificed powers for team-mates in favor of powers for themselves. For example:
Now, I'm not going to make any calls on whether or not playing a Defender as a damage class is a good idea. There's a reason the attacks are a secondary set. I would recommend that if you want to attempt to play a Defender for damage, you go with Cold Dom / Ice Blastfor the strong debuffs, opportunities to rack up on recharge buffs, and hard-controls. I would also recommend that you keep a dual-build handy with the team-oriented powers ready. |
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Originally Posted by maxtsorm
Yeah I have duel builds on my corruptors. 1 solo build and 1 team build. If I have that roll on a team then the team comes first. Always played my healers that way.
Like I said though just curious about it. |
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Originally Posted by Tatum
Shame on you Phire =( Ok so maybe I took a few months off from the forums here and there. When did "Offender" become a derogatory term? I've been a forum lurker longer than poster and I've played on and off since i2. "Offender" has always ment a Defender maximized for offense..... period. Never have I heard of an Offender being refered to one who gimps thier own primary. Old school Offenders were Kin/Psi, Kin/Rad, Rad/Psi, Rad/Rad, and Storm/Ice. When the newer sets came along Kin/Archery and the biggest one of all Rad/Sonic. You Phire, my friend are a Offender (Cold/Ice) and a wonderful example of one if I do say so myself.
I guess the stories were true the Defender forums eat thier own =( |
ok ok, lets not get too bi-polared and extremist in our views lol. Obviously you have your interpretation and i have mine. The silly thing, we all had argued about WHO's definition is right lol....
D3's became a noticeable "offender" (ive got a pair too!) because of their solo ability w/ the strongest toggle debuffer DN, stack that w/ Tar Patch and Soul Drain. Others started to try to squeeze more offense out of the defenders and possibly dropping their support structure. There were a few posters so radical that they literally left their primary empty, in attempts to compensate their performances vs Blasters. Come on, what self-respecting defender is gonna complain about a blaster out-offensing you? Yet, the select few radicals kind of gave "Offenders" a bad rap cuz they seemed to be the loudest, in the most obnoxious ways.
IMO, a defender (and any other player playing an AT) will still yearn and push their offense through their support, and possibly maximize it w/o sacrificing key support powers. This is still a DEFENDER for pete's sake, imo. Nothing wrong in making the most out of your offensive powers.
IMO, a defender investing heavier in their "Secondary" set or even sacrificing key Primary powers in order to be more offensively off-balanced, is an OFFENDER.
Now this isnt all bad, either. It DOES get bad when a bad "OFFENDER" seeks acceptance and pushes his build in a Defender forum, when the general core of players who play defenders, play defenders as a support character, in principle.....
I dont consider myself as an "Offender". Maybe the "Offenders" do in their viewpoint - im fine with that. And it just may show the difference of our definitions.
This weekend, i finally flipped Aim into Frostwork - still became a real pain in the *** respec.
As in power choices in Primary & Secondary -
ALL primary powers selected
Ice Bolt, Ice Blast, Ice Storm, & Blizzard are the only Secondary powers.
Just saying that im not really that offensively invested thru Secondary
In the end, its up to the player to dictate how their character is gonna be worked out. Everyone has ownership over their different playing style and setup. Just dont expect approval from another because they have their own ideals
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lmao - dood, just what is happening is making me laugh so hard. I know it was all unintentional. The funny thing is, for the short time i got back in (like a week) this is the most defender forum activity ive seen lol. I SO swear that the Defender forum was dead. The Offender topic just attracted and sucked everyone back into interest. The sad thing is, the some threads in the Archetypes & Powers are lamenting about the LACK of Defender AT's, and how much they are in demand these days lol....|
Originally Posted by maxtsorm
Yeah I have duel builds on my corruptors. 1 solo build and 1 team build. If I have that roll on a team then the team comes first. Always played my healers that way.
Like I said though just curious about it. |
Errrr, whether you consider yourself as a Defender or an Offender, PLAY your AT. You in demand!
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=239967&page=4
I just wanted to say Dear Lord Baby Jesus Im sorry for the drama and stiring the pot....I in no way meant to cause this drama fest.
I shall now go into the corner and weep uncontrolably for the damage that I have caused.
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Hahaha Phire, ya I was just poke'n fun more than anything else. I've just returned to CoX myself from a year off. Now in all honesty its apparnt everyone here is on the same page as whats to be expected from a Defender reguardless. We Buff, Debuff, and we are the hands down best at it. Our power's base numbers are the strongest and we get access to our best powers the quickest. We also Blast which is like "Icing on the cake.....Served on top of pie". |
Originally Posted by PHlRE
lmao - dood, just what is happening is making me laugh so hard. I know it was all unintentional. The funny thing is, for the short time i got back in (like a week) this is the most defender forum activity ive seen lol. I SO swear that the Defender forum was dead. The Offender topic just attracted and sucked everyone back into interest. The sad thing is, the some threads in the Archetypes & Powers are lamenting about the LACK of Defender AT's, and how much they are in demand these days lol....
Errrr, whether you consider yourself as a Defender or an Offender, PLAY your AT. You in demand! http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...=239967&page=4 |
I'm a long standing Defender/Tank player and I dabble a bit with Corruptors. Since a week or so before i18 went live I ran a Trap/Dark from 1-40. Now with Going Rogue I took a Trap/AR from 1-50 and have been hitting SF's daily with it. In my travels I have seen a slight lack of new Defenders but I know I'm doing my job. I've gotten atleast 3 players (new to defenders) to roll up Trap/ characters after seeing my Trap/AR "Messershmitt" in action. So lets keep bringing them into the fold. Alot of people I've heard say lately they want support toons that can solo. Well with the recent Inherent buff thier are several very viable defender combos that meet this requirement.
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Defender and offender are synonymous, or at least they should be. Your definition of offender is way, way off. That's just a sucky player.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I've been using this term for a couple years now, but apparently my definition is a bit different than most of yours. What you define as a 'offender', to me, is just a good defender.
To me, an offender is a defender who neglects to use/slot/pick their primary powers and allows their allies to die because they like to pretend that they're a blaster. Example: I had a bad experience on a brute with an offender once. Was only me, her (a fire/pain dom corrupter), and a stalker on the team. I was tanking, and repeatedly dying (was playing at around level 20-30). I soon realized that she wasn't healing--she had them, just didn't use them--she was happily blasting away while I tried to tank and keep the aggro off of her. After about the 4th death and repeated asks for her to keep up with the heals, I quit. |
Talen_Lee: Taking absorb pain is like branding 'H' on your forehead. Which stands for 'Failure'
Scarf_Girl: ever since I six slotted my Rp with cyber/emo Hami-O enhancements they haven't been able to touch me
Like Defender, Offender is a bit of a misnomer. COH's Defenders' defense and offense are both sub-par. What they really excel in is support. They can generate enough support to be competent at both offense and defense on their own and, with additional members in their group, make the group significantly better defensively and/or offensively than it would be without the Defender. Stack multiple Defenders and you can get some pretty amazing results.
Of course, they couldn't call them Supporters without generating unfortunate links to athletic products. Defenders it is!
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I can't imagine any Scrapper worth their salt turn away a defender. Heals, Buffs, Debuffs and blasting is all good.
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Originally Posted by Tatum
Honestly the 1st time I ever heard the term "Offender" it was in a very good light and it was a amazing player with a Kin/Rad. Yes! All Defenders need to take and slot thier attacks. To not do so is gimping yourself and your team.
...maybe I should jump ship ..........Transhade do you think the Scrapper community would accept my Trap/AR defender? I'm almost always in melee and I have L33T heals from my Triage Beacon. |
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I would agree with you, but sucky players tend to stand out on support characters (such as defenders). Thats why I call them offenders, because they not only use offensive powers in situations where defensive powers would be better, but because by doing so, they offend their teammates.
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Originally Posted by _Malk_
Defender and offender are synonymous, or at least they should be. Your definition of offender is way, way off. That's just a sucky player.
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That's not the way the term 'offender' has been used here in the past, though. 'Offenders' were just very aggressive defenders, not negligent ones.
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
I would agree with you, but sucky players tend to stand out on support characters (such as defenders). Thats why I call them offenders, because they not only use offensive powers in situations where defensive powers would be better, but because by doing so, they offend their teammates.
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Talen_Lee: Taking absorb pain is like branding 'H' on your forehead. Which stands for 'Failure'
Scarf_Girl: ever since I six slotted my Rp with cyber/emo Hami-O enhancements they haven't been able to touch me
OK,
So I admit I dont know much about Defenders. Never got one high enough simply because they solo SOOO slow (ok thats just my experience).
Now today I hear the term Offender. Ive been tryin to get an idea of what a Offender is and what builds make good Offenders etc etc.
Can you guys/gals help clue me in on this?
Thanks