_Deth_
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Posts
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Quote:What I said was that later on it would not be a bad idea. I didn't post a build. And, if I had, the build wouldn't be that expensive.Originally Posted by Carnifax
I am a bit puzzled as to how in one post you can say "I didn't mention an expensive IO build at all" and in your initial post and here you bring up IOing to give yourself soft-capped defenses. To me the two statements don't gel, but like I said I'm rubbish at Set IO builds for the most part.
It'll be effective, probably far more effective than my Fault reliant SOer since you won't be wasting DPS on Fault and you won't be stunning things & missing out on their Fury building attacks. But it will be fairly expensive to achieve won't it?
As far as how expensive, it depends on how you go about it. By ticket farming, you make a lot of money, and then roll recipes. If you fill out your build off of the rolls, and save the money to finish it off, it really isn't that expensive. If you are patient and bid lower, you can get recipes and IOs a lot cheaper than the "gotta have it now" price.
It gets expensive when you throw in purples (which I very rarely put in any build I make), or throw in very rare recipes(which I rarely put in as they are hard to get).
My DA tank, whose build is very similar to my SM/WP build, cost well under a billion. That is taking into account reslotting, and pricey build mistakes. A billion may sound like a lot, but if you concentrate on one toon, that isn't that bad. If you don't like farming it will take a bit longer, but still shouldnt be that bad. -
Quote:I agree completely. I took a long break from the game, came back and started playing my elec/elec again. Ran into the tv farm to stretch my legs, and got hammered cus i forgot to play him like an elec/elec.Originally Posted by JuliusSeizure
Do you not use Lightning Field on your build? The difference is 2' in radius and it ticks every 2 seconds while applying a taunt.
My thought on leading with Power Sink is that that's how the set needs to be played. Endurance drain is an integral part of ELA's protection. If you aren't leading with Power Sink and letting Lightning Field whittle away the endurance of a spawn, you're missing out on a significant portion of survivability.
Lightning Field and Power Sink both socketed for endurance modification is a must.
*sigh* I have been trying to convince people on the Tanker forum that Power Sink isn't just a end recovery tool. But, to be fair, it took me a little while to realize it myself.Quote:Originally Posted by New Dawn
Powersinking being one of the first things you do as an elec/elec as you enter a group could be considered one of the most obvious and most sensible things to do.
Originally, LF could drain all the mobs on its own. And it built fury!Quote:Originally Posted by Tonality
I don't run lightning field with endmod anymore. It just isn't effective enough at draining high-level mobs. Rather Lightning Field is a significant source of AoE damage over time. You would be surprised how much damage that can do.
Scirocco's Dervish Acc/Dam/End and Dam/End
Multistrike Acc/Dam/End and Dam/End
That gives me moderate accuracy and hits the ED cap for damage and end redux.
I find on defensive builds that I don't have the slots leftover for end mod.
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Quote:I will give you that health is a nice power. Energize has regen in it as well, so you aren't completely dead in the water as far as regen goes.Originally Posted by Starsman
Here is the thing with Fitness, even if i need no stamina, the regeneration you get from 3 slotted Health makes a significant difference for a set with high resistances because your damage intake is low, meaning your regen means much more (its healing less damage.) It is so subtle you may not notice but it makes a big difference.
Then there is swift or hurdle. If i have no swift or hurdle with combat jump, I feel I am crawling from one spawn to the next or while manouvering in combat. This lack of movibility can slowly add up to a huge xp per hour hit. Again, subtle thing that adds up a LOT.
Once you take those two (and I'd never skip them) why not take stamina? It also is very steady.
Besides, I have managed to make elec builds that still are so heavily offensive they suck dry their endurance even with stamina 3 slotted, power sink 3 slotted for recharge and energize 3 slotted for recharge/heal. Its usually because of spamming AoE but as a tank and in I16, you will find yourself doing that a lot!
LR is swift with a boost to recharge. So if you don't skip LR, you wont miss swift/hasten.
I am not talking about making builds and looking at numbers, I am talking about actual play testing. Granted it was on a brute as opposed to a tank. A brute spamming a mostly AoE attack chain. Stam is completely unneeded. Power Sink is not just an end recovery tool, slotted for end draining does 2 jobs, it feeds you end, and a lot of it, and it drains the mobs end, decreasing their potential damage output a fair amount. With energize, which has a pretty fast recharge w/hasten in the build, your end use is not particularly bad, and you get it refilled regularly. Not a boost to recovery every so often, but a full end bar every 17-20 seconds or so.
If you go the PP route on a tank, stam is really a waste. Health is definitely worth getting as stacked with energize and PP it gives a very respectable amount of regen. I would still get LR for the boost in recharge. But, I would never, and I mean never skip Power Sink. As an end recovery tool it is hard to beat, as mitigation tool it is excellent as well.
Just my opinion on the matter. Different strokes for different folks. Only reason I am mentioning it at all is that Power Sink keeps being dismissed as solely an end recovery tool. I did the same thing when ElA was new, respec'd and found out that it helped out in survivability a lot. -
Again, just a difference of opinion.
Tankers are defensive in nature, I see the samurai as offensive in nature. -
Quote:The dedication of the samurai changed over time, and obviously some were more dedicated than others. There was ritual suicide for a reason. And there was a custom of samurai performing ritual suicide when their masters died. This custom was eventually outlawed. If that isn't dedication........Originally Posted by Starsman
I know bushido comes from the samurai, it means "the way of the warrior".
Also, the samurai was not that dedicated, not even in fiction where they portray him so proper and loyal. Samirai betraying their superiors was not any more rare than any other type of warrior. Even fiction make a lot of buz on ronin and even these ronin have their "bushido" even if they betrayed or abandoned their masters.
In the battlefiled, the samirai was just as practical as any other soldier, with the only exception of late adoption of fire-arms, yet they also used them. They started using Canons in the 16th century.
But I'm derailing because still fiction notes things you wrote:
First, off course, is the correction that Samurai were no kamikaze or mad bommers, they would fight to the end due to their honor and their goal to protect some one but they also were very aware that their fall would also be the fall of those he protects and therefore he would do all he could to stay alive and win the fight. How would that not fit a tank?
Brutes were designed with a semi-tank mentality and are played like that often although not always. They also fit perfectly the samurai/bushido.
Scrappers are much more selfish and care to just eliminate their target. The only difference they have from stalkers is they are more heads-on, something some ninja did (and stalkers also do here.)
Just not sure why would brutes love a team mini-buildup that didn't affect themselves...
Never said samurai were kamikaze or mad bombers, altho there were a lot of Zero pilots in WW2 that may disagree with you.
Of course they did all they could to win the fight. If the difference came between losing and living, or winning and dieing, guess which way they were supposed to go.
But really, what it comes down to is, I just don't agree with the name Bushido, or more accurately don't think it is as obvious as you do.
oh, and as for the comment about brutes loving that buff idea, I thought I was laying the sarcasm on pretty thick. Guess I was wrong. -
Quote:Sounds about right.Originally Posted by Dersk
That trend migrated to scrappers circa i5/i6. We just debate taunt and mid's jibberish.
Rawr. -
Quote:That is half the reason I love my DA tank. The notes of disbelief when I can jump into stuff that "Dark can't handle" and not only live, but barely notice the damage is just awesome.Originally Posted by KomradeKommunism
QFT.
I get my kicks on people admiring Tanks that are considered 'weak' by the uninformed, and upending things like "Looking for Stone Tank for [insert ream here]" It's not even just me either, I love it when people demonstrate competence with Tank builds other than Stone/ INV/ or WP/
You are forgetting one thing, the end drain of Power Sink is amazing. Mobs with no end can't hurt you as bad as mobs with full blue bars.Quote:Originally Posted by Coldmed
not only does physical perefction help tanks endurance but makes tihngs like powersink worthless later on
not only you be agble to skip it but you can have the exta end recov from pp and you have to take cp or f.a. first so pickng up cp AND pp..you could respec out of powersink later and never miss it.
from a end redcovery point of view anyways...i know some will use it as their taunt cause they wont actually pick taunt up
Also, with Energize and Power Sink, you really don't need PP for the end. Throw in a couple slots for regen. Stam is completely unnecessary on Elec Armor. With Energize and PP, you could even make a case for skipping health. With LR you can skip the whole fitness set and not notice it.
I am going from my experience with my 50 Elec/Elec brute. no stam, and with energize, I never missed it.
to get tough, you can just skip 2 powers as you don't need fitness. Really, you don't.Quote:Originally Posted by Starsman
QR
Skippable? Depends on your goals.- Lightning Reflexes
- Power Sink
- Power Surge
Lightning Reflexes recharge is nice, and it adds on Energize's uptime, but you don't NEED it.
Power Sink is also darn nice, but you don't need it to survive.
That being told in my tests I have taken all powers but Power Surge, taken Tough and Combat Jump and cut back a bit on the secondary.
One thing to keep in mind wile building a character is that you can take all your primary, and all your secondary plus two pool powers by level 40 (intentional design at launch to have all powers and a travel power.)
To accomodate swift/health/stamina you just need to skip on 3 powers. If you want tough (and I recomend it) you need to skip on 5 powers.
My elec builds have so far skipped travel powers and gone the Hurdle/Combat Jump route (its as fast as flying and that is good enough for me.) Then skip power surge, thats 2 skiped powers, then skip on taunt for the solo builds, thats 3. And for rare situations there are more attacks than you need on all secondaries, you should be able to easily skip 2 attacks.
And this is all to have a solid build by 40 and to make full room for an epic by 50. If you care not for the epic you can take it all. -
Quote:I don't like Tremor, I am entitled to not like Tremor.Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Let me turn that around for you. You get your tier 9 power at tier 7, so you don't have to wait as long for your best powers. If there's a rule that the tier 9 must be the best power in the set, then breaking that rule makes the set better. The reason I brought up SS was that it has one extremely skippable power - moving that power to the tier 9 slot would mean that SS characters have access to all their good powers earlier, making them stronger overall. So if Tremor is the worst power in the set, then moving it to tier 9 makes SM stronger.
But I don't think Tremor is the worst power in the set, nor is it nearly as bad as you make it out to be. For one thing, it offers better mitigation than every other PBAoE besides Foot Stomp. For another, it's in a set that also has Fault, which makes it the second wide-area KD power in the set. For yet another, its wide radius means that it will be hitting more targets and doing better average damage than most other AoEs. And in a set that also has a brutal ST chain including the highest DPA ST melee attack in the game at tier 7, and another area control power that's already so powerful it basically relegates your entire secondary to backup status at tier 5, that's not bad at all.
But really, you just want Tremor buffed - probably to Foot Stomp levels - and you're looking for a justification. You may continue to advance whatever arguments you like, but a simple look at the design and performance of the set is enough to assure me that this will never happen.
You are looking at this from a purely number crunching standpoint.
I am not looking for a buff in Tremor. No, what I am looking for is for the last power I get in my primary not be a major letdown.
Seriously, how hard is that to understand?
Brutes are designed as a melee damage class. I want melee damage. More control and lower damage out of my tier 9 is a major buzzkill.
Yes, I know everyone is SOOOO in love the with mitigation aspects of SM. I like the damage myself. Thats why i picked it, to hit things really hard. Knocking things on their tails over and over again is funny and entertaining, and yeah, does serve as nice way to slow incoming damage, but it doesn't get em dead any quicker.
And seriously, why would buffing Tremor to FS levels, and I mean real FS levels, not the Rage buffed FS levels, be that big of a deal? FS has a faster activation, does more damage with the same radius so it is hitting the same number of targets as Tremor does, and has a slightly longer recharge, and has the same secondary effect. FS is a true tier 9. Tremor isn't. You compare it to the PBAoEs in other sets, but they are not the sets Tier 9 power. Patron Pools really are not comparable, as they are meant to fill holes the AT has, not to be set defining.
I believe that Whirling hands deserves a buff in damage considering it's place in the power order as well. That or a boost to the chance to stun in it.
This is the whole heart of this issue. Saying that the set as a whole is balanced means squat when you get decent powers up front and crap at the end. It should be a progression. When a power becomes available it should be superior in its design to the powers that come earlier. Saying the set is stronger because the TANKER tier 9 was moved to 7 on brutes is a cop out. I see it as being weaker because you have nothing left to look forward to and 2 more power picks as you level. If I was leveling an SM brute as my first toon, and was doing it solely by running content, when I picked tremor, I would have been pissed, especially if I had also picked fault. "Yay, I have a PBAoE version of a power I already had. Oh wait, it does a little bit of damage, but nothing really to write home about. Man, look at that power that guy with Super Strength got, it's looks like the same power as mine, but man, look at that damage." Seriously. I would have been really, really pissed. And that is my point.
SS translated perfectly when it was moved from Tank to brute, SM did not. Personally, and I really don't care if anyone agrees with me or not, I am entitled to my opinion, I believe they should have adjusted the powers as well as adjusting the order, or they should have just left the order alone.
I could really care less if Tremor gets buffed or not, as far as my toon is concerned. I built it with ST damage in mind, I added some AoE damage for utility purposes(so I can farm with him til I decide if I am gonna make my upcoming claws brute my main =D). -
Quote:Again, not arguing that it is not useful, not saying it is a trash power, I was just stating that people seem to put it up on a pedestal. Whenever anyone suggests dropping it, and I have noticed this on both this thread and a DA/SM thread, people act like you can't live without it and that it would be blasphemy not to take it.Originally Posted by Pyromantic
I'm having a hard time thinking of another AoE mitigation power in a melee set (heck, throw in a lot of control sets too) that is as good as Fault. The combination of duration:recharge ratio, knockdown, and range make it tremendously effective. While I've little doubt an IO'd build can mow through regular content without it, I have equally little doubt an IO'd build is capable of some truly amazing things with it.
My SM/WP doesn't have fault, and to be honest, I don't miss it. I made that toon for one purpose, to beat the hell out of things. If it doesn't make the red bar go in a downwards direction, it doesn't belong in my attack chain. Now, currently my toon is sitting about halfway IO'd, when it was full SO'd, I liked fault, and with tremor it was very nice. Now that I am well over the 25% def mark, I can live without it. The closer to softcap I get, the less I miss it. I traded it for Dark Oblit, which mitigates by making them less likely to hit me, and makes the red bar go down. A good upgrade in my eyes.
Seriously, my point is, there are different ways to go about things, when someone suggests something off the norm, why does everyone have to come out and act like they are an idiot. If it is something that kills the effectiveness of the toon, I could understand it. -
Quote:Sorry, but I disagree with this. Tankers, if played correctly, are not really what you would call a samurai. The code of bushido came from the samurai. The samurai followed orders to the letter(or were supposed to anyway), and they "protected" their masters by throwing themselves headlong into all danger, with absolutely no concern of their own lives. They were to have no attachments in life, especially with regards to their own mortality. Not really one I would call the protector of the group. Now, fits perfect for scrappers and brutes.Originally Posted by Starsman
The name should be obvious for anyone here: BushidÅ
Brutes would just LOVE that.Quote:Originally Posted by Starsman
[*] I can see them have a small AoE damage buff making the team stronger but not self.
Off course, this also would go for Brutes. -
Quote:I never said you in particular called me a noob, I was just stating the general atmosphere when anyone suggests something that is against the norm. Also, I didn't suggest a build of any kind. More importantly, most of the time when I post a build, it is actually rather affordable. If I recall correctly the OP was wondering if he could live without fault and tremor as part of his attack chain. I do believe, I stated that when he was able to move into IOs, it was more than feasible to leave both of them out.Originally Posted by Carnifax
I don't think I called you a noob
. But your point does highlight a counterpoint / pet peeve of my own, the over reliance and tendency of posters to fix everything with massively expensive IO builds whenever someone asks for some advice on the boards.
Not an attack on you by any means, I think we're both just answering the questions from different standpoints. I don't tend to have the time (and too many alts) to concentrate on pure set bonus based IO builds. I tend instead to pick based on powers with SO sort of levels with a few cherry-picked IOs, which I've a chance of getting.
Yeah, my mistake, I was thinking of something else at the time, I should have double checked.Quote:Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
A point of note: Stun is very much not an AoE stun. It is a ST mag 3 stun with minimal damage.
Carry on. -
Here is a much cheaper version, still softcapped.
If ya like, you can switch out Build Up for Stam with a PS +end proc.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: War Mace
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Armor -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(3), RctvArm-ResDam:40(5), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(5)
Level 1: Bash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(15), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(17)
Level 2: Conductive Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(7), RctvArm-ResDam:40(11)
Level 4: Lightning Field -- EndRdx-I:50(A), EndMod-I:20(19), EndMod-I:50(19)
Level 6: Static Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(9), RctvArm-ResDam:40(11)
Level 8: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(17), HO:Cyto(46)
Level 12: Energize -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(13), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(13), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(46), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(46)
Level 14: Super Jump -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 18: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 20: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A), RgnTis-Regen+:30(21), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(21), Numna-Heal:50(45)
Level 22: Clobber -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(23), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(25), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg:30(25), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg:30(29)
Level 24: Taunt -- Zinger-Taunt:50(A), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg:50(43), Zinger-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(48), Zinger-Acc/Rchg:50(50), Zinger-Taunt/Rng:50(50), Zinger-Dam%:50(50)
Level 26: Power Sink -- EnManip-EndMod/Rchg:20(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(27), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(31)
Level 28: Whirling Mace -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(29), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37), Oblit-%Dam:50(40)
Level 30: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(31), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(31), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(34)
Level 32: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(33), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(33), RctvArm-ResDam:40(33)
Level 35: Shatter -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37), Oblit-%Dam:50(37)
Level 38: Crowd Control -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-%Dam:50(40), FrcFbk-Rechg%:50(40)
Level 41: Ring of Fire -- Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob:50(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx:50(42), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng:50(42), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(43), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob:50(43)
Level 44: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(45), HO:Cyto(45)
Level 47: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(48), HO:Cyto(48)
Level 49: Build Up -- HO:Membr(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
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Yeah, I shoot for S/L on most as it is just easier to hit that softcap.
It can be done with melee almost as easily, but if you are going positional, you need to worry about your defense from each position. So you will be softcapped to melee, but will still have big holes to fill with ranged and aoe. S/L is nice because, as said earlier, most attacks have an S/L component. The position the attack comes from is now null and void.
Going for complete coverage on positional defense really hurts as you are losing slots you can be putting towards other things. Just covering melee, in my opinion, just doesn't work, as if you get around mobs that don't like to get in melee range, they will pepper you with ranged attacks.
Yeah, going for S/L will occasionally bite you in the butt, but very, very rarely.
Nice thing about /Inv and /WP, you can softcap just about ALL of the damage types pretty easily. -
Quote:lol, yeah, like I said, i tossed it together in like 10 min, forgot I threw that 3% gladiator in there. Other than that, it is pretty inexpensive. ElA/WM would be a monster in farming, so I don't see that one IO being out of reach for too long tho.Originally Posted by Coldmed
current price on that glad armor 3% your using is 1.5 billion deth
i however have looked into elec armor myself and going alittle of both routes..
with the glad strikes bonus's i can actually get my a/l resist to 89.7%..leaving me only .3% away from the cap
however i spread out the defense between postional and s/l so i got 34% s/l and 37% melee defense
i wont be soft capped but all that defense and being capped in s/l resist will help him more then i can say.
my build isnt easy though but he'll be a friggin monster for sure..yeah the price is crazy and im broke for sure now..hopefully i can get a few purple drops when i go back to reg mishs in iss 16 to help the pain of being broke.
but these numbers say alot about what you "could" build given the time...yeah its easier with some tanks then others..but who wants to be that bored
The point was tho, ElA is not some second rate useless set. Just takes a bit of ingenuity to make it glorious. And I forgot, people just don't take into account the end drain in the set. You can literally keep the groups on empty the whole fight. -
Quote:Stun in EM would be the other one. So that makes 4 sets with zero damage AoE mitigation powers. The only one that is considered "must take" is fault.Originally Posted by Carnifax
If you're talking about things like Handclap & Lightning Clap isn't it because they does knockback rather than knockdown rather than because it's a zero damage AOE mitigation? It's the type of mitigation they provide rather than the fact they do zero damage. Other than those 3 I don't think there are other non-damaging AOE Mezzes in the sets, are there?
Personally I use both Fault and Tremor on my Stone/Fire. But I find both can interfere with my Fury Building if overused. So I tend to fire them off after a while rather than trying to keep things perma-fallen over & mezzed from the off. But I do have Healing Flames as a Spike Heal rather than lots of Regen so it suits him to allow his HPs to go low before starting to Control (and burn) the spawn.
Of course the end goal with both the AOE knockdowns for me is to get a pair of Forced Feedbacks into them, which is the other good advantage of them. 2 quickly recharging, wide AOE powers to PROC with. Yum.
HC and LC doing kb is a bad reason not to take them, if mitigation is such a big concern, knocking the mobs away from you is better mitigation than just knocking them down. It's not like the mobs are gonna change their minds and take off if you knock them back instead of down.
Stun disorients, which some would say is better than kd and kb. How many people actually take stun on EM. Not many. Altho, I would make a case for taking it with DA, at least until IO'd.
And seriously, this is the heart of my argument. I just don't get why people always get all bent that someone builds without taking the "must have" powers, that really aren't necessary depending on the build. As soon as I mention not taking fault, or that I hate tremor, all these people come screaming out of the woodwork that it is a bad decision, and you just "HAVE" to take those powers or you are a noob and you suck.
I am not telling anyone not to take them, I just put out an alternative, and a very viable alternative if you IO your build a specific way.
oh, and the FF proc, seriously, putting in both tremor and fault is bad, at least if you use them too close together, as that proc will suppress itself if it goes off too often.
http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Force_...or_%2BRecharge -
call me crazy, but wouldn't sumo be more fitting for a tanker..........
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Quote:People used to tell me stupid crap like that all the time on my DA. And my FA.Originally Posted by Negescape
Does it take long to climb off your high horse and talk down to people? I'd certainly hate to think I troubled you.
So, numbers. EA is a PURELY resistance based set. It takes EXTENSIVE IO slotting (even then breaking 45% on any specific is a stretch just because you're starting from 0) to even get it to stand up to the punishment most every other tank set but fire can stand up to because they all have at least some defense to build from. Having high resists (just short of 80% on a good day for EA is what I'm seeing) is great, but you're still getting hit 45% of the time and most tanks aren't just tanking one mob. Tanking 5 mobs (realistically 16) means you're getting hit at least once virtually every attack round, if not more than once, which means with no healing you're throwing in your cards early.
With standard SO slotting, which sets are "balanced around", an EA tank is simply going to be crushed in most every single pull without some major buffage.
PS. I hear hateraid goes good with vodka.
Tanked boss farms with just SOs on both of them. In fact, tanked them well enough that people checked to make sure I was staying before they decided they were going to.
As far as hitting the softcap being a stretch, it's easier than you think. Did it with room to spare on my DA, the only base they have for defense is CoD. Not really a big base.
Hell, here is a build I put together in 10 minutes. S/L softcapped. Not particularly expensive. Pretty end efficient, just don't turn on FA, hell, even with it on, PS is up so fast shouldn't be that big a problem.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Electric Armor
Secondary Power Set: War Mace
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Charged Armor -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(3), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(3), RctvArm-ResDam:40(9), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(11), GA-3defTpProc:30(11)
Level 1: Bash -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(17), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(43), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(46)
Level 2: Conductive Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), RctvArm-ResDam:40(9)
Level 4: Lightning Field -- EndRdx-I:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(15), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(17)
Level 6: Static Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(7), RctvArm-ResDam:40(15)
Level 8: Grounded -- S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(A)
Level 10: Combat Jumping -- LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(46)
Level 12: Energize -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg:50(13), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(13), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(42), RechRdx-I:50(42)
Level 14: Super Jump -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 16: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 18: Health -- Numna-Heal:50(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx:50(19), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:50(19), RgnTis-Regen+:30(40)
Level 20: Clobber -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(21), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(21), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(23), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg:30(23), P'ngS'Fest-Stun%:30(37)
Level 22: Lightning Reflexes -- Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt:50(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg:50(25), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(25), Mocking-Acc/Rchg:50(43), Mocking-Taunt/Rng:50(43), Mocking-Rchg:50(45)
Level 26: Boxing -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(27), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(34)
Level 28: Whirling Mace -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(29), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-%Dam:50(45)
Level 30: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(31), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(31), RctvArm-ResDam:40(31)
Level 32: Power Sink -- P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(33), EnManip-EndMod/Rchg:20(33), Adrenal-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:20(33)
Level 35: Shatter -- Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(36), Oblit-%Dam:50(36), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(36), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(37), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(37)
Level 38: Crowd Control -- FrcFbk-Rechg%:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(39), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(40), Oblit-%Dam:50(40)
Level 41: Focused Accuracy -- Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg:20(A), Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(42)
Level 44: Weave -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(45), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(46)
Level 47: Physical Perfection -- Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A), Numna-Heal:50(48), Mrcl-Heal:40(48), P'Shift-EndMod:50(48), P'Shift-End%:50(50)
Level 49: Maneuvers -- HO:Cyto(A), HO:Cyto(50), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(50)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
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Quote:this!Originally Posted by bill z bubba
yes, yes, it's all so black and white. I prefer surrounding myself, when i choose to team, with individuals that have higher than double digit iqs so that i don't have to babysit them.
I "protect" the team by killing enemies. Debuffing health is the best debuff after all. -
Quote:yeah, while leveling and before IOing, that is a major advantage. Once you get deeper into an IO'd build, depending on how you are building it, the advantage becomes more or a parlor trick. By the time my SM/WP is done, my defense will be softcapped, which means, they really aren't hitting me enough to even worry about disorienting or kd anyway. I still have tremor in my chain for aoe damage, the FF proc and incase of annoying def debuffers.Originally Posted by _Krom_
Isn't part of the advantage of fault + will power the disorient that applies to minions? So that if you are surrounded by a lot of minions you would buy yourself more time then just the time it takes them to get up from the KD to regen via Rttc. My thought with having both was to open with fault, kd and disorient...fire off some single target attacks and when they are back up and wobbly...hit tremor to knock them down again and then rinse and repeat. This would seem to buy a lot of regen time. When patron powers come into play, combining a fully slotted fault with a patron immob make this even easier to accomplish and keep them in rttc range. I'm still new to will power, but that is what i had envisioned and it seems to be working so far (although only lvl 33 right now).
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My SM/WP brute is about halfway IO'd. I dropped fault, kept tremor and slotted it for damage. The damage isn't great, but I also have Dark Oblit, so it evens out a bit.
If you are going to attempt to softcap defense on your SM/WP, mitigation becomes a luxury that you can live without.
Fault is great for giving yourself a second to regen back an alpha, but so is tremor. I really don't understand why so many consider fault a must have power, when the zero damage/aoe mitigation powers available in just about every other set are usually skipped.
Like I said tho, until you get softcapped with IOs(if you go that route) it is definitely nice to have fault/tremor.
Personally, if you are working around a buzzsaw playstyle, softcapping Def with IOs and dropping tremor and/or fault are not bad choices. At the very least it can open up your build a bit.
I really find it kind of disturbing that whenever anyone makes a suggestion that goes against the norm, or what is considered "mandatory", everyone acts like they have committed a cardinal sin. -
Yeah, I am in the same boat as you Cold, I like my Elec/Elec brute, and tried him on test with the changes. The damage just seems lacking, and if it seems lacking on a brute, it's probably gonna be painful on a tank.
Then again, I am thinking of making an elec/ice tank, so............ -
just been using one steadfast prot on my DA and my FA, only thing generally knocking me down is AVs. Would grab one of the other kb prot IOs for good measure tho.
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Quote:Edit: yeah, looks like the -recharge is unenhanceable. What I was thinking of was the -recharges stacked up. Either way, when CoV was in beta, Ice/Ice underperformed. I have a feeling each part underperformed enough to pull Ice altogether. As has already been stated, under the new mechanics, Ice should be solid all around.Originally Posted by GuessWhosBack
Deth I dont think you can slot for -recharge effects in ice. Slows will slow movement of mobs like quicksand or tarpatch. Not -recharge of attacks. That is unenhanceable iirc.
The thing is, if you were in beta for CoV, you HAVE seen Ice/Ice. They pulled them during beta. The problem is, the rationale for why they were pulled is no longer pertinent.Quote:Originally Posted by Carnifax
Personally I think the main reason you haven't seen Ice Armour for Brutes is simply that NRG Aura was / is too similiar in how it works and may have been originally "Ice Armour for villains" when it was being designed. -
The whole DA argument is only partially valid, and as has been stated, Ice was in CoV beta, and was apparently underperforming to the point they decided to pull it.
Yeah, Ice would be fine now. People want it, they should give it to us. Hell, Ice makes more sense than claws. Not knocking claws, I am itching for the new issue just for them.
This is an aside, but seeing as I can't respond to morons that leave stupid comments on my profile directly.
Quote:Fury is provided by all incoming attacks, whether they hit or not. Don't talk without checking your facts first.
I say this with all due respect, but if you are going to comment on what someone says, actually read the post. Here, I will put it in all caps for you.
I didn't say crap about only things hitting you generating fury. whether something hits you or not it makes a hit-check. So, um, yeah, until you learn how to read, keep your mouth shut.Quote:Originally Posted by _Deth_
the only thing detrimental to the generation of fury is the -recharge effect, which, when slotted for, is actually pretty intense, especially if you went ice/ice.
However, THINGS MAKING HIT-CHECKS on you is not your sole source of fury generation. Every time you hit a mob, you get more fury. So, slap brawl on auto(which is even more useful if they leave the end use out of it as it is on test), and then setup a buzzsaw chain to build fury. Once it's up, start going to work. Ice Patch will allow for that without having to worry about as much incoming damage. Now, if they ported over icicles, then the minions are probably all dead in your first group, your fury is up now, the boss is dead and you can start prancing from group to group, no issues. No worrying about end, and enough mitigation to laugh at pretty much everything. -
look in the guides, JDub posted one recently
a build, not a guide. or just search JDub