_Deth_
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Posts
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Quote:They nerfed Energy Melee pretty bad. Completely neutered.Originally Posted by Shadowpuff
Magik mentioned it but for the most part I don't see too much about energy/ brutes. Why is that?
It used to hit hard as hell, but now, it's kinda meh. -
Quote:wish i could remember the thread offhand, but iirc, he said to expect a nerf in the future.Originally Posted by Werner
It wasn't THAT huge of a nerf, and he didn't say that he would nerf it. He just gave numbers for what he had originally intended the power to do vs. what it was actually doing, then ran off with a migraine. I'm personally expecting a nerf eventually. This will affect farming. How much remains to be seen.
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yeah, it's in for a nerf, don't know the exact numbers, but Castle has said flat out that it is overperforming by a lot
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basically, should be similar solo, slightly higher survivability due to higher hp, but thats about it.
in a group setting, especially with the right buffs, that is where you will see the difference.
Or, if you IO the crap out of him.
The higher defense/resistance/hp caps plus the much higher damage caps can give you wildly different output depending on the group. With enough damage buffs, you can put out damage that is just insane. -
Quote:Comfortable softcapping with SOs doesnt make any set "farcically good" the same thing could be done with an Ice tank. oh, wait, my Ice tank does just that.Originally Posted by Minotaur
Err, then it's a mirage that I've tanked a load of TF/SFs on my /SR scrapper and brute without buffing perfectly easily. The reason /SR is not a tank set is because the numbers would be farcically good, comfortably softcapped with weave, CJ and SOs. It actually tanks stuff that debuffs defence better than a lot of the other sets like ice (and shield unless you have HOs in AD and a lot of recharge).
The thing is, i get a string of bad rolls, I have a heal to back me up. SR does not. -
Quote:Originally Posted by Jharber
Cloak of fear is amazing and we must be playing different games because in my game I use my damage aura and cloak of fear and most mobs are feared over 50% of the fight, they get hit, instantly feared again ... NOT hitting me.
I will keep my heals in my "LEVELING" build tyvm...
Shadow Maul is personal preference, but imo it lowers overall dps and gets me killed like I said before. I would much rather have air superiority.
Tough is so useless imo on DA.... Cloak of fear keeps me alive way more than tough/weave ever would. You talk about end cost of CoF, but you want me to take tough AND weave? AND waste a slot on punch? No way! I will be in your thinking "Less survivable" and since I almost never die now doing +2/+8 I am not sure where I am in the survivable range without tough/weave?
I think most people just see builds by these others posters who do these amazing things with the super builds and just want to jump on the bandwagon. I just want to play the game. I don't need tough/weave to do that. I am not going to solo an AV or a Pylon.
First of all, I don't "just see these super builds and jump on the bandwagon". I build these toons and have seen personally how much more effective they are.
I don't bother with the soft control auras on my DAs once I IO them, because I go straight for the bosses and let my damage aura kill off the minions. I could give a crap about the incoming damage from the minions because most of the time they miss anyway as I am softcapped. Tough and weave allow me to be softcapped.
You want to talk about being more survivable then state that you aren't going to solo an AV, well guess what, I am, and with my build, I can, good luck with yours.
If you just want to play the game, that's fine. You like your build, again, that's also fine. If you are going to hand out advice, then you may want to make sure you know what you are talking about first. -
Quote:your base for defense on dark will be cloak of darkness+cj+weave. Maneuvers is an end hog and gives a bit less defense.Originally Posted by Nny_the_mad
as the tittle suggest, i have issues choosing between the two.
Ela got energize a built in haster and a nice tier nine but the 0% toxic resistance coupled with the set being pure resistance make me fear for my ability to survive (and i will not be able to pruchase 5 purple set or do intensive IO slotting)
Dark seems better to me as i never rolled a toon that would have no defense at all, and with cloak+cj and maybe maneauver i could achieve something like 14% def all which is nice coupled with the res
but even if i can enhance my defense even more with some IO sets, would something like 20% def matters?
should i not go for res or +hp/regen instead?
same for Ela, beside toxic and maybe some psi res, what should i aim for?
+rech to have my tier nine more and energize perma?
+ regen to enhance the regen in energize?
it's for PvE
you can actually softcap your defense on both sets. Not the cheapest thing in the world to do, but you don't need any purples. 45% s/l defense is what you are aiming for.
And me personally, I would go for the defense instead of res or +hp/regen. You won't be able to get enough out of either to make it more worthwhile than going for def softcap. Also, depending on how you do it, you can push up your regen at the same time.
energize is nice, especially perma which is easy to do, power surge I hate, but I hate all tier 9 "god mode" powers. The crash can get you into trouble.
DA is a solid set and has the best heal in the game. -
Quote:The thing is, the scaling starts low enough that you won't get nickle and dimed to death off a string of bad luck on defense rolls, but a big shot that comes through will still be able to take you out.Originally Posted by Minotaur
The resists on /SR when combined with tough are very significant at low hits. Also remember SR's a scrapper/brute set, so those values should scale up for a tanker equivalent. I've had 60%+ res on my scrapper which is more than a DA scrapper can do for S/L. Being essentially immune to defence debuff also helps.
Been trying to check up exactly how the SR scaling resists work, but can't find anything on them, IIRC, you have 60% resists at 0% health so hit the scrapper cap of 75% at extremely low hits with tough, but can't remember where it starts scaling from. This implies at 4/3 as good for a tank, you'd hit the 90% res cap on a meaningful number of hits as you'd be at 104% or so on 0% health with tough.
We aren't talking about scraps here though, we are talking about tanks. SR is not a tanking set, and for good reason. The lack of any static resistance, and no hp buffs/heals, make it a poor choice for tanking. An alpha and a bit of bad luck would equal faceplant more often than not. -
Quote:The AoE drains of DM are great for aggro management, but with DA, between taunt and Death Shroud, you will have no problems holding aggro. DM, is a solid choice to go with DA, and my DA/DM tank is one of my favorite toons to play. As for making your toon a stun bot, the best combo for that is DA/SM, but like you said, until you can start heavily IOing, it is going to be painful endwise. EM is terrible now, so I wouldn't mess with it. Mace would be decent, but in the end, if this is a toon you plan on really building up with IOs, the whole stun thing becomes a gimmick at best. IOed out, DA/* is a beast.Originally Posted by Athanatosis
I was initially gonna pair it with DM because I thought those AoE drains would provide good taunts on everything. But now I'm also considering Mace or EM (preferably EM) to combine with Oppressive Gloom and turn it into a stun bot. Also up for other suggestions.
I don't want to do FM or SS because I've done them before. I'm worried SM is going to be too END heavy with DA.
Also, I'm wondering if maybe I'd prefer DA on a Scrapper instead, since I have no experience tanking. I've wanted a DA toon for a long time now but have never been able to decide what to make it. (A Scrap, Brute, or Tank, or what power set to pair with it).
Was thinking maybe doing a Spines/DA Scrap but I can't see any real reason to choose DA for Spines over FA or especially ELA since it's so great with END in comparison.
Mace is a solid mitigation choice, as you can keep a large number of mobs on their backsides with every other swing. Mace also does a pretty good bit of damage.Quote:Originally Posted by Sunstormer
Well I will say dark is definately one of the more challenging but fun routes to go whilst tanking.
Your secondary I will say depends on what you are wanting to do, if you are wanting to be a team based main tanker, the I would suggest looking into fire, ice or dark since fire has a lot of AoE type powers for agro gaining, ice has a fair amount of control and slows, and dark has another heal with it (although with dark primary the -tohit wont do you much good since you have no defence).
If you want to solo or PvP then SS or Energy are the best routes generally since they specialise in single target damage rather than AoE damage.
Mace isnt a bad choice when linked with dark since it has a fair amount of mitigation with the stuns, but there are better choices if mitigation is what you were after, although mace isnt too bad of a middleman between mitigation and damage since the changes.
Personally the most fun tanker I ever ran in all my years playing them on EU was a dark/fire. It was great to hold agro with and it had some big AoE capabilities yet still required some challenge to it with timing of dark regeneration in larger mobs, particularly in Cimerora
SS is a fine choice for AoE damage, as footstomp is just that good.
Siphon Life is no reason to pick DM, and is crappy for a heal. SL was adjusted and does a good bit of damage, whereas the heal component of it is more like a secondary effect now. The -to hit involved is helpful, as it will make it that much harder for them to hit you whether you have any defense or not, it just has better synergy when you have defense. With DA/*, you can pick up cloak of darkness, CJ and Weave, which give you a solid base of defense, and the -to hit in DM makes it that much better, especially if you slot for it.
For your secondary, pick what you like, unless you are planning on PvP, then go with DM or SS. Maybe even SM. -
Quote:ElA can do the same thing, and isn't as squishy as EAOriginally Posted by Colossal
As many have mentioned WP will save you on endurance due to QR, but also Energy Aura will be able to fully recover you endurance ever 30 seconds w/ just simple SO slotting and would synergize well with the heavy hitters that have those KBs and stuns to help with its semi-squishiness.
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Quote:First off, you should take OG or Cloak of Fear, not both. Personally, I don't suggest Cloak of Fear anyway, as every time your Death Shroud hits them, it wakes em up a sec for them to hit you. Throw in the fact that Cloak of Fear is another major end hog, and it is an easy skip. If you take Touch of Fear however, they have good synergy and can keep bosses feared. OG is great for leveling in my opinion, but pretty useless once you start getting a fair amount of defense built up with IOs.Originally Posted by Jharber
My dark/dark brute does a ton of damage and the only brute I have had so far that I feel very safe almost all of the time soloing +1/+8 and it is fairly easy so I know I could go higher and be fine. I just have an IO build with some expensive unique added in. The only thing I would change is I would drop OG now for soul transfer. I took OG just to try some procs and I only ever use it for fun atm. Once I get the AoE Immobile I can see it having a lot more uses in groups. (I did not show to 50 since I am not 50 yet lol) I also think tough for a dark/dark brute is not needed at all. I just don't think the end consumption is worth what you get personally, I tried it with and without and I do just as good without and save a lot of end and I don't have to take the useless punch. OH and I also suggest for most DM builds that they do not take shadow maul, just imo it slows down my damage and honestly gets me killed sometimes.
The only mobs that give me major trouble atm would be CoH and there huge accuracy/to hit de-buffs since all my stuff needs a check, so they kick the crap out of me most of the time and make me want to add more accuracy to my attacks and soul drain/dark consumption which normally are fine with nothing. When I add in more sets I should be fine with them though. This is just my leveling build atm basically.
As for Shadow Maul, I don't suggest skipping it. Yes, the fact that is plants you for a few seconds is annoying, but as far as cone attacks go, it does a fair amount of damage, you just have to learn to position yourself and the mobs to get maximum effect from it.
Also, you can skip the heal IOs in Siphon Life. Slot it for damage, that is what it's there for. As far as a self heal goes, it is mediocre at best, and you have DR anyway, all other heals are superfluous.
I would also suggest putting tough and weave into your build as well, will give you that much survivability.
Here is my revised version of your build. Def isn't capped, is at 35% for s/l/e/n, which should do well with the increase in damage output in the build.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 50 Magic Brute
Primary Power Set: Dark Melee
Secondary Power Set: Dark Armor
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Soul Mastery
Villain Profile:
Level 1: Smite -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(3), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(5), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(34), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 1: Dark Embrace -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(15), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(39), S'fstPrt-ResKB(40)
Level 2: Shadow Maul -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Erad-Dmg(3), Erad-Acc/Rchg(5), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(13), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(34), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 4: Murky Cloud -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam(7), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(33)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Siphon Life -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(9), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(11), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(37)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(29), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(31), RctvArm-ResDam(40)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(13)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(15)
Level 16: Dark Regeneration -- Theft-+End%(A), Theft-Heal(17), Theft-Heal/Rchg(19), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Theft-Acc/EndRdx/Heal(21)
Level 18: Death Shroud -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(21), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg(27), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx(31), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg(31)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), P'Shift-EndMod(23), P'Shift-End%(25)
Level 22: Cloak of Darkness -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(29)
Level 24: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(25), RechRdx-I(37)
Level 26: Soul Drain -- Erad-Dmg(A), Erad-Acc/Rchg(27), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), Erad-Dmg/Rchg(36), Rec'dRet-ToHit(37), Rec'dRet-ToHit/Rchg(39)
Level 28: Boxing -- Acc-I(A)
Level 30: Dark Consumption -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40), RechRdx-I(42)
Level 32: Midnight Grasp -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg(42), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(42), P'ngS'Fest-Acc/Dmg(43), P'ngS'Fest-Dmg/Rchg(43)
Level 35: Oppressive Gloom -- Acc-I(A)
Level 38: Tough -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam(43), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(46), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 41: Weave -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(50)
Level 44: Gloom -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx(45), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg(45), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(45), Dev'n-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 47: Dark Obliteration -- Posi-Dam%(A), Posi-Acc/Dmg(48), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(48), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(48), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50)
Level 49: Soul Transfer -- RechRdx-I(A)
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Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 38: Ninja Run
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Stone/WP is a beast, especially on ST, but is meh for AoE, unless you pair it with say, Soul Mastery and fill in with Dark Oblit, as Tremor is pretty crappy for AoE damage compared to most of the Primaries AoEs, and Fault does no damage.
WP is a strong set for leveling, and once you start IOing it only gets better. Paired with Fault in SM, for leveling, you have an excellent soft control to allow your regen to work for you. Once you hit 50 you can easily respec out of Fault once you start IOing to pick up more damage.
I love my SM/WP, soooooooo much fun. But, like I said, is best for single target. For AoE goodnes, Claws/WP is shaping up to be just nuts. Have mine up to 32 and just keeps getting better and better. -
Quote:Cus we think we got away with somethingOriginally Posted by Dechs Kaison
"Why is it that we feel most alive on the very edge of death?"
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Quote:Umm, if you have a dm/da brute already, and your damage is low, you did something wrong. I have a DA/DM tank and it has solid damage output, and it isn't even optimized for damage. Your damage output with that combination on a brute should be fantastic.Originally Posted by Shadowpuff
My DM/DA is lvl 50. I had fun getting her there and the survivability is good. But her damage is low. SM/DA sounds fun. Which other primary would work well?
If you are willing to drop some serious cash on an IOed build, SM/DA is an incredible combo. You have excellent mitigation while leveling with OG and Fault, once you can start a serious IO build and get close to the def cap, you can easily drop OG and Fault, as they become incredibly situational, and work on building your damage output even more. Stone melee is soooooo smashy, I have a SM/WP and that toon is a terror. End use is unholy, but once you can start building up your IOs it will get better, especially with the ToE +End proc. -
plus gloom does a truckload of damage.
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Quote:brute wins, the extra aggro keeps his fury capped and he kills it faster than the scrapper can, the extra hp keeps him alive long enough to make sure of it.Originally Posted by doomrider
If a scrapper and a brute with identical builds were sitting in a mob a of +4 arachnos do you honestly think that hp difference would really make a lick of difference? no. If anything the brute would steal aggro from the scrapper and faceplant.
of course, it also depends on the secondary. If it's WP, then the extra regen the brute gains from his higher hp base means he not only lives longer than the scrapper, he does so comfortably. Then again, with the higher HP base, any self heals are more effective as well. -
Quote:In a bubble, with no inspirations, and with no outside buffs, the brute still has more survivability. Higher HP is nothing to sneeze at. Also, the fury mechanic puts them ahead in both mitigation and damage output.Originally Posted by doomrider
My point originally was that when you compare the two AT's, in terms of numbers, without factoring in buffs/inspirations they're very similar in terms of survivability and damage output.
Scrappers have better burst damage, but over time brutes will pull into the lead in constant dps.
This means that survivabilitywise, the brute has the edge on 2 fronts. And that is in a bubble.
If you take into account real situations, the brute comes out even farther ahead. With inspirations you can take substantially less damage, OR due to the substantially higher damage bonus cap, you can put out damage that a scrapper can't come close to.
Throw them on the right team, and it's no contest.
If you are going to compare them, compare them. Throwing limitations on the comparison makes it invalid. -
I'm actually curious as to your build as well, wonder how it compares to mine.
Only thing thats eating me alive are those stupid Romans (I skipped all the Cim mishes when I was leveling my DA/DM) set on x8/+4. Unless I have a crapton of purps on me anyways. -
Quote:yeah, but the thing is, you can pop a bunch of oranges on a brute, or hang out with some cool cats that will buff you, and you can get to the same defense and resistance caps as a tank. Scrappers can't.Originally Posted by doomrider
The only thing that makes a brute more survivable than a scrapper is a higher base hp. Before any buffs outside your secondary, res and def numbers for brutes and scrappers are the same. If anything, a scrapper would be more survivable due to the fact that a brute generates more aggro. (Brutes taunt aura is mag 4 and scrappers is mag 3 for the scrapper secondaries that even have a taunt aura) As far as tanking is concerned, whether your specifically meaning aggro management then yes a brute will hold aggro better but as far as taking the alpha is concerned, it entirely comes down to the player and the build.
Also, when you IO a brute, you can get to the same HP cap as a tank can, Scrappers can't.
It's not the base that makes brutes superior in survivability, it's the potential. -
lmao, I just noticed the dates on the first posts.
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chasing around mobs doesnt help the issue tho, and teamed with an MM, unless they are already well versed in controlling their pets, that is going to happen.
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Ice/Dark should be an excellent combo. You have great synergy between the defense and -to hit. Add in extra endurance stability from dark consumption, Soul Drain and chilling embrace to debuff, icicles for extra debuffing and damage.
You will be able to put out excellent ST damage, and decent AoE damage to boot.
I would take tough, as a bit of damage resistance is always nice, weave is also nice to make it easier to softcap. Neither is necessary, but they are a good idea. Weave is definitely skippable if you IO well. -
Like I said, was a personal preference, and whatever works for him, run with it.
That said, if you run on x8 all the time, which I do, footstomp, no matter how fast it recycles, will not mitigate enough damage. -
Quote:Again, your question wasn't valid. Which tank can survive longer depends on the situation the tank is in. Certain sets survive better in certain situations. In your average every day s/l situations, if you know how to play your tank, then you have just as much of a chance of surviving no matter what set you choose. They all have different tools for survivability, and knowing how and when to use those tools determines your survivability.Originally Posted by Kitty
I didn't ask for the best in general, I asked for the best survivability, and most of you overlooked that and argued the point that there is no best in general
A lot of people seemed to mention the same few power sets which helped me to narrow them all down to
Invun/WP/Stone as being the best for damage mitigation, not many mentioned the likes of Ice.
so I guess my question was valid since there are better tanks which can survive longer than others
and fair enough there are some sets which can do other things better, but all I wanted was some feedback on the best for taking damage. which was a more than valid question
What you really wanted to know was which Tanker primary requires the least amount of skill and attention to play. Which set is most forgiving in most situations. That isn't a measure of survivability, it is a measure of player skill.
Survivability is not the main function of a Tanker, the main function of a tanker is aggro control. Your job in a group setting is to make sure that the squishier members of your group don't faceplant unless they do something really stupid. An excellent tanker will even prevent that from happening. Some people refuse to take self-rez powers on Tankers because they believe the Tanker should ALWAYS be the last man standing. I believe that if the Tanker is the last man standing, he has failed. I like taking the self-rez powers on my tanks where they are offered, because they are offered for a reason. If I die, then I still have the ability to protect my team because I have the ability to stun the mobs, get back on my feet and regain control of the situation. I may not have survived, but I did my job and am back standing.
That is the problem with these "what is the best" threads. There is no best. Is there a best for "situation X". Yeah, there is. But if you know how to play your toon, you don't have to be "best" to get the job done, and done well.
I agree entirely with Fireheart and Dechs. This subject has been done to death. Play the damn game, take the time to learn the powersets and figure out what you are comfortable with and what you enjoy. The "best" or "most survivable" means squat if you don't enjoy it. If you aren't having fun, you will play like crap and be useless to everyone. I have toons that are supposedly the "best" combinations or powersets that I hate with a passion. I don't play them, and only keep them because they are level 50 and I may find whatever fun I had with them when I first made them. The "inferior" sets that I play regularly, and I love, can usually stack up with anyone playing the "best" set. Why, because I enjoy the toon enough to learn what I can and can't get away with. I know how to react in most situations. I know what I need to do and when. That is what makes a powerset best. No single set, with all the IOs in the world can make up for crappy play. Yet, because of the closed mindedness that comes with this type of question, people perpetuate that type of stupidity.