Arbegla
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Posts
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Joined
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Ya know, i think all self-rezes, aside from inspirations, provided atleast 10 seconds of untouchable, regardless of what they do otherwise (Rise of the Phoenix does inferno level damage, massive amounts of KB, and makes you untouchable for a good 30+seconds.. and its in an epic power pool for more ATs...)
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Quote:It also depends on slotted. While your claw/SR could be slotted for aid self, tough/weave etc, the scrapper could just have the rebirth destiny, pray the passive +regen covers his survival, and throws in assault into his build for extra damage.Originally Posted by Granite Agent
Did 2 pylon runs to confirm my DPS on my Claws/SR brute. running about ~190dps.
That's below what Claws scraps were getting. So I still think for single-target, Brute claws falls behind?
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showp...postcount=1969
When you compare identical builds, brutes are higher by ~10% damage, due to higher DPA numbers on thier attacks. Now, on non identical builds, or even general human error, brutes and scrapper could be on par damage wise. -
Quote:Not sure where you got that information from, as a brute would deal 186.6 damage on a brute, and 177.4 damage on a scrapper. Still putting the brute ahead.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Hey good point, where exactly is shockwave in this? Did you perhaps notice that it's a substantially better power for scrappers as the brute version received no damage boost to match its increased recharge?
Evis is actually a pretty decent attack. Higher damage on a brute as well. Not sure where your saying its a not-very-good attack.Quote:Well if you want me to point out the most obvious way without even questioning your numbers it'd be that the scrapper is doing most of this dps to ten targets while the brute is doing most of its dps to five targets. The brute was also compelled to take an additional not-very-good attack in the process. Is that a positive thing? And you did mention shockwave, didn't you?
The reason i didn't use shockwave because its better to do some damage, then no damage, and you can't chain follow->spin->shockwave on a scrapper is because there would be too much of a gap on spin, so you have to use evis for its longer animation, unless you want to do nothing while you wait.
You could pretty easily chain followup->spin->evis->shockwave and the brute would still pull out ahead compared to followup->spin->evis->shockwave on a scrapper.
Double followup wouldn't apply to all the powers in that chain, due to the duration of followup being 10seconds, and the chain is 7.392, so you'll really only get double followup on followup and spin. Evis and shockwave wouldn't be able to benefit from double followup due to the first followup falling off during the seconds spin's animation time. So lets look at the numbers, with Followup and Spin benefiting from double followup, and evis and shockwave only getting the benefit from 1 followup.Quote:all hell, are you factoring in double followup? If followup is ignored the scrapper does less damage, but why would the scrapper forget to use one of her best powers?
Brute:
Followup -> 176.9
Spin -> 350.8
Evis -> 371
Shockwave -> 200.8
Total damage -> 1099.5
Total time -> 7.392
Total DPS -> 148.74
Scrapper:
Followup -> 200.2
Spin -> 342.5
Evis -> 386
Shockwave -> 204.4
Total damage -> 1133.1
Total time -> 7.392
Total DPS -> 153.29
Now, while it does look like the scrapper pulls ahead, thats assuming all of the attacks crit right at 10%, meaning your only fighting LTs and bosses. If you take out the crit chance, as its really not a very dependable damage point, your looking at these numbers:
Scrapper:
Followup -> 185.1
Spin -> 312.7
Evis -> 337.5
Shockwave -> 187.2
Total damage -> 1022.5
Total time -> 7.392
Total DPS -> 138.33
So really, it depends on what you want to work with, the scrapper may start out with higher damage, but the brute will pull ahead by a decent amount once they hit 70% fury (which again, can go higher) and the scrapper could pull ahead by having a lucky streak of crits going off. Fury is much more dependable then crits are, but there ya go, the math is there to show it.
Brute Claws > Scrapper Claws but by a small margin. Now, brute /elec is much greater then scrapper /elec due to increased resistance, higher HP, and better regen. -
Quote:I did notice that, except ya know, it also has evis and even shockwave as well. Plus the damage aura. Would you like to run the numbers on it for me?Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Oy.
Okay so two things.
Arbegla, did you notice that in the build you posted to show me how stupid I am for just using spin, you only have spin as a dependable aoe? Great, thanks.
The brute build's spin does 303.5 damage with 70% fury, and recharges in 4.24 seconds with hasten active. total DPS 71.58DPS
The scrappers build spin does 260.9 damage (even accounting for crits, go go mids) and recharges in 2.79 seconds. Total DPS 93.51
So, the scrapper is ahead on pure DPS.
Now, while that's all fine and good, lets compare AoE chains.
The brute, with the higher spin recharge time, would need to fill the 4.24 second gap with something, lets say Follow up -> spin -> evis -> focus. that seems like a decent enough chain.
Followup = 156.9 damage
Spin = 303.5 damage
Evis = 343.7 damage
Focus = 220.8 damage
Total chain time = 7.524 seconds
Total damage = 1024.9 damage
Total Damage per second = 136.22DPS
The scrapper would need to fill the 2.79 second void with something, so lets just say it uses followup -> spin -> focus as that'll have enough time to run the chain. won't be quite gapless though, even with the lower recharge times on spin, but the gap is only .414 seconds, so it prolly won't be noticeable much.
Follow up = 158.9
Spin = 260.9
Focus = 201.5
Total chain time = 5.016 seconds
Total damage = 621.5 damage
Total damage per second = 123.86DPS
Hmm.. still looking like the brute is ahead... Now how can that be if spin is so much better on a scrapper then on a brute? Oh, thats because the other claws powers are also better on a brute then on a scrapper. -
Or better yet, PM BillZ.. so he can smack some claws/ intelligence into you.
Unless your just going to try to tell him hes also wrong, due to well, him just being wrong.
You can't just spam spin. or else you will be doing NOTHING while spin is recharging. If you want to play an claw/elec and just spam spin (or better yet, use SINGLE TARGET attacks to supplement your AOE attack chain) then by all means, you do that. In the mean time, i'll be AoEing thing down like a chainsaw on my brute, and you can focus on whittling things down one by one (or rather, one by 10 by one..?)
Lets take things a step further shall we, and actually compare builds side by side. See, here is my elec/claws proposed level 50 build, complete with Musculature Alpha boost. Mainly cuz i haven't decided on the other incarnate slots, and mainly cuz hes only currently level 28, but regardless, here he is:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.942
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Reign of Pain: Level 50 Mutation Brute
Primary Power Set: Claws
Secondary Power Set: Electric Armor
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery
Villain Profile:
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Level 1: Swipe C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg(A), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(13), C'ngImp-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(15)
Level 1: Charged Armor TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(40), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(42), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(42), TtmC'tng-ResDam(42), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(43)
Level 2: Slash Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(3), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Achilles-ResDeb%(5)
Level 4: Conductive Shield TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx(A), TtmC'tng-ResDam(37), TtmC'tng-ResDam/Rchg(37), TtmC'tng-EndRdx/Rchg(37), TtmC'tng-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(39), TtmC'tng-EndRdx(39)
Level 6: Spin Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(15), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(17), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(17), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(23), Oblit-%Dam(23)
Level 8: Follow Up Hectmb-Dmg/Rchg(A), Hectmb-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(9), Hectmb-Acc/Rchg(9), Hectmb-Dmg/EndRdx(11), Hectmb-Dam%(11), GSFC-Build%(13)
Level 10: Static Shield RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-EndRdx(39), RctvArm-ResDam(40), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 12: Combat Jumping LkGmblr-Rchg+(A)
Level 14: Super Jump Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 16: Grounded S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 18: Focus Decim-Acc/Dmg(A), Decim-Dmg/Rchg(19), Decim-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), Decim-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(21), Decim-Build%(21)
Level 20: Lightning Reflexes Run-I(A)
Level 22: Lightning Field Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Dam%(27)
Level 24: Hasten RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(34), RechRdx-I(34)
Level 26: Eviscerate Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(29), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(31), Oblit-%Dam(31)
Level 28: Energize Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(31), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(33), Dct'dW-Heal(33), Dct'dW-Rchg(33)
Level 30: Taunt Zinger-Dam%(A)
Level 32: Shockwave Posi-Acc/Dmg(A), Posi-Dmg/Rchg(34), Posi-Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36), Posi-Dam%(36)
Level 35: Power Sink Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(43), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(43), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(46), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx(46)
Level 38: Power Surge RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(A), RctvArm-EndRdx/Rchg(46), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), RctvArm-ResDam(48)
Level 41: Boxing Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A)
Level 44: Tough RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(45), RctvArm-ResDam(45), RctvArm-EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Superior Conditioning EndMod-I(A)
Level 49: Physical Perfection RgnTis-Regen+(A)
Level 0: Born In Battle
Level 0: High Pain Threshold
Level 0: Invader
Level 0: Marshal
Level 50: Musculature Total Radial Revamp
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Level 1: Brawl Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint EndRdx-I(A)
Level 2: Rest RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Fury
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 2: Swift Run-I(A)
Level 2: Hurdle Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Health Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Numna-Heal(50), Mrcl-Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Stamina P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(48), P'Shift-EndMod(50)
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Now, lets take his exact build, and turn it into a scrapper instead of a brute. Lets see how that stacks up:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
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Comparing damage, resistance, and regen values the brute is ahead in just about every way.
So even using mids, with identical builds, the brute is ahead. You really want to try again? -
Even /shield? With AAO and shield charge?
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Quote:What do you plan on doing that 32.5% def won't be enough? Thats enough defense to softcap with 1 purple, and/or 1 application of DA.. seems like a fair enough trade to me, especially if your going for farming, as all of those mobs (the AE ones anyways) only have a base 50% chance to hit, meaning the normal softcap of 45% works just fine..Originally Posted by Moonlighter
32.5 won't be enough survivability, either for farming or what I want to do with the build. As for damage, single target plus a damage aura plus Burn is plenty. I'm looking for more survivability.
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Quote:Due to the fact it actually adds a minor damage component to each of your attacks, regardless of how much damage they already do (basically, jab does 70 damage. with FE active, jab now does 70 smashing damage, and 35 fire damage, the 70 smashing damage is enhanceable, i'm not sure if the fire damage is or not..)Originally Posted by Fiery-Enforcer
Yeah, Fiery Embrace works best when you're at the damage cap.
Put yourself at the damage cap, and FE will still rein supreme due to the fact it effectively adds a 100% chance damage proc to each of your attacks, instead of a straight up damage boost. -
My moneys on Manti.. and then sister psyche going down the mother mayhem route, and mind controlling everyone to kill the person who killed manti...
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I've actually been yelled at to heal more on my empathy, mainly because the leader (of course a tanker) liked seeing green numbers, and thought if they weren't there i was being lazy and leeching.
Ironically enough, noones green bars (or even blue bars for that matter) where moving much due to fortitude preventing people from getting hit, and the RAs and ABs being used to top off those who liked to soak alphas. I really do find +regen to be much more useful then straight out heals. -
Quote:So because the scrapper has a lower damage cap, and a higher damage mod its going to perform better yet lower resistance cap, and lower hp, compared to a Brute who has a higher damag cap and a lower damage mod in addition to higher resistance cap, and higher HP.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
"My math" was demonstrating that your claim of infinite brute superiority was ludicrous, Arbegla. You've corroborated my assertion, not disproven it. Speaking of the damage cap, how much additional buffing does it take the brute to get there? How much for the scrapper? Hmm...
Better isn't exactly what your going for. See, your looking at DPS (damage per second) but the name of the game here is DPA (damage per activation time) Which brutes will out perform scrapper on, due to higher DPA numbers (higher damage scale on brute attacks with claws, means higher damage per attack)Quote:The funny thing is, I never said scrapper spin hit harder than brute spin. I said it was better. It is. At any level of recharge, it is back in 66% of the time it takes for brute spin to get back. At the recharge cap, this makes it a full second faster still. With less recharge, the gap is even wider. Having high recharge is not "better" because it can be reduced. That's a completely outlandish argument. That is equivalent to saying that hail of bullets is better than rain of arrows because it has a 120 second recharge and ~14% higher damage.
There is still only so many times you can spam spin, you'll need something else to put in that chain. If all your use where claws AoEs, being shockwave, spin, and evis, the brute would pull ahead due to higher DPA numbers. If you start adding in patron pools, and epic power pools, the brute would still pull ahead, due to higher DPA numbers.
Higher recharge times actually means you can space more attacks in while your waiting, and use your higher DPA attacks. Which basically, everything except follow up is a higher DPA attack for brutes then it is for scrapper. Again, nice try but your looking at the wrong numbers to try to justify your respond.
I was merely using your own 160% damage boost that you mentioned. Just using your own numbers, and checking your own math, which proved out to me wrong. It doesn't matter if the scrapper can recharge spin faster, when the brute hits harder with it. Especially when that time frame can be reduced even further. Scrappers vs brutes are balanced around the medium of all the powersets, but pound for pound, brute claws > scrapper claws and until you prove math showing otherwise, your be wrong. especially when people have already done the math showing it, like BillZ has already done.Quote:I notice you're also being extremely charitable to the brute on the fury number. Funny, but what I've heard brute players saying in other situations is that 65-70% fury is the new norm. Or does the average sustainable fury depend on whether you're trying to crap on scrappers or claim that scrapper is op and brute need buff? Seems as though it might. -
Very nice. that makes sets with -dmg and -res that much better with higher values (go go thermal defenders
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I coulda swore it was you techbot that shows us some AV/GMs soloing. Then again, it could've been Dechs, and for whatever reason i seem to get you two confused *both decent bot/traps players*
If i am mistaken i am sorry, but i still personally don't feel MMs have it any worse then anyone else, and that MMs actually have the easiest time on trials, due in part to being able to ignore the majority of the mechanics (I'm being disentregrated? Nifty, now why isn't my HP bar moving? Oh yea.. bodyguard mode and rebirth +regen stacking with triage beacon.. nice..)
As well as being able to basically ignore nova fist's warning, and being able to soak the pulses without much trouble at all. -
Quote:Really? Lets compare your numbers shall we?Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
For some reason I don't feel that compelled to produce numbers when what I'm arguing against is "damage auras are infinitely better because of fury" and "fury is a damage bonus therefore scrappers are worse." This isn't exactly rocket surgery. Scrapper spin hits 88% as hard as brute spin and recharges in 66% of the time. Oh look, I was wrong about followup. It isn't three times as effective for scrappers assuming the brute has 160% damage bonus from fury, it's at least four times as effective, as it not only operates on a much higher damage scale but it also has a higher buff value. Not only that, but any additional buffs you manage to tack on, assault for instance, will be significant for the scrapper and meaningless for the brute.
Let's look at damage auras, shall we? A scrapper with 95% enhancement and double stacked followup should see 34 damage per tick on lightning field. A brute with 95% enhancement and double stacked followup and 160% bonus damage from fury will be doing... dun dun dun, 34 damage per tick. Wow, that's infinitely better! Tell me more, Arbegla!
I'm not impressed.
Scrappers Spin, as per red tomax as i don't have mids nor in game numbers off hand due to being at work.
spin for scrappers has a damage scale of 1.659, or about 98.85 damage
spin for brutes has a damage scale of 1.89, or about 78.83 damage
Now, lets add double stacked follow up.
For a scrapper you have 37.5% * 2 or 75% damage
For a brute you have 30% * 2 or 60% damage
Then lets factor in the inherents
For a scrapper you have critcals, which only affect the primary, and adds about 10% more damage (on average)
For a brute, you have fury, which scales up to 200% damage, but normally averages out at about 160% damage (80% fury)
And now lets add in enhancements, for 95% damage to each AT.
So for a scrapper you have:
(98.85 * 10%) + (98.85 * 2.7) = 9.885 + 266.895 = 276.78 damage after accounting for double stacked follow up, enhancements and criticals.
2.7 is the 1.0 base, plus .75 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements
For a brute you have
(78.83 * 4.15) = 327.1445 damage after accounting for double stacked follow up, 95% enhancements, and 80% fury.
4.15 is the 1.0 base, plus the 1.6 for fury, plus the .6 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements.
Last i checked, 327.1445 is greater then 276.78. Which would mean the scrapper actually does 84.6% the damage the brute does, once you account for enhancements, double stacked follow up, and fury.
And now lets check the math on your damage auras, using /elec lightning field as an example.
Again, lets assume 95% enhancements, double stacked follow up, and 80% fury for the brute, and 95% enhancements, and double stacked follow up for the scrapper.
Scrappers Lightning field does 12.51 damage
Brutes lightning field does 8.34 damage
So a scrapper would do:
(12.51 * 2.7) damage or about 33.777 damage every tick
2.7 is the 1.0 base, plus .75 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements
A brute would do:
(8.34 * 4.15) damage or about 34.611 damage every tick
4.15 is the 1.0 base, plus the 1.6 for fury, plus the .6 for follow up, and .95 for enhancements.
Its close, but the brute still pulls ahead. Granted the scrapper is still doing 98% the damage the brute is doing, but the brute can still push it higher. Lets see what the damage cap would do shall we?
12.51 for the scrapper, at a 500% damage, which is the damage cap, would be 12.51 * 5 or about 62.55 damage.
8.34 for the brute, at 775% damage, which is the damage cap for them, would be 8.34 * 7.75 or about 64.635 damage.
Hmm.. looks like even at the damage cap the brute pulls ahead.
So now that i've proven your math wrong, where's your numbers to back it up? -
Quote:Also i think BillZ put the difference at about 10%, assuming sustainable fury of about 70-80% (which is entirely possible, but could drop between spawns) so its not much of a difference on paper.Originally Posted by Sailboat
Well, I have a level 50 Claws/Willpower Scrapper, fully IO-ed out, with a lot of Incarnate Shards and several anniversary badges, whose backstory could allow him to be a heroic Brute if I wanted to re-roll. He was made years before it was possible to bring Brutes blueside.
I know Willpower is flat-out stronger on a Brute and I've been following the Claws arguments with interest. I do really like spamming Scrapper Spin -- which is significantly faster, not just a little faster -- but I don't pretend to know something the serious analysts don't.
I don't think it's worth re-rolling in my case -- I'm not even sure I like Fury. But I hope Scrapper Claws isn't too far behind Brute version. Sigh.
Also, while brute claws > scrapper claws you do have to factor in any boosts your secondary may give you. Damage auras are infinitely better for brutes then scrappers due to fury being able to fuel them, but secondaries without damage auras (like SR for example) seem to perform better for scrappers given the same budget and playstyle.
Might be something to take into account in the event of a reroll, but if your already invested, its prolly best to just stay the way you are. -
Quote:http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...er_Melee.ClawsOriginally Posted by PleaseRecycle
I assume you meant 2.66 seconds for spin then, still not sure how adjusting for arcanatime could take focus from 1.17 to 1.46 though! Anyway, that's irrelevant. My point is that claws/elec in and of itself happens to be an excellent farming combination for scrappers. I think it's fairly clear that a brute built the same way will be severely lacking either in aoe or in defense. You can make up for this with a pure farming build, but as Hai points out, you already have a SS/FA as your exclusive farmer, so why would you do that?
Your right, i was looking at the wrong numbers. Thats what i get for typing at work. The right numbers would be .83 for follow up, 2.5 for spin, and 1.17 for focus, which means you'll need to have spin recharge in 2 seconds, which just increases the amount of required recharge even more.. Your still not looking at a 'budget build' either way.
You've yet to show how a brute built the same way as a scrapper would be 'severely lacking in either AOE or in defense' especially when accounting for fury and the higher resistance and HP base and caps that brutes have. Softcapped defense is still the same regardless of AT, so all you have to increase your survival is the higher resistance and HP caps of a brute. I'm not sure how that favors a scrapper at all...
You again have yet to prove that a claw/elec scrapper is superior then a claw/elec brute except for the lowered recharge times of spin, which is not that only thing that can benefit a brute. Fury fueling the damage aura adds an obsence amount of damage, as well as fueling everything else the brute has going for it.Quote:I'm not interested in making a pure farmer, I'm interested in characters that are highly capable across a range of content. From that perspective, claws/elec is clearly superior in scrapper form. You have excellent damage easily available without committing to an epic pool that's far less appealing when not farming, you've got more than enough survivability to tank whatever AV you'd care to, you can farm well if you feel like it, basically the only thing you don't get is the taunt aura which isn't a particularly big deal if you have any experience rounding up groups without it. To call it some kind of coup to get more out of power surge is like saying that awakens are better for brutes because they leave you with more HP. Who cares?
brutes also get more out of the passive, and generally the other resistance numbers before even accounting for power surge over a scrapper. the difference between 75% resistance to energy, and 90% resistance to energy, when facing energy heavy mobs is massive. The regeneration benefits of energize when compared between brutes and scrappers is also massive. Can you please provide actual mathematical evidence that claw/elec brutes < claw/elec scrappers besides just saying it? -
Yeah, i did mean necro/ sorry, posting at work, and mind gets side tracked sometimes.
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Quote:Look at the math, those are based on Red Tomax's animation times, which is set for Arcanatime, which is the time it actually takes to animate said powers. Spirtual core adds about 15%-35% recharge, depending on if its t1 or t4 which would match my estimation of about 116% (assuming of course your 70% global recharge, which is still pushing it for perma hasten, which is what you'll need to run that AOE chain)Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Arbegla, not sure where you got those cast times but they're interesting to say the least. As for the recharge required, actually you need about 70% global recharge and spiritual core. Now that's easy to do.
And like already stated, even follow up is a waste of time on ambush farming. Its all about AoE spam, and the redraw time on claws is less then a seconds (i think its something like .66 seconds, werner would have to correct me on it) so even if you went spin -> electric fenses -> ball lightning you'd still do more damage on a brute when compared to follow up -> spin -> focus. Your really underestimating fury, which i think is your biggest problem, but not your only problem with your arguement for claw/elec scrappers being better then claw/elec brutes. -
Quote:OK, lets break it down.. Follow up on a scrapper has a .83 activation time, spin is 1.66, and focus is 1.46 seconds, so in order to chain them all together without a pause you need spin to charge in about 2.29 seconds. Pretty that'll be the crutch, so lets see if its even possible. Looking at the scrapper recharge times, spin recharges in 9.2 seconds, so in order for it to recharge in 2.29 seconds, you have to have about 301% recharge. enhancements add about 95%, quickness another 20%, and hasten 70%, so you need about 116-ish global recharge before you can even think about running that chain effectively.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Tell me what your aoe chain would be on an ambush farming claws/elec brute. I can tell you what it won't be: followup -> spin -> focus. You could swap out focus for eviscerate or you could intermittently insert dark oblit and whatever else is recharged when that isn't. Both of those options are inferior to the easily attainable scrapper chain, if you consider that the scrapper can just as easily insert fireball instead of focus half the time. I find that fireball is unnecessary - spin, followup and lightning field really need no assistance in ticket capping rapidly. Survivability is a non issue, as is build cost. So yes, you could spend more to do nearly as well with a claws/elec brute and also be slightly better at AV soloing maybe? Who really cares about that anymore?
Can you please show me an affordable claw/elec build that has 116% global recharge in it? Cuz off the top of my head i cant think of one, without diving head first into purple IOs, and those aren't exactly affordable these days.
Plus once you factor in fury, the brute really just needs to use spin to keep up. Lightning field, and a single target chain to fill in the gaps on spin (which you'll need single target attacks to down bosses anyways, as you are farming with bosses on right?) is enough to clear out the minions and LTs before things really hit the fan. And the higher resistance values on brutes means that even if you chew inspirations like candy on that scrapper, the brute will still take about 15% less damage (75% capped resistance vs 90% on the brute)
I figure my resistance values are a little off, but you get the general idea. Given identical builds, the claw/elec brute will pull ahead with ease. -
Quote:Your seriously undervaluing +150 - +160% damage bonus on top of follow up. Brutes also get followup, which is why i didn't mention it. Fury fueled spin and double stacked follow up > double stacked follow up spin, even when you factor in crits.Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle
Lightning field is also buffed by follow up. Spin recharge is indeed slightly better for scrappers, if 66% is slight. Power surge? Heh. As ever with brutes vs scrappers, it's mitigation vs damage. Scrapper claws/elec does better damage. Magical thinking has little impact on the truth of this.
Its really just claw/Elec brute > claw/elec scrapper anyway you cut it. Due in part to fury and higher mitigation. Fury feeds off lower damage, fast recharging attacks, and claws as that in spades. Once you factor in fury, there is very little chance a elec/claws scrapper can keep up, even if every single attack they do crits. -
Quote:While true, any combination of thugs/ dark/ demon/ and /storm can benefit from them. Thats a pretty extensive list. Also any controller with a pet can benefit from both of the auras, due to all the controller pets being able to slot normal pet sets, and RIP sets.Originally Posted by Rajani Isa
Well, they only work on your own pets, which can make it a little tricky for some MMs to pull off as not all have a RIP-set pet to sneak them in on.
Im also pretty sure i forgot some of the MM combinations, and i swear there is another secondary that can slot RIP slots besides /storm. -
I've ran every trial to date on my MM, and managed to t4 her out on just Lambda and Baf.
While my pets do die, when they aren't around me it doesn't automatically mean i die. My main form of mitigation is from higher +def numbers, which my toggles and FFG provide (and if FFG doesn't keep up with me, its literally a button click away)
The main problem I have noticed is that folks are using bodyguard mode as a crutch, and when it fails they don't have much of a way out to prevent cascading failure of thier mitigation.
Quote:Tell that to my bot/traps, and even your own. You've listed multiple things that just about any other AT wouldn't be able to do that you've managed to pull off with realitive ease.Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
MMs are NOT ultimate, unstoppable killing machines like people keep harping on and on and ON about.
While the MM base HP is really low, at just over 800, once you add in Accolades your sitting on about 1000hp, which isn't too shabby in its own. Once you add in HP boosting powers such as frostwork, and t4 rebirth (with the +Hp) your can easily cap your HP at 1606, which is the same as blasters and stalkers.Quote:MMs are balanced around a number of factors;
1) They need pets up and running to have meat/metal-shields for their otherwise pitiful HP
While it is true that the personal attacks that MMs have do very low damage at very high end costs, there are plenty of ways to do damage outside of pets. Look at how controllers do damage. Most of the damage they do is in the form of pets, or APP/PPPs, which is how MMs can also do decent damage without their pets around. They also have the same debuff numbers of corruptors and controllers in most cases. Take for example trick arrow, which is shared by defenders, corruptors, controller and MMs. Acid arrow does the same -res and -def for corruptors, controllers and MMs, and flash arrow is only 1.25% lower on MMs then corruptors and controllers, and poison gas arrow and glue arrow summons the same pet for all 4 ATs.Quote:2) They need pets up to do any meaningful damage, due to poor personal attacks
As already mentioned, MMs are on par debuff/buff wise with corruptors and controllers (looking over thermal shields for a second, which controllers, corruptors and MMs all have access to, and the numbers are identical for the +res shields, slightly lower on forge for MMs (15% tohit/30% dam for MMs, 20% tohit/40% dam for corruptors/controllers) and on par for -resistance in melt armor (-15% def, -22.5% resistance for MMs, -20% def, -22.5% resistance for corr/controllers) Other powersets play about the same way, with MMs maybe losing 1 - 5% on corr/controllers for -tohit and -def values, but keeping the same +resistance and -resistance values, which are usually much more valueable to teams then -tohit and -def)Quote:3) They have lower buff/debuff numbers than things like Defenders or Corruptors (unsure about Controllers)
While this i can't really argue, taking it as a comparison between Brutes, scrappers, stalker and even tankers, but when compared to corruptors, controllers, and defenders, the DoT aspect is about on par, due to powersets like AR, dark blast, dual pistols, fire blast, and just about any control powerset. Are you trying to compare a ranged damage/support/pet AT with a melee oriented/armor AT and then saying its unfair for the ranged damage/support/pet AT due to lower damage numbers? Show me a brute that can boost others resistance by 20 - 40%, or lower an enemys resistance values by upwards of 60% and then you might have a fair comparison.Quote:4) They usually have a higher focus on DoT, rather than the raw and usuaully higher burst damage of such ATs as Brutes, Scrappers and Stalkers
This is only true in non trial situations as all of the trials have been modified to prevent AoEs to cause a cascading failure in a MMs mitigation due to pets. Nearly all of the major AoEs either completely ignore pets, or do 1/2 base damage to them. Marauders Nova fist, and Antimatters Pulses do 0 damage to pets, and any of antimatters AoEs do 1/2 damage to pets.Quote:5) They suffer far more from AoEs than other ATs, due to the relatively low health of pets, shields and buffs not withstanding.
Also while this game is balanced around SOs, its always balanced around buffs and shields, and with the current changes to allow all of the major buffs to become AoEs, MMs actually benefit the most from buffs and shields, due to the layered nature of bodyguard mode.
Even in non-trial content, well played MMs, like yourself, usually have a hard time dying quickly to high AoE enemies due to the player, like yourself, knowing how to either avoid the damage completely or finding ways to prevent your pets from being hit. The radius on bodyguard mode allows you to effectively soak most AoEs without your pets being hit by them, and if your pets are hit, you have many ways to either get them back up on their feet, or prevent some of the damage from causing a cascading failure.
I know your a good enough player to adjust on the fly, I've read plenty of your antics. Saying MMs are at a disadvantage due to the above reasons, yet still being able to do what you do really doesn't make your points very accountable.
Plus there is always the fact that the pets will instantly teleport to you when you get a certain distance away (i think its about 125 feet?) so if you do happen to zoom ahead of your pets without a means for them to catch up they usually fall back in line pretty quickly. -
Quote:Eh, by that defination anyone with the rebirth destiny boost is a healer. and While my MM certain can bring your green bar back up (via double stacked triage beacon and t4 rebirth) i wouldn't consider her a healer by any strech of the imagination.Originally Posted by New Dawn
Urm Yes, if you can heal, to many people you are a healer. You can fight it all you want with something like "just because I have passed a first aid course it didn't make me the best person to resuscitate that dying man over there". If a leader was expecting a Dark to heal without affecting an enemy then yes they are ridiculous.
While plenty of primary and secondarys offer 'healing' i would really only consider empathy, thermal and pain to be 'healers' due to their wide range of healing powers (single target, and AoE healing)
Granted, i still find healing to be the last resort, and i really find +regen to be infinitly better then just straight healing, but for high burst unresistable damage very few things can beat a power boost absorb pain or that /pain equal. Just gotta make sure you hit some form of +regen on yourself, or else you'll die shortly after saving whoever you just saved
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Eh, lightning field scales with fury, but can not crit. Thats why damage auras are so much better on brutes. Also, while the recharge at base may be slightly better for scrappers, fury fueled spin is a wonderful thing. There is also the higher resistance and HP which matters a ton of /elec. Both in energy damage at base (90% on SOs) and with powersurge (90% everything but psi and toxic i think? on SOs) and with energize's +regen. Brutes have higher HP caps, and HP base, so energize will regenerate more HP (same %, but just higher actual numbers) with energize going then a scrapper would with the same power.
Claws/elec is just so much better on a brute due to the above reasons. -
Could you also post your UI there Dechs? I use a very different UI then most on my warshade (i think i've sent you a screenshot of it before) and i always wondered how people use those binds and other things to swap out powertrays on the fly.
My UI works for me, but its always nice to see how other people, especially you, actually runs their warshade.