paragon points refunds 24th aug cut off!!!!, legal possibilites?
By
Father Xmas,
Posted on: 2012-09-24 08:49 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Zwill is gone.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
My time has finally come.
This will be my final official communication as a member of Paragon Studios and a representative of NCsoft. I've made the decision to spend some time focusing on family and the job hunt, mostly family  . ... |
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=297553
Have a nice rant.
Talk to your credit card company talk to a lawyer best of luck with this. If you meet with success let us know, there's lots of people that would like a pound of NCsoft's flesh.
Email NCSoft support and explain your situation and ask for a refund. If they say they won't refund you, then go to the bank.
Help Dirk Knightly the freelance detective solve a case in Arc ID:368097
Flip side, game is still going until November 30th and the Paragon Market is still up and running and it appears that VIP tagged accounts is still getting their stipend so Paragon Points are still good.
There is probably some legal reason that establishes "gift card" sales purchased up to a week before of a "store's" closing must be refunded, no questions ask. I'm sure one of the reasons it took so long for us to get any information was NCSoft's legal team looking into what they MUST do under the law when it comes to purchased points.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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who would want to waste recently purchased points on a now worthless game?, I see no point personally wasting points for points sake. I care nothing to play the game out till the end and see no point in wasting anymore of my time doing so. the game was dead in my eyes the day they |
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Flip side, game is still going until November 30th and the Paragon Market is still up and running and it appears that VIP tagged accounts is still getting their stipend so Paragon Points are still good.
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ncsoft announced the news. I was passed onto billing but as to date had no response to date but guess it will be a generic reply anyway as they seem not to give a damn. Is there a direct email address they can be contacted by as the ingame system takes too long.
I made payments through paypal so maybe they are the 1st step
I dont take kindly to being ripped off by
ncsoft
The problem for you, as I see it, is that you spent money on a digital commodity and then recieved it from NCSoft. They held to the agreement implicit in putting things up for sale.
Don't get me wrong, your situation sucks, but I don't really see a reason legally speaking that they owe you anything. In fact, offering any refunds of points at all might be a gift (they may not have had to legally, I'm not sure).
Unfortunately, the fact that you choose not to make use of what you bought is on you... You still have the Points you bought. You not feeling like playing isn't a compelling reason to refund the money you spent months ago. *shrug* What I mean to say is that nothing is stopping you from using your purchases but you. Can you rightfully claim a refund for food served to you at a restaurant that you ordered but now refuse to eat (due to no fault of the restaurant)?
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
The problem for you, as I see it, is that you spent money on a digital commodity and then recieved it from NCSoft. They held to the agreement implicit in putting things up for sale.
Don't get me wrong, your situation sucks, but I don't really see a reason legally speaking that they owe you anything. In fact, offering any refunds of points at all might be a gift (they may not have had to legally, I'm not sure). Unfortunately, the fact that you choose not to make use of what you bought is on you... You still have the Points you bought. You not feeling like playing isn't a compelling reason to refund the money you spent months ago. *shrug* What I mean to say is that nothing is stopping you from using your purchases but you. Can you rightfully claim a refund for food served to you at a restaurant that you ordered but now refuse to eat (due to no fault of the restaurant)? |
how this situation can be likened to a restaurant is beyond me . surely anything sold should give value for money a reasonable/fair transaction based on facts provided by the company for future development is miss-leading & devious. Don't tell me that the closure was not in the pipeline for some time but they refused to make it public whilst they promised new content and lured people in under false illusions.my personal encounter has worsened as I just logged into paypal to look @ the transactions made to ncsoft & the total since june is
$319.65 on paragon points, as previously mentioned these where only purchased in good faith in light of development within the game. This makes me mad and I just cant allow them to get away with this
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Yeah... it was a horrible analogy. I freely admit that. Probably shoulda just left it out completely. |
Originally Posted by th1sisajoke
how this situation can be likened to a restaurant is beyond me . |
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| surely anything sold should give value for money |
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| Don't tell me that the closure was not in the pipeline for some time but they refused to make it public whilst they promised new content and lured people in under false illusions. |
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my personal encounter has worsened as I just logged into paypal to look @ the transactions made to ncsoft & the total since june is $319.65 on paragon points, as previously mentioned these where only purchased in good faith in light of development within the game. This makes me mad and I just cant allow them to get away with this
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It really does suck though.
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contractually he has exchanged consideration and so it was a valid contract.|
Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
It did. You bought Points, you got them.
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Value for money is a different matter but not one that contract law will help with.
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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven
To a point I have to agree with you here. However, the Development and announcements thereof were by Paragon Studios not NCSoft. NCSoft dropped a bomb on the studio laying off all of the staff and closing the studio (CoH with it). It is possible that the decision was made rather quickly, and until I hear otherwise from reputable sources I see no reason to assume "devious" intent... benefit of the doubt and all that.
You might have a case, I don't know. My gut says you don't. Caveat emptor, etc. It really does suck though. |
In that case he would be entitled to a refund of the cost of your purchase and possibly other reasonable costs. - Phone calls, postage the fax charge to request a refund etc.
In any event according to the EULA the OP can notify NCSoft by faxing a notice to their Brighton office to notify them that he wishes to terminate his contract with them. They then as stated in the EULA (section 2b iirc)must refund any outstanding game time and unspent NCCoin.
Note this does refer to the EU EULA as the OP mentioned making a purchase in Sterling. I haven't looked at the NA one recently so the refund clauses in that may differ for other players.
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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already tried I called Brighton office but they are not able to deal with anything apparently and that If any issues to contact the web based support, who it seems are not reading the content of my message and putting a the generic link |
Originally Posted by Gaia
NCSoft by faxing a notice to their Brighton office to notify them that he wishes to terminate his contract with them. They then as stated in the EULA (section 2b iirc)must refund any outstanding game time and unspent NCCoin.
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http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/p...tus_update.phpapparently there is no email address either to deal with complaints direct with
ncsoftQuote:
| They then as stated in the EULA (section 2b iirc)must refund any outstanding game time and unspent NCCoin |
I believe this game closure has been in the pipeline for months before it was announced they have taken advantage and capitalized & basically played games with our money knowingly using loop holes & time constraints to wiggle out of what they can to gain maximum profits. Again giving us "the player" The biggest middle finger imaginable
Well this may apply to this discussion.
Of course there's that pesky little section in the EULA that you agreed to every time you played the game since Freedom came out.
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Subsection (vii) will be the sticky bit with any legal challenge, especially the "no right to a refund" line.|
(d) Paragon Points - You may obtain Paragon Points from NCsoft (or a third party authorized by NCsoft) for use in connection with the Game. Paragon Points is a virtual currency which you may, at NCsoft's sole and absolute discretion, exchange for Items, services or to access other specific forms of Content not otherwise available without Paragon Points. The Items, services or to access other specific forms of Content offered by NCsoft in exchange for Paragon Points may be discontinued, modified or removed from the Account by NCsoft at any time in its sole and absolute discretion. (i)NCsoft may, in its sole and absolute discretion, determine the availability of Paragon Points with respect to any Account, the time period applicable to such availability, and the availability and time period applicable to any Item or other specific forms of Content not otherwise available without Paragon Points, including but not limited to Item characteristics or characteristics related to a Character ID such as gender changes, server changes, inventory space, slots, skills, skill packs, pets or titles. (ii)NCsoft may, in its sole and absolute discretion, require You to pay for Paragon Points and establish the timing and form in which such payment must be made, including but not limited to credit cards or online payment services. (iii)If Paragon Points is made available for the Game, each Paragon Points related to an Account will be deleted immediately upon termination of such Account or as such Paragon Points is exchanged (in the order which such Paragon Points were obtained) as required to use an Item or to access other specific forms of Content not otherwise available without Paragon Points. You have no rights in or to any Paragon Points whether associated with the Account or otherwise, and NCsoft may delete Paragon Points from the Account for any reason, including without limitation your failure to comply with this Agreement. (iv)If Paragon Points is made available to You for the Game, in quantities determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCsoft. Paragon Points may only be available for purchase in a few denominations. You are responsible for any taxes that may result from Your participation in the Paragon Points service. (v)NCsoft may also choose, in its sole and absolute discretion, to make any quantity of Paragon Points available in connection with any Account on a limited and promotional basis, including but not limited to Your attendance at events, virtual or otherwise, as well as occasional gifts from NCsoft or third-parties (collectively, "Promotional Paragon Points"). Paragon Points/Promotional Paragon Points will be deducted from such Account on a first in, first out basis. (vi)NCsoft may in its sole and absolute discretion choose to make available Paragon Points only for those Accounts in compliance with all provisions of this agreement, and to limit the amount of Paragon Points - including Promotional Paragon Points - that may be obtained in connection with an Account, for any reason or for no reason whatsoever. (vii)You acknowledge that Paragon Points is digital material with no cash value, that no interest is paid or earned with respect to Paragon Points, that Paragon Points is not personal property, that the quantity of Paragon Points in Your Account may be increased or decreased by NCsoft in its sole and absolute discretion for any reason or no reason whatsoever, that You have no right to a refund related to Paragon Points, that there is no right to transfer or exchange Paragon Points, and that NCsoft may limit Your license to use Paragon Points with respect to any Item / Content or time period related thereto. You further acknowledge that additional restrictions related to Paragon Points, as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of NCsoft, may be applicable if, and when, Paragon Points is made available to You or thereafter. NCsoft may restrict the award or use of Paragon Points based on Your country of residence or other factors. |
Unfair? Okay I'll give you that. Illegal, actionable in court? Probably not.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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The EULA does specifically say "Fax" and not Phone or email it does also point to the support site as another contact method.|
Originally Posted by th1sisajoke
already tried I called Brighton office but they are not able to deal with anything apparently and that If any issues to contact the web based support, who it seems are not reading the content of my message and putting a the generic link
http://na.cityofheroes.com/en/news/p...tus_update.phpapparently there is no email address either to deal with complaints direct with ncsoft |
Those are the two contact methods which are explicitely present within the contract you and they have entered into.
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Originally Posted by th1sisajoke
my issue is with both spent & unspent, buying additional storage e.t.c for characters. I see no reason they should pocket my money or anyone else money for that matter for something they should have been more clear about. no-one in there right mind would spend money on something they would not get substantial use from, Its not as though points comes cheap anyway.
I believe this game closure has been in the pipeline for months before it was announced they have taken advantage and capitalized & basically played games with our money knowingly using loop holes & time constraints to wiggle out of what they can to gain maximum profits. Again giving us "the player" The biggest middle finger imaginable |
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
Quote:
Ever think that some of those strange people in the SaveCoH movement might actually succeed?|
Originally Posted by th1sisajoke
who would want to waste recently purchased points on a now worthless game?, I see no point personally wasting points for points sake. I care nothing to play the game out till the end and see no point in wasting anymore of my time doing so. the game was dead in my eyes the day they
ncsoft announced the news. |
We have not heard a final "Yeah. Sorry. We tried, but no deal." from Paragon.
As for the point refund cutoff date. NCSoft had to set some kind of cutoff date. I'm willing to bet that several lawyers had a chance to rake them over the coals for their opinions on the most advantageous, but still legal date.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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NCCoin isn't a purchased currency that was used by Paragon Studios. NCSoft was very careful to keep NCCoin seperate from what gets used by it's subsidiary companies games. |
Originally Posted by Gaia
Spent points I believe you will find difficult to get a court to order a refund for. Unspent will likely come down to how the court interprets the definition given for NCCoin.
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Q: If I am a City of Heroes: Freedom™ player, can I use Paragon Points™ to buy items in the Black Cloud Marketplace A: No, Paragon Points and NCoin are not interchangeable. Q: If I purchase NCoin on my Lineage® II Game Account, can I use the NCoin to buy items in the Black Cloud Marketplace? A: If you have merged your accounts using the NC Account platform, your NCoin wallet is now shared between Aion and Lineage II! If you are still using the NCsoft Master Account, then you must choose which game to apply your NCoin to. |
It's quite obvious that this was run thru their legal department before implementing it because only games owned directly by NCSoft can use NCCoin.
Arenanet uses Gems
Paragon Studios used Paragon Points
Good luck trying to convince a judge in a small claims court that they are the same thing. Heck good luck trying to get any money back beyond what NCSoft has acknowledged they will refund.
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A company the size of NCSoft most likely has a legal department on retainer to handle such trivialities.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
As for the point refund cutoff date. NCSoft had to set some kind of cutoff date. I'm willing to bet that several lawyers had a chance to rake them over the coals for their opinions on the most advantageous, but still legal date.
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Like I said.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
A company the size of NCSoft most likely has a legal department on retainer to handle such trivialities.
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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The coal raking doesn't start until it's decided to go to court over something. This is just standard busy work with a standard fee.
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Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Like I said.
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Well, NCSOFT have issued refund on paragon points from the start of Jul 2012 $212 refunded, which is some way in recompense. I still feel that we have all been deceived and they knew earlier this year it was going to close.
Dropping a bombshell as they did stating @ such short notice that the game was going to close knowing that most people would react badly was bad enough for any of us to swallow.Surely this has been on the cards for some time & more notice should/could have been given but for
ncsoft
to take liberties as they have in stating unrealistic cut off's for paragon points of the 24th August, would anyone really buy points or wasted vast amounts of money on a game if it was closing!!
ncsoft
whilst they rub there hands and basically give players the middle finger.
ncsoft
have been unrealistic in dealing fairly with refunds and set out things that best suit there pockets.
does anyone know our legal rights in relation to refunds??? as those points were purchased in good faith with i24 under development which as it happens now was mis-leading info
I started to purchase vast paragon points back in June for the future as the upcoming work that was being done on the game, from July alone I spent £112.00/$181.00 on points in view of the upcoming updates, kind of an investment for the future, but for them to pluck the 24th of august as a cut off point is a complete and utter joke I find it disgusting and I know I'm not on my own here & there are many people in the same position.
they set the apparent closure of game as Nov 30th, is that showing that they are allowing reasonable/fair time to elapse for use of points e.t.c????, some form of legal requirement!!?
because if it is that does not wash with me as I know many people do not play it anymore from the initial announcement & frankly as a result of the closure I cannot find the drive to even log into account & get any enjoyment out of it. the way I see it is purely wasted money & a lot of it also, lining the pockets of
To Zwill as you seem the only real point of contact or have limited access to the powers that be can you tell me how & where to go in relation to a complaint.
I will not give up on the fight for this and no-one else should either @ the end of the day
I cannot bring myself to be pleasant about the game even though I should be as I've had some good times but money talks