I hate to say this...but, I think it's really over for our beloved game.

Oh I got it, without your opinion they would suffer in ignorance, and if they don't get it fast enough why should you be polite ?

In case you haven't noticed I have no problem with being confrontational. It's the part where you can't own up to being wrong that makes you a jackass.

Fair enough, got better poo ?

Hardly. I may attack other posters arguments, but I believe I am very good about not attacking the poster unless they start making it personal. Of course, some posters have a hard time separating the idea of someone attacking their argument from that of someone attacking them personally.

I've pointed out how your very early forays into this thread involved rather passive-aggressive ad hominem attacks on other posters. I notice you haven't responded to that in the least.

There's a whole lot of burden of proof missing here. For me to own up to being wrong, someone needs to offer something that at least makes it look like that might be the case. So far, you have made only one specific claim to try and make such a case about anything I've said, and it was trivially shot down. Try harder.

Unh hunh. I think you have defined yourself pretty well in this thread.

VIP access to the forums, $0-30 prior to Sept 19.
Seeing a self-professed forum dodger being the very thing they purport to hate: priceless.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?

Or WHY YOU MAD BRO ?

Simple: I'm not doing that. I think your accusations are ridiculous. You think my eyes are planks. I know my eyes just are unfamiliar to you.

Of course, if that's sawdust in your eyes, I also think you ought to get checked for termites.

People often confuse dogged responses with high emotions. It's silly. I'm not mad. I'm just stubborn.

That is why you just wrote the abridged version of war and peace, to defend yourself to a random guy on the internet ? Stubborn ? more like insecure.

Tenacious? Bored? Business as usual?

Ah, and door number three wins again.

I'd just like to point out, PPC, that you have at this point passed arguing about the argument, and are now arguing about the argument that was about the argument.

Welcome to the forums. Ever play a Scrapper?

Yeah... and we should all have so much faith in your (or pretty much anyone's) ability to judge other people based on a text medium. At least Fan and I have been arguing for years, literally. Forgive me if I don't assume Johnny-come-lately knows what he's talking about, especially when he refuses to say anything quantitative.

(By the way, want to expand on the correlation between writing the abridged version of war and peace and being insecure? I bet it'll be fascinating.)

Trust me, if I was insecure, I wouldn't be jumping with both feet into stuff like the threads I've linked here. Or this one.

So, are you going to just stick to the sound bites, or are you actually going to try and make some defensible arguments about why I was factually wrong in that old thread, or even in this thread. Repeating that I was wrong every third post or so doesn't make it true. So far this is more like one of those "no, you" arguments that my kid cousins get into than an actual argument. You don't happen to be 12 years old, do you?

I laughed in real life thanks.

You got me, Scrappers were my favorites before you could make blue side Brutes.

Ooh. I have formulas showing the equivalency for a given time-to-defeat. Shall I go get them?

I just call em like I see em.

You're the one who thought your argument with fan was some sort of monumental achievement and blew up when told you both look like dorks.

Citation needed.

What I seem to recall is him referencing the argument, and my begging him to go there because of how that ended up going at the time.

Citation needed. After your last shot at quoting me, I'm curious to see how this one goes.

To spill my 2 cents:

Back in 2008 (I think) when Paragon Studios was hiring I remember asking some dev what the salary was. He was not 100% certain and I can’t remember myself with 100% accuracy, but think he stated along:

40-60k/y entry level
Bout 80k/y seasoned designer.

No clue about management roles but those are just a handful.

The 60k I remember clearly because I remember thinking it would have been a downgrade for me even if I got the topmost of that range. The bottom line may have been 10k lower but I think it was about 40k, not 30k.

I am not sure how Paragon handled it, but game Q&A tends to be a very harsh job. The average I have seen is about $12 an hour, with non-warranted 40 hour weeks. For Paragon Studios, I'm sure hours were more standard but I doubt salary was much higher.

Do keep in mind that the game industry is infamous for underpaying people for the same skills any other industry would pay an arm and a leg for, taking advantage of developers extreme desire to make games for a living.

I was going to make a laughing and gloating post, but yours is the better idea.

I can't speak as much to the hours or even the salary, but I've had a couple of friends in Q&A jobs for game companies, and from what I was told, their benefits were pretty much crap, too. I'd be surprised if the usual rule of thumb to double their base salary to get their total cost to the employer was that good of a measure in their case.

Again, we don't know what it was like at Paragon Studios, I'm just speaking in general.