What Down Does NcSoft Own In Terms of COH Tech?

Here's what I mean: I know the IP, the characters, the Lore, all belong to NCSoft.

The Engine is licensed from Cryptic (though Paragon Studios surely made a number of modifications to it the original designers never envisioned.)

But what about things like Super Sidekicking? Inventions? The Store Bought Travel Powers like Ninja Run, the animal transformations, etc? The Incarnate System?

If the Devs behind Paragon managed to reorganize in some shape or form-- or a number of them went to work for another studio-- or a third party studio wanted to use something similar-- how much of that tech could they use in a new game?

A lot of the tech ideas are hard to copyright because they're so basic to games in general, not just MMOs - they can copyright the names of the systems, but trying to make the systems themselves exclusively theirs is a lost cause.

No code/animations/artwork could be directly used, because that belongs to NCSoft (modifications to the engine depend on the exact terms of the agreement).

But, unless NCSoft patented those things (which I seriously doubt), anybody else could implement their own take on those things. Exactly what the Devs can do depends on their contracts, but they likely could go on to implement those systems/things again from scratch.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Golden Girl A lot of the tech ideas are hard to copyright becasue they're so basic to games in gerneal, not just MMOs - they can copyright the names of the systems, but trying to make the systems themselves exclusively theirs is a lost cause.

You mean trademark the names, not copyright. Copyright covers specific implementations (i.e. I could write my own solitaire game and I'd own the copyright, even if it's absurdly simple). Patents would cover the idea (if someone patented how solitaire works, they could control whether anyone else could make a game that implements those rules). And then there's trademark, which has more so to do with protecting products from others trying to trick people into thinking one product is actually another, or some how associated with it (covering the name is the most common case, but the look of the product can fall under trade dress).

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.

I have no insider information, but my guess is that the actual lines of code and resource files that implement CoH features are probably owned by NCSoft.

Exactly correct. Any and all code belongs to NCSoft. Also, all artwork. And any created just for the game sound. As well as the copyright of the mission texts, and the coding to make them happen.

Basically, everything in the game is theirs, with these notable exceptions:

Your character's or characters lore.
Your character's or characters specific assembly instructions.
The assembly instructions of any Mission Architect arc you created, as well as any lore you wrote for it.
Any custom character(s) lore or assembly instructions for any MA arc.

With these exceptions, everything... **EVERYTHING**... else is either theirs, open source, or a couple of other outfits such, as Cryptic, and you can't have it unless you buy the whole kit and kaboodle.

'You' there being any entity that wants it, that is. Not YOU... you can't afford it anyway, yeah?

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In reading the Agreement between you and NCSoft, there is wording that indicates that YOU allow THEM to use your creation(s) as they see fit.

The wording also... well... sort of... kinda maybe... implies that you do have rights to these creations, as listed above. The specific words in the agreement are "To the extent you claim rights to..." Which clearly, in legalese, says that no matter what came before or since, you have a claimable right on something the game has in it.

But what is that? The categories above. Basically, copyrightable BY YOU information.

The character's lore... its background, aka, the Bio. YOU made this. YOU own it. YOU get to keep it and YOU get to use it as YOU see fit. You simply also agreed that THEY can use it however THEY see fit... but YOU OWN IT.

Now, apply this to the mechanical portion... You made the character using their pieces. You created a look for this character. THAT IS COPYRIGHTABLE.

The pieces themselves, however, are not. ONLY the information needed to create the assemblage of the character's various pieces are owned by You. This includes the colors, the sizes, possibly the placement (if it can be moved, that is) and the particular pieces and art out of the library they allow you to choose from.

This assemblage data IS YOURS. You get to keep it. How? I dunno. And how can you use it? Again, no clue. But you can haz it all you wantz.

Now apply these concepts to the Mission Architect and the custom critters you can make, and those are yours too.

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In other words, if you can print it out as a description, text, or instructions, that is a copyrightable, owned by you with full rights "thing", no matter what the creative process/engine used to make it with. In this case, the City of Heroes Engine is used to make these creations 'work'.

And in this respect, NCSOFT has no obligation to keep the Engine working for you to use the creations... but sure, you can have them. Enjoy.

:|

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I've been reading the agreement a little, but I'm not fully done with analyzing it. There may be something that, while I'm not sure would work, might stop the closure. Possibly. WAY TOO PREMATURE TO SAY, DON'T ASK. Won't save the studio. Just save the ability to use the characters by keeping the servers alive.

But seriously, SERIOUSLY... DO NOT hope on this. It's just something, an angle, and I'm not even sure it's possible to do. Legalese is interesting stuff, and interpreting it is... tough. Especially since...

>>>IANAL.<<<

So take all that up there with a small grain of salt. But I published software, and code copyright in the states is what it is. We own the character's traits, it would seem. Ditto MA arcs and critters traits. But that's about it. NCSOft owns the rest, and we explicitly allow them to do with our stuff whatever they see fit, including deletion if need be.

And that last is... well, the nail that will sink my possible idea, but... I'm going to explore it anyway. The wording on the 'delete/modify' is pretty explicit regarding a breach of agreement in regards to a few specific factors... none of which apply, ostensibly, to what's going on with the closure.... Let ya know laters when I figure it out, if that's possible.

Mike

If you notice, right before it says the bit about licensing the stuff to them, it says that you agree you don't own any of that stuff in the first place. The next section is a failsafe that says if you can't actually agree to that (there's some places where you can't, I believe Germany is one such country), then you give them all the following rights.

If there is any possibility of a case (I'd say no), it'd certainly need to be in a country where you weren't able to sign over your copyrights to them. The US allows you to completely transfer your copyrights, so I'm pretty sure no one from there could even attempt to challenge it, as the section doesn't apply to them.

EULAs are generally always designed to fail gracefully, so you'll often see multiple portions covering a single thing.

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.

I assume they own

All costumes
All character models
All missions
All zones
All animations
All power sets

While the engine from Cryptic is merely the framework the game is built on, all content built with or on top of that framework is NCSoft's.

Not tryin' to open a can-o-worms here, but this was makin' the rounds at CoHTitan:

http://www.cohtitan.com/forum/index....ic,5228.0.html

And it's pretty clear what I thought/read/interpreted is true: We *do* own stuff. Not NCSoft.

We don't own the artwork. But we own the assembly process that lets our characters look like they do. We own the Bios. We own our mission texts, and the makeup of our missions.

And without the game client... how can we use this?

A Legality I don't even know how to begin to talk about... this was the bit I was workin' on, but was tryin' to be sure that I had it right in my head... even though I spouted off on that earlier.

I don't wish to start a fire, but... perhaps a smouldering possible... perhaps an injunction is A Thing that needs to be investigated by someone way more lawyerly that I. NCSoft can't prevent our using the engine if we have copyrightable, usable characters... maybe. I dunno. Just a thought.

I'm gonna go off into the corner and rock now. My head hurts...

Mike

Just because you have something under copyright, doesn't mean you're entitled to be able to 'use' it (copyright really doesn't even cover use!). Take for example if you wrote a piece of software that included a library (which is fundamental to the working of the application) written by another entity, which you had licensed to be able to use for 5 years. You release the software you wrote (which is tightly coupled to said library) and it's used for many years by many people. You most certainly own the copyright to the part of the software you wrote, even if the copyright to the library is owned by another entity.

Once the 5 years is up, for some reason you or the other entity decide to not renew the license (why is unimportant)... what happens? You still own the copyright to the code you wrote, but, you can no longer use that library... which means your application is completely and totally non-functional. Just because you own the copyright to your code, and your code doesn't work without their library, that does not mean you're in any way, shape, or form entitled to continue using their library (nor are you entitled to any form of compensation/recompense).

That's the situation AE/costumes are in. The options in this case are basically the same as my hypothetical situation: either convince the other entity to return to the old setup (or something akin), or reimplement the missing functionality (write an engine for hosting AE / showing your costumes). The latter part, though is still potentially messy, as your AE/costumes might be considered derived work of NCSoft's copyrights, which gets you into extremely expensive lawyer territory.

We've been saving Paragon City for eight and a half years. It's time to do it one more time.