The Best Time of My Life
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-09-02 22:42 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Quote:
It was working until not long ago, so I'm guessing something broke it. I wonder if the right hammer would unstick it. IASAL (I abuse software a lot)
|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
I'm sure it could have been added in without too much damage. IANAD (I Am Not A Dev).
|
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Quote:
Odds are it's something that no one internally noticed was broken, or cared enough to do anything about. Demorecord wasn't a highly used functionality, so any fixes or enhancements had to be prioritized. For example, I noticed that powers customization on the Umbra Beast didn't work properly in demorecord, but fixing it would have required having a coder take a deeper look at what the underlying issue was, and they were at that time swamped with trying to get I22 out.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It was working until not long ago, so I'm guessing something broke it. I wonder if the right hammer would unstick it. IASAL (I abuse software a lot)
|
That was probably one of the most consistent challenges we all had to deal with, acknowledging the trade-offs that every decision required. Pretty much every idea was a great idea, except for the terrible ideas. But time and resources were rarely on our side.
-Hosun "Black Pebble" Lee
Help me beat Dr. Aeon! Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/hosunl
Quote:
That. Is. Awesome.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
To answer my own question: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bzekKQobB0
And its been there for a while apparently, not just in I24. |
This makes me really sad that I don't have more demos of various things. I'm glad Justice is still being active about a lot of stuff. It gives me a chance to..
So, uh, how does one activate it?.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I'm really missing audio. I'm actually beginning to wonder if [sound] can be hacked back in.
|
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
True story, when I started using demorecord, I was told that audio not being recorded was a feature, not a bug.
-Hosun "Black Pebble" Lee
Help me beat Dr. Aeon! Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/hosunl
Quote:
Uummm...|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
True story, when I started using demorecord, I was told that audio not being recorded was a feature, not a bug.
|
Didn't *you* know that all bugs were considered features by Posi? O.o
"If I fail, they write me off as another statistic. If I succeed, they pay me a million bucks to fly out to Hollywood and fart." --- George A. Romero
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Quote:
Not sure how new it is, but "demopause 1" at the demo console pauses playback, which Arcana was asking if it was possible.|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
A lot of hidden demorecord functionality was rediscovered around I24, including detached camera control (which now worked outside of demorecord). Audio was not one of them. Mostly because it never occurred to me to ask.
|
It actually takes a frame number, so you can pause at a specific frame from the command line if you want, but if you specify a frame number that has already played then it just freezes it where you currently are.
Quote:
o.o|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
True story, when I started using demorecord, I was told that audio not being recorded was a feature, not a bug.
|
Does it actually need to record audio events? Or does it just record effects references that the engine (mostly) plays back as if it were being told they were happening in normal play? I would have thought the latter, which would mean the sounds playback would mostly be baked into the effects playback. But that's all assumption, I haven't looked at the guts of a demo file in a very long time.
I could see a powers-effects-centric recording losing environmental stuff like footfalls, doors opening, and elevators dinging. (Which would suck, but be better than nothing).
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
You can also hit P.
|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
Not sure how new it is, but "demopause 1" at the demo console pauses playback, which Arcana was asking if it was possible.
It actually takes a frame number, so you can pause at a specific frame from the command line if you want, but if you specify a frame number that has already played then it just freezes it where you currently are. |
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Quote:
Demorecords do not record audio. The game client infers audio from the event information in the demorecords. It was definitely working up to the mid-teens of issues, and then somewhere in there it broke. But there's no reason for the game client to not play back sound in a demo playback, and its probably due to someone breaking it one day and not bothering to fix it.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
o.o
Does it actually need to record audio events? Or does it just record effects references that the engine (mostly) plays back as if it were being told they were happening in normal play? I would have thought the latter, which would mean the sounds playback would mostly be baked into the effects playback. But that's all assumption, I haven't looked at the guts of a demo file in a very long time. I could see a powers-effects-centric recording losing environmental stuff like footfalls, doors opening, and elevators dinging. (Which would suck, but be better than nothing). |
If its a really old demorecord or something that doesn't use very new art assets, you could play it back with an older client to get the sound. I don't know how many versions of the client are floating around out there, nor am I certain which versions I might have in backups. Someone gave me a copy of I10 and I17 recently though, and I have confirmed the I10 client plays back with sound (it also borks my graphics settings a bit because it doesn't understand the new ultramode settings and resets them in the registry, forcing me to reset them back when I switch back to the live client).
Hilariously, if you try to play back something like a Magi trial with the Issue 10 client, you actually get the sound, but the graphics and animations are so borked the playback turns into a studdering scrambled mess. But you get the sound.
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So, no one has answered or talked about my earlier question...
Is there a way to either see your current CAM POS and PYR settings during demo playback and/or is there a way to actually edit/save demos during demo playback?
I'm vastly unfamiliar with demo playback commands (and to most of the demo editor programs' functionalities), because I generally just edit everything in notepad. So, I might be missing something obvious...
Just would be great if I could swing the camera around in demo playback (as we can do now with F2) and then be able to grab those particular camera POS and PYR numbers so I can find and use just the right camera angle through this functionality (as opposed to adjusting the numbers and checking back repeatedly until I have it just right... or "close enough").
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
You know I know the score when it comes to developmental practical realities, so I say this not so much as a critique of the devs as my own personal take on the situation.|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
Odds are it's something that no one internally noticed was broken, or cared enough to do anything about. Demorecord wasn't a highly used functionality, so any fixes or enhancements had to be prioritized. For example, I noticed that powers customization on the Umbra Beast didn't work properly in demorecord, but fixing it would have required having a coder take a deeper look at what the underlying issue was, and they were at that time swamped with trying to get I22 out.
That was probably one of the most consistent challenges we all had to deal with, acknowledging the trade-offs that every decision required. Pretty much every idea was a great idea, except for the terrible ideas. But time and resources were rarely on our side. |
If you look at all the games out there that have survived past ten years old and still have a significant player population, it seems to me that 90% of them share at least one of two traits:
1. They are a blood sport in Korea
2. They are platforms.
In my opinion, and I fully appreciate the limitations the devs were operating under, not making the AE and the demorecord-based features an extremely high priority were errors. The AE and demorecord, developed properly, were our keys to immortality.
I once calculated that a well-optimized demorecord system could probably capture the entire leveling path of the average character from level 1 to level 50 in under a gigabyte of storage. Imagine if everyone could go back and look at anything they ever did since the beginning of time. From any angle. Share comic-book like moments with their friends on Facebook in full rendered video. Stage video events and stream them from within the game.
That was well within our grasp, and that doesn't even count the possibilities related to machinima. How hard would it have been to market the game around those capabilities? I'm not the biggest fan of social media in the world, but if you could tweet an event in CoH, and with a link another player could see what that player was looking at fully rendered? What would that have been worth?
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Quote:
As far as I know so far, no. (the obvious - /loc in the demo cmd window - doesn't seem to work)|
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
So, no one has answered or talked about my earlier question...
Is there a way to either see your current CAM POS and PYR settings during demo playback |
Quote:
| and/or is there a way to actually edit/save demos during demo playback? |
Quote:
| Just would be great if I could swing the camera around in demo playback (as we can do now with F2) and then be able to grab those particular camera POS and PYR numbers so I can find and use just the right camera angle through this functionality (as opposed to adjusting the numbers and checking back repeatedly until I have it just right... or "close enough"). |
This is all very new to me, so I'm still exploring what's possible. At the moment, I don't know how to do what you're angling to do. But I don't yet know that its impossible yet. It may take some time to figure out one way or the other.
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Thanks!|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
As far as I know so far, no. (the obvious - /loc in the demo cmd window - doesn't seem to work)
No. Yes. This is all very new to me, so I'm still exploring what's possible. At the moment, I don't know how to do what you're angling to do. But I don't yet know that its impossible yet. It may take some time to figure out one way or the other. |
I wasn't sure if it was just something that most everyone already knew how to do but me, hehe.
In that case, I'll keep looking as well.
It's not as though this feature isn't great without what I was looking for, but there's nothing like taking a camera and moving it around to find the right shot. Of course, if I did more of my shooting with live action, instead of typing it all in there, I guess I'd get to do that more often!
Oh... and the pausing? Oh my!!!! That's insanely great!
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
Quote:
Man, that one feature would shave so much downtime from my comic-creation... dammit!
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Playback a demorecord with the beta client. As far as I've tested, this only works on the beta client.
Then hit F2. Try using wasd or moving the mouse. Then hit F2 again. |
The more I read this thread, the more I want to cry.
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
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MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Quote:
Its also ironic that for the most part I left the machinima aspects City of Heroes to the real artists because there was plenty enough to do elsewhere and there was lots of time to eventually look at it. Now that there isn't a lot of time left there's so much potential I want to investigate in the system, and its taking up the bulk of my attention now. I may find myself actually spending more time with the game after November 30th when I can no longer long into it.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
The more I read this thread, the more I want to cry.
Michelle aka Samuraiko/Dark_Respite |
Its oddly exciting in a way that the sunset of the game has freed me to look at aspects of the game I've always been interested in but never had the time to explore.
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Quote:
I'm going to sound horribly selfish for saying this, but I am so glad you never really got around to it. To discover that you are anywhere near as talented a machinima artist as you are a math god would have crushed my self-confidence flat and I'd have probably stopped making videos on the spot.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Its also ironic that for the most part I left the machinima aspects City of Heroes to the real artists because there was plenty enough to do elsewhere and there was lots of time to eventually look at it. Now that there isn't a lot of time left there's so much potential I want to investigate in the system, and its taking up the bulk of my attention now. I may find myself actually spending more time with the game after November 30th when I can no longer long into it.
Its oddly exciting in a way that the sunset of the game has freed me to look at aspects of the game I've always been interested in but never had the time to explore. |
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Shifting topics a bit.
I can't quite indulge an AMA, and there's a lot I cannot answer (which you guys can probably guess what those are), but if y'all have any business or marketing related questions for COH that you want to get off your chest, feel free to toss the, in this thread. I'll do my best to answer what I can.
Please be sensitive of the topics that can be addressed. I'd like to have an educational, interesting conversation with you guys. I don't want to have that colored with negativity, conspiracies, or chest-thumping.
Though I would like to point out that Sean "Dr. Aeon" McCann and I are competing for the most # of twitter followers.....and if I were ahead of him, it'd sure make it easier for me to remember things....
https://twitter.com/hosunl
-Hosun "Black Pebble" Lee
Help me beat Dr. Aeon! Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/hosunl
Hm. I'm not sure if this falls on the verboten side, so feel free to ignore it if so. If nothing else, it seems potentially ... charged, no matter what the actual answer, so it may be best considered off-limits, even if you're allowed to answer it.
The super blunt version of the question would probably be "how profitable was CoH?" The more qualitative, possibly more answerable version would be more like "how was CoH doing in terms of carrying its own financial weight"?
I mostly ask because there's lots of player base speculation, folks debating whether the sunset decision was driven by clear-cut loss making by Paragon Studios. Given how much you guys seemed to have grown in staff lately, that seems an odd possibility, unless maybe was speculative scale up done in preparation for returns that didn't materialize. But then again, comparing what we think we know of revenues for PS relative to its staff size, net revenues might have been pretty tight.
Anything along those lines you can reveal, even in broad terms?
Edit: My first ever FPARN. (Which may jinx my odds of answer even more!)
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
FPAUG (First Post After UberGuy)|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Hm. I'm not sure if this falls on the verboten side, so feel free to ignore it if so. If nothing else, it seems potentially ... charged, no matter what the actual answer, so it may be best considered off-limits, even if you're allowed to answer it.
...... |
I think it'd be best to avoid all questions such as the above for now. I do see there are active debates on it, but I don't think I'm in a position to resolve those.
-Hosun "Black Pebble" Lee
Help me beat Dr. Aeon! Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/hosunl
Quote:
Oh, what the hell.|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
Shifting topics a bit.
I can't quite indulge an AMA, and there's a lot I cannot answer (which you guys can probably guess what those are), but if y'all have any business or marketing related questions for COH that you want to get off your chest, feel free to toss the, in this thread. I'll do my best to answer what I can. Please be sensitive of the topics that can be addressed. I'd like to have an educational, interesting conversation with you guys. I don't want to have that colored with negativity, conspiracies, or chest-thumping. Though I would like to point out that Sean "Dr. Aeon" McCann and I are competing for the most # of twitter followers.....and if I were ahead of him, it'd sure make it easier for me to remember things.... https://twitter.com/hosunl |
Why didn't COH advertise more? It's one thing if you have to hire outside help to do a bunch of stuff, but if you're that good at demorecording and whatnot, and licensing music is actually pretty cheap if you know where to go... I just can't see why you wouldn't have been doing ads as often as possible. Even for the holiday events or "Who Will Die" or whatever, just to keep the playerbase psyched.
The reason I ask this is because if a schmuck like me could do them (even while holding down a 9-5 job in the meantime) with no budget, I can only imagine what you could have done even with what limited resources you had (which were more than mine).
(It didn't have to be all the uber-fancy CGI stuff like the original cinematic or CoV trailer or GOING ROGUE, just stuff shot in-game.)
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Quote:
The main reason for it comes down to resources.|
Originally Posted by Dark_Respite
Oh, what the hell.
Why didn't COH advertise more? It's one thing if you have to hire outside help to do a bunch of stuff, but if you're that good at demorecording and whatnot, and licensing music is actually pretty cheap if you know where to go... I just can't see why you wouldn't have been doing ads as often as possible. Even for the holiday events or "Who Will Die" or whatever, just to keep the playerbase psyched. ..... |
I am the marketing department. There are no legions of minions at my beck and call. It's a pretty lean operation.
Until 3 weeks ago, I spent 12+ hours each day at the studio. I could go into details, but there's a lot that needs to be done on a daily or weekly basis. Every screenshot I make means it's time spent away from doing this week's sales analysis, and truthfully, making screenshots and videos isn't really a great use of my time. It's fun, but they don't bring in a lot of revenue.
Why don't we hire someone to do that? Resources again. It's non-trivial to bring on additional marketing resources. We've all wanted additional internal resources for creative production and other projects, but that means that's one fewer designer, artist or engineer we can bring on. And Paragon is a studio that's led by the exceptional development team.
We have engaged in advertising throughout the years. We've done print ads, site takeovers, banner ads. We also regularly do less obvious things such as paid keyword searches. These all have varying degrees of effectiveness. At the end of the day though, it still comes down to a return on investment, because every expense needs to be justified.
If we spend $X producing a trailer, will it bring us $X+Y in new subscriptions and sales? If we spend $Z producing tv commercials, can we prove that those commercials bring us $Z+Y in revenues?
When you're launching a brand new game, you don't need to be as diligent about answering those questions. For an established game, however, there is far less flexibility.
Any perceived lack of advertising was never due to skepticism or a lack of desire on our part. If the resources were there, every Issue release would have been accompanied by full-age ads in every magazine and comic book. We'd have had multiple trailers and even TV buys. And there'd have been much more fanfare and hoopla.
Paragon Studio was a small studio, but we consistently produced incredible work that far larger studios couldn't even hope to match. I think an unintended consequence of that was that we gave the impression that we were much bigger than we actually were. We just managed to do a lot more with a lot less.
-Hosun "Black Pebble" Lee
Help me beat Dr. Aeon! Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/hosunl
Quote:
I have been trying to get a real answer to that question for years. Now THERE is an answer I can understand and respect. Thank you.|
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
The main reason for it comes down to resources.
I am the marketing department. There are no legions of minions at my beck and call. It's a pretty lean operation. Until 3 weeks ago, I spent 12+ hours each day at the studio. I could go into details, but there's a lot that needs to be done on a daily or weekly basis. Every screenshot I make means it's time spent away from doing this week's sales analysis, and truthfully, making screenshots and videos isn't really a great use of my time. It's fun, but they don't bring in a lot of revenue. Why don't we hire someone to do that? Resources again. It's non-trivial to bring on additional marketing resources. We've all wanted additional internal resources for creative production and other projects, but that means that's one fewer designer, artist or engineer we can bring on. And Paragon is a studio that's led by the exceptional development team. We have engaged in advertising throughout the years. We've done print ads, site takeovers, banner ads. We also regularly do less obvious things such as paid keyword searches. These all have varying degrees of effectiveness. At the end of the day though, it still comes down to a return on investment, because every expense needs to be justified. If we spend $X producing a trailer, will it bring us $X+Y in new subscriptions and sales? If we spend $Z producing tv commercials, can we prove that those commercials bring us $Z+Y in revenues? When you're launching a brand new game, you don't need to be as diligent about answering those questions. For an established game, however, there is far less flexibility. Any perceived lack of advertising was never due to skepticism or a lack of desire on our part. If the resources were there, every Issue release would have been accompanied by full-age ads in every magazine and comic book. We'd have had multiple trailers and even TV buys. And there'd have been much more fanfare and hoopla. Paragon Studio was a small studio, but we consistently produced incredible work that far larger studios couldn't even hope to match. I think an unintended consequence of that was that we gave the impression that we were much bigger than we actually were. We just managed to do a lot more with a lot less. |
... Wait. What do you mean, you don't have a legion of minions?
Michelle
aka
Samuraiko/Dark_Respite
Dark_Respite's Farewell Video: "One Last Day"
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
THE COURSE OF SUPERHERO ROMANCE CONTINUES!
Book I: A Tale of Nerd Flirting! ~*~ Book II: Courtship and Crime Fighting - Chap Nine live!
MA Arcs - 3430: Hell Hath No Fury / 3515: Positron Gets Some / 6600: Dyne of the Times / 351572: For All the Wrong Reasons
378944: Too Clever by Half / 459581: Kill or Cure / 551680: Clerical Errors (NEW!)
Quote:
No worries. Thanks for even answering it to that effect. |
Originally Posted by Black Pebble
FPAUG (First Post After UberGuy)
I think it'd be best to avoid all questions such as the above for now. I do see there are active debates on it, but I don't think I'm in a position to resolve those. |
Edit: FPAUG sounds like it ought to be a Tolkien dragon.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
-Hosun "Black Pebble" Lee
Help me beat Dr. Aeon! Follow me on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/hosunl