Hover or not to hover


Arcanaville

 

Posted

At the risk of invoking Arcanaville, I just want to point out that that "last 2%" of soft-capping Defense is not really 'all that' if the incoming damage is not one-shot worthy.

Sure, that "last 2%" can be evaluated with regard to the offender's offensive capability and that last 2% means their offensive capability has been reduced by a comparative 33%. But compared to the Defense you already have, that last 2% is only about 1.8% more Defense than what you've already got. And absolutely, it's still just 2%.

Out of 100 attempts to hit you, 2% more Defense simply means, on average, 2 less hits. If you can mitigate that in other ways (-ToHit, +Resist, hard and soft mezzes, heal, regen, -Dam, running away), then that "last 2%" is not as spectacular as it sounds simply by slicing the data to look only at the offender's relative offensive capability with and without that last 2%.

Beside, a purple inspiration or a teammate's Defense buff makes that "last 2%" moot (barring a foe's -ToHit debuff on you).

What the soft-cap should really mean is not that you *must* achieve it, but, going past it is usually not worthwhile (again, only going against a foe with -ToHit Debuffs or a higher base ToHit, such as Incarnate level Praetorians would warrant attempting to go past the first soft cap).


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warkupo View Post
I just wanted to point out the possibility of taking both Combat Jumping and Hover.

Seriously, Combat Jumping is such an inexpensive toggle I have a hard time rationalizing NOT taking it.
i tend to take both Hover and Combat Jumping on many alts as long as they don't have powers that require standing on the ground. Even my Traps/Dark Defender uses Hover since Traps can use their powers while flying as long as they're just above a solid surface. On the other hand i never slot either power for defense.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Honbrid View Post
If it has been some time since your trying of Hover
It hasn't. It was on my current tanker. Hover is OK for blasting but I really need to move around more if I'm melee, and even more if I'm going to stay ahead of a team and not slow them down with my tank.


 

Posted

In my limited experience, Hover is a great power if you're a ranged AT, or at least rely on a lot of ranged powers (Doms, 'Trollers, Blasters, Corrs, etc). It's not a great power if you're melee, not only do a surprising number of melee powers actually require you to be on the ground, but that's where 99% of your targets are, and gravity actually helps you find them by taking care of the z axis for you. The defense bonus is poor, though it's a great place to hide a LotG and helps open access to Afterburner which can also hold a LotG. But for a /SS or SS/, it's going to hurt a lot more than it will help.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
At the risk of invoking Arcanaville, I just want to point out that that "last 2%" of soft-capping Defense is not really 'all that' if the incoming damage is not one-shot worthy.
That's true, but the benefit is not so small that 1-2 slots in Hover is a high price for it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Out of 100 attempts to hit you, 2% more Defense simply means, on average, 2 less hits. If you can mitigate that in other ways (-ToHit, +Resist, hard and soft mezzes, heal, regen, -Dam, running away), then that "last 2%" is not as spectacular as it sounds simply by slicing the data to look only at the offender's relative offensive capability with and without that last 2%.
Except that "slicing" is the only thing we can perceive, and the only thing that directly affects our survivability. I'm not sure why people think its reasonable to compare 43% defense an 45% defense vs zero, but if there was no floor it would be equally true that the last 2% of defense from 48% to 50% would be the same 2 less hits, except that last 2% defense would also be absolute immortality (outside of direct defense counters). That should be enough to eliminate the idea that 2 less hits always has the same value, but if its not the long explanation is several pages longer.

Under the right conditions a trained observer can actually *see* 2% defense in action. When Evasion was announced to have increased by 1.875% in I6, I could actually see it hadn't been just from playing SR, in the days before Real Numbers and City of Data, and that prompted me to construct a test to prove it.


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Posted

Hrm. I've been following this bemusedly for a while. I'd like to interject at this point. I think the advice to the OP is solid; Hover should be skipped because and only because it interferes with the functionality of Super Strength. And yet, there is still an evident disagreement about layered mitigation. So...

Zombie Man, you made three errors. First, you don't "risk" invoking Arcanaville when you actually use her name. Arcanaville is basically the devil. (Elsewhere I may have called her an engineer, a sapient dolphin, or the very best thing ever. I wholeheartedly believe each of these five things.)

Second, it's fewer. Hits is a particulate quantity, not a fluid. So it's fewer hits, not less.

Third, and this is where I am actually annoyed, you used two true but unrelated statements in a directly comparative fashion in such a way as to give yourself mathematical-seeming credibility despite an argument you subversively acknowledge even as you dismiss it. There's probably a real name for this fallacy, but I call it Beckonomics. As in, economics according to Glenn Beck. It's a horrid, horrid thing. It's even worse than how Hopeling calls -mahp equivalent to a res debuff, despite behaving only very slightly like how an actual res debuff behaves, and it drives me nuts whenever he does that to another new player or non-statistically-aware-individual.

Edit : N.S.A.I., for short, or phonetically, "En-sigh." It's not supposed to sound like anything.

Edit 2 : OP, if you're still reading, the correct answer is always cheating. There are a number of ways to get on-demand Defense; perhaps the easiest is the store items (team insps or Amplifiers). Of course, the temp powers are a bit cheaper. I haven't found a good way to shoehorn on DDR, but KD/sapping/-rech are passable "effective DDR" against a lot of things. That pesky 5% to-hit floor is always there, but it's all about the incoming-over-time. Be creative!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
Edit 2 : OP, if you're still reading, the correct answer is always cheating. There are a number of ways to get on-demand Defense; perhaps the easiest is the store items (team insps or Amplifiers). Of course, the temp powers are a bit cheaper. I haven't found a good way to shoehorn on DDR, but KD/sapping/-rech are passable "effective DDR" against a lot of things. That pesky 5% to-hit floor is always there, but it's all about the incoming-over-time. Be creative!
If we're talking about a level 50, tier 4 Barrier Core offers at least 5% defense and resistance constantly (higher at times, but that's the strength of the "tail" that buffs the last 60 seconds of the 120s cycle).

If what you want is debuff resistance, Ageless Radial Epiphany offers significant debuff resistance. 21.25% DDR minimum, higher for earlier parts of the cycle.


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Posted

Willpower has a weak taunt aura, and needs folks tobe close to benefit from rise to the challenge. The only way I see making hover work for a Willpower Tank is to take taunt, slot for range/recharge. Softcap your ranged and aoE defense, and hover about 60 feet above the combat spamming taunt. Should confuse the crap outta everything, including your teammates.

On a less sarcastic note. NO do not do this. I ran a Willpower Tank for about 3 months straight in the original Incarnate Trials. DO softcap S/L defense, and get Energy Defense high or softcapped as well. Combat Jumping is the power you want, not Hover. I tend to run Willpower and use Tough, Weave, Leadership Manuevers, and Combat Jumping. My current SS/Will Brute is softcapped to S/L/En/Neg and does real well. Seriously, you need the baddies in tight for ss/will. Hover disables Footstomp. That alone should let you know how bad it is. You will need to spam taunt on a Willpower tank, and be aggravating everything as much as you can. Take an epic with non KB AoE, and slot those for taunt where you can. The more you control the baddies, the better you can do your job. Willpower is a good armor to build a strong house on, but it does not hold agro well by itself, and you need to be doing that, both for SS/Will tactics, and especially as a tank. GL, and PS DO NOT HOVER.

PS, why does arcanaville get her name in the left margin twice now. She pulling a Warhol on us?


 

Posted

Well, four times, but who's counting?

(And I think the answer should be obvious.)


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Except that "slicing" is the only thing we can perceive, and the only thing that directly affects our survivability. I'm not sure why people think its reasonable to compare 43% defense an 45% defense vs zero, but if there was no floor it would be equally true that the last 2% of defense from 48% to 50% would be the same 2 less hits, except that last 2% defense would also be absolute immortality (outside of direct defense counters). That should be enough to eliminate the idea that 2 less hits always has the same value, but if its not the long explanation is several pages longer.
Meh. Immortality is overrated.

And I did preface my remarks with regard to a situation where you're not being one-shotted and what is incoming is mitigatable. In that situation, being nearly immortal is practically the same as actual immortality, which doesn't exist because of Defense/ToHit clamps. So, I'm OK with being just a tad fewer immortal.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion View Post
PS, why does arcanaville get her name in the left margin twice now. She pulling a Warhol on us?
Four times, actually (look at her forum title). Unless you are seeing something different than what I'm seeing.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie Man View Post
Meh. Immortality is overrated.

And I did preface my remarks with regard to a situation where you're not being one-shotted and what is incoming is mitigatable. In that situation, being nearly immortal is practically the same as actual immortality, which doesn't exist because of Defense/ToHit clamps. So, I'm OK with being just a tad fewer immortal.
Lowering my defense from 45% to 43% is like getting hit with an autohitting -40% resistance debuff constantly. That's not a tad anything.

But it is true that 43% can be "nearly immortal" depending on what you face. For that matter, so can 33% defense, 20% resistance, or slotted health.

Against +0x1 most scrappers would be nearly immortal with no secondary.

But why is "immortality" not overrated? Because most players probably play the game within a factor of two or so of what they could play at. Players generally don't build hyperstrong builds and then play at +0x1. They build strong to play at higher difficulty. If they never encounter anything that gives them any challenge, they are not likely to spend time improving their builds, at least not defensively.

*Most* of the players running around with 43% defense are likely to be facing things that are at least nominally capable of challenging 43% defense. Even if they like to cruise without difficulty they will still be cruising at a difficulty level that 43% defense allows to be easy.

For those people, the difference between 43% defense and 45% defense will tend to be noticable. The people for whom 43% and 45% defense look exactly identical are extremely unlikely to possess 43% defense in the first place.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
Well, four times, but who's counting?
I'm thinking of making it six, but I'm worried I will be summoning myself everywhere along with a mini-me.


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Posted

I was wondering why it wasn't, to be honest.

And just imagine if you had a mini-me to handle all those little tasks!


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm thinking of making it six, but I'm worried I will be summoning myself everywhere along with a mini-me.
If you did summon yourself every time you posted, wouldn't you get stuck in an infinite loop?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grendar View Post
In my limited experience, Hover is a great power if you're a ranged AT, or at least rely on a lot of ranged powers (Doms, 'Trollers, Blasters, Corrs, etc). It's not a great power if you're melee, not only do a surprising number of melee powers actually require you to be on the ground, but that's where 99% of your targets are, and gravity actually helps you find them by taking care of the z axis for you. The defense bonus is poor, though it's a great place to hide a LotG and helps open access to Afterburner which can also hold a LotG. But for a /SS or SS/, it's going to hurt a lot more than it will help.
Super Strength (2):
Hurl, Footstomp

Titan Weapons (1):
Arc of Destruction

Stone Melee (2):
Fault, Hurl Boulder

Secondaries:

Electric Armor (1):
Grounded

Fiery Aura (1):
Burn

And Stone Armor basically shuts off all flight.

That's not a "surprising number". That's just a couple sets hovering won't work with.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
The people for whom 43% and 45% defense look exactly identical are extremely unlikely to possess 43% defense in the first place.
I'm just quoting this because it's a great line, and so true, and I don't generally sig people but this is sig worthy.

But to put it in terms that people might more easily understand... if I want to run ahead of my team on an ITF and solo a spawn or two or an ambush in the 2nd mission, I will notice if I'm starting at only 43% defense. Because I'll be at 20% defense inside a few seconds, and then dead most likely. Which is not to say that this can't happen to me if I start at 45% defense, but every 1% defense helps me avoid that sudden debuff drop, and gives me more time to react and eat a purple when I see it happening.

PS -- Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peacebringers in human form have a stomp-like power that requires you to be on the ground as well.

And I don't want to give the impression that I think Super Strength and Hover is a good combo. But in point of fact, my Super Strength/Invul brute does fly and has hover -- but I also have combat jumping, and I tend to do nearly all of my fighting on the ground of course. You want to Footstomp, otherwise I don't know why you're playing SS.



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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Organica View Post
PS -- Correct me if I'm wrong, but Peacebringers in human form have a stomp-like power that requires you to be on the ground as well.
Solar Flare was changed to work in the air somewhat recently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx View Post
Solar Flare was changed to work in the air somewhat recently.
The Tank form AoE, yes (cause of teleport's auto-hover) - but the human form version?>


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack_NoMind View Post
I was wondering why it wasn't, to be honest.

And just imagine if you had a mini-me to handle all those little tasks!
Like actually responding to phone calls?


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Posted

Not a fan of Hover. I'd prefer Combat Jumping any day, but, if concept demands flight, then Hover is a worthwhile substitute...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
I'm thinking of making it six, but I'm worried I will be summoning myself everywhere along with a mini-me.
As much as I appreciate you as an author on the boards, if there were more of you (mini or not) I would have to start assuming I was sliding ever deeper into a sideways universe where anything is possible.....hmmm, try eight?