Dissecting SSA2.2 *spoilers*


bpphantom

 

Posted

I realise that this seems like a vanity project, but I've still decided to go over SSA2.1 with a fine-tooth comb and list any potential technical errors I find about it. This isn't an attempt to "hate" on the arc as so far, I actually rather like it, but Arcana advised me to make a list of my complaints, so here I am.

Mission 1

*Right off the bat, why is Professor Echo in this arc? In case you need a reminder, when we last saw Professor Echo in the 15-20 Echo down the Aeons arc, he DIED. Professor Echo was speaking to a much older Dr. Aeon who escaped to play a part in Time After Time, while Professor Echo stayed behind and fought to the death. This isn't even one of those ambiguous "defeated" moments. His death was pretty explicit. So why is he still alive?

*Why are Longbow soldiers ignoring Professor Echo? I know the mission suggests they're looking for him, but it's not like the man is hiding. He stands in plain sight yelling loud enough for me to hear him through a double door, yet people 20 feet from him don't know he's there? Why not do a repeat of the Brass arc and have the man show up with Shivans or something else he's cloned or reproduced? Like Storm Elementals called something else? ... Which he apparently has with him at the end.

*Serious dialogue crime here. Professor Echo asks "Has historical time travel as an investigative tool even crossed your mind?" and my only response is "No... Well, not until now, I suppose." Oi... Let's review. By this point, Xanta has travelled to ancient Cimerora to discover the history of MoT, travelled back in time to gather information from the 5th Column in the past, defeated a Rikti commander in order to investigate the consequences in the future and... Oh! Gone to the end of time to give Ramiel that crystal to bring back and unlock her own Incarnate status. But no, time travel never crossed her mind. What is this I don't even... Why not just add an extra option which says "Yes, it has crossed my mind, but what are you talking about, exactly?" and have Echo explain it? It stops our characters from making continuity-breaking statements.

*How does City of Heroes handle time paradoxes? History causes Echo to travel back in time and in the process creates the history which sent him back in the first place. So which came first - the chicken or the egg? I'm not asking for a physics lecuture on relativity theory and manifold mathematics, just an off-hand explanation of how that works, or at the very least an admission that this shouldn't have happened. Time travel is a can of worms if you don't impose some kind of ruleset to it.

*The Shivan spawns on the last floor are bugged. They're doing the OOOLD CoV thing with just spawning two minions side-by-side punching their fists as can be seen in some custom maps from the Rikti War Zone still. It's not a big deal since there are only about three of those spawns, but still.

*Maybe I've just forgotten SSA2.1, but when did we find out that this whole thing is the fault of Pandora's Box and when did we find out what it is? If I'm travelling back to when it was first opened, as so far seems implied, wouldn't I need to know more about it? And if it's known that it was Pandora's Box, then why is Antonio Nash insisting that whatever did this to the Trolls, it wasn't Superadine? If we know it was the Box, then isn't it obvious this wasn't Superadine? Or am I reading something wrong?

*Why does Antonio react to Professor Echo like he knows who that is? The good Professor's only call to fame was disrupting Arachnos operations on the Isles and then dying. I don't recall him being a major player in Paragon City. I'd suggest swapping his reference to "Professor Echo" to "this Professor Echo" or even "this Professor Echo person." And, come to think of it... Echo never introduced himself. In the Isles, it's Brass that first brings up the name as some sort of moniker that the man is known by, but in Paragon City, the name is never mentioned until Nash first blurts it out. Did I just happen to read the name floating over the man's head? Are those actually real in the world of City of Heroes? I thought they were just part of my UI.

*Antonio Nash brings up the problem of confusing time travel, but what confuses him is the concept of predestiny, rather than the concept of a temporal paradox. I know the man is not a physicist, but he's still a scientist - chemist, I believe - working on the physiological effects of Superadine on the human body. He ought to be learned enough to spot a closed circle of events spawning each other with no outside catalyst to start it in the first place.

Moving on to Mission 2...


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

I'll admit I haven't played 2.2 yet, but spoilers never really bother me all that terribly much.

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
*Right off the bat, why is Professor Echo in this arc? In case you need a reminder, when we last saw Professor Echo in the 15-20 Echo down the Aeons arc, he DIED. Professor Echo was speaking to a much older Dr. Aeon who escaped to play a part in Time After Time, while Professor Echo stayed behind and fought to the death. This isn't even one of those ambiguous "defeated" moments. His death was pretty explicit. So why is he still alive?
Does the arc reference that this Professor Echo is from after that point in time? Otherwise since he's a time traveler, it's entirely possible it's an earlier Professor Echo than the one we see getting killed. I mean, I may be entirely wrong since I haven't played the arc yet, but knowing he's a time traveler that'd probably be my immediate assumption.


MA Arcs: Yarmouth 1509 and 58812

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
I realise that this seems like a vanity project, but I've still decided to go over SSA2.1 with a fine-tooth comb and list any potential technical errors I find about it. This isn't an attempt to "hate" on the arc as so far, I actually rather like it, but Arcana advised me to make a list of my complaints, so here I am.

Mission 1

*Right off the bat, why is Professor Echo in this arc? In case you need a reminder, when we last saw Professor Echo in the 15-20 Echo down the Aeons arc, he DIED. Professor Echo was speaking to a much older Dr. Aeon who escaped to play a part in Time After Time, while Professor Echo stayed behind and fought to the death. This isn't even one of those ambiguous "defeated" moments. His death was pretty explicit. So why is he still alive?
Time travel. We're meeting a PEcho from before his death.

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*Why are Longbow soldiers ignoring Professor Echo? I know the mission suggests they're looking for him, but it's not like the man is hiding. He stands in plain sight yelling loud enough for me to hear him through a double door, yet people 20 feet from him don't know he's there? Why not do a repeat of the Brass arc and have the man show up with Shivans or something else he's cloned or reproduced? Like Storm Elementals called something else? ... Which he apparently has with him at the end.
In my mission when I arrived at his final location he and his shivans had just finished beating up a squad of Longbow.

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*Serious dialogue crime here. Professor Echo asks "Has historical time travel as an investigative tool even crossed your mind?" and my only response is "No... Well, not until now, I suppose." Oi... Let's review. By this point, Xanta has travelled to ancient Cimerora to discover the history of MoT, travelled back in time to gather information from the 5th Column in the past, defeated a Rikti commander in order to investigate the consequences in the future and... Oh! Gone to the end of time to give Ramiel that crystal to bring back and unlock her own Incarnate status. But no, time travel never crossed her mind. What is this I don't even... Why not just add an extra option which says "Yes, it has crossed my mind, but what are you talking about, exactly?" and have Echo explain it? It stops our characters from making continuity-breaking statements.
Meh. Doesn't bug me. /e shrug

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*How does City of Heroes handle time paradoxes? History causes Echo to travel back in time and in the process creates the history which sent him back in the first place. So which came first - the chicken or the egg? I'm not asking for a physics lecuture on relativity theory and manifold mathematics, just an off-hand explanation of how that works, or at the very least an admission that this shouldn't have happened. Time travel is a can of worms if you don't impose some kind of ruleset to it.
Echo mentions this during his dialogue.

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*The Shivan spawns on the last floor are bugged. They're doing the OOOLD CoV thing with just spawning two minions side-by-side punching their fists as can be seen in some custom maps from the Rikti War Zone still. It's not a big deal since there are only about three of those spawns, but still.
I had Lts in my spawns (just one plus a couple of minions) and as I had said above they attacked Longbow and myself.

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*Maybe I've just forgotten SSA2.1, but when did we find out that this whole thing is the fault of Pandora's Box and when did we find out what it is? If I'm travelling back to when it was first opened, as so far seems implied, wouldn't I need to know more about it? And if it's known that it was Pandora's Box, then why is Antonio Nash insisting that whatever did this to the Trolls, it wasn't Superadine? If we know it was the Box, then isn't it obvious this wasn't Superadine? Or am I reading something wrong?
The Talon of Vengeance Clamor and whichever psychic you have with you tells us that Pandora's Box is opening at the end of SSA2.1. That's not common knowledge and even at that point it's still just a myth.

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*Why does Antonio react to Professor Echo like he knows who that is? The good Professor's only call to fame was disrupting Arachnos operations on the Isles and then dying. I don't recall him being a major player in Paragon City. I'd suggest swapping his reference to "Professor Echo" to "this Professor Echo" or even "this Professor Echo person." And, come to think of it... Echo never introduced himself. In the Isles, it's Brass that first brings up the name as some sort of moniker that the man is known by, but in Paragon City, the name is never mentioned until Nash first blurts it out. Did I just happen to read the name floating over the man's head? Are those actually real in the world of City of Heroes? I thought they were just part of my UI.
How do you know Positron? How does anyone know you? Did you tell Antonio your name or did you do those ancient missions that he used to give? Why do people talk to that nutjob on the pedestal in Atlas?

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*Antonio Nash brings up the problem of confusing time travel, but what confuses him is the concept of predestiny, rather than the concept of a temporal paradox. I know the man is not a physicist, but he's still a scientist - chemist, I believe - working on the physiological effects of Superadine on the human body. He ought to be learned enough to spot a closed circle of events spawning each other with no outside catalyst to start it in the first place.
But you weren't going to time travel until someone time traveled back to find out how you time traveled so far... but you weren't going to time travel until he came back to find that out... For a non-nerd/theoretical temporal physicist it can be confusing. Like a smartphone to our parents.


@bpphantom
The Defenders of Paragon
KGB Special Section 8

 

Posted

Mission 2

*Right off the bat... Antonio Nash claims temporal science is "a few steps above his paygrade." Fair enough, he's not a temporal scientist. But then, neither am I and I still caught the problem. Either he knows enough about time travel to know why a paradox is not a problem, or he's too dense to spot it and at least comment on it, neither of which really makes sense for the guy.

*Antonio Nash suggests I have better resources to deal with this than I do. That caught ME by surprise since it took me a minute to realise he was referring to Ouroboros... I think. But wait, how does Nash know about Ouroboros? I thought only those of us selected to receive an Ouro Portal, those chosen to have a part to play in changing the future, were enlightened in Ouro's presence. How did he find out? Is that common knowledge now? And if he knows about Ouro, how is time travel so alien to guy that he won't even comment on it? What am I missing here?

*OK, Pandora's Box's history starts, "as far as you know," in ancient Greece. How do I know this? Because of ancient Greek myth of Pandora? That's just a myth unless I have evidence that it isn't. Yes, I know that some myths are real in City of Heroes - Prometheus is a good example - but that doesn't mean ALL myths are. I just don't get why the narrative treats Pandora's Box as something we know exists and was opened and is real BEFORE we learn about it and find evidence to support this assertion.

*Prometheus' dialogue is weird. He speaks in this faux-aerie, over-complex speech in this arc, which doesn't really reflect his more diction that he had when last I spoke about him in relation to being an Incarnate. I know this arc assumes this is happening BEFORE I became an Incarnate, but couldn't that dialogue have had an extra flag to tell if I'm an Incarnate the same way as Dominatrix can tell I'm from Praetoria? It just feels like I caught Prometheus reading poetry and he didn't see me coming.

*OK, I can't resist asking this any more - what, exactly, did Prometheus "grant" mankind to elevate us? Or are we leaving the explanation off and just going by what I'm supposed to know about the myth? Because as far as I can tell, Ermeeth teaching magic to mankind was a hell of a lot more help than teaching us how to make fire. I know it's a small point to pick on, but this arc uses so many things that, as far as I can tell, are never explained...

*I don't get Zeus' plan here. He swore to always "hold dominion" over mankind, but how does putting his power inside Pandora's Box to be used by mortals accomplish this. Is he dead now? Prometheus still lives, so why did Zeus have to put his power in a box and not, instead, wiled it directly and use THAT to hold dominion? This story is making decisions I don't really understand.

*Explain this line to me: "That... is knowledge that I cannot share. However, there is another in this place that may be more forthcoming." He can't tell me, but he points me to someone who CAN tell me? Why? Doesn't this accomplish the same thing? Is Prometheus afraid of revealing secrets in front of his angelic companions? That might have been good to mention. The only reason I infer this is I spoke with Prometheus outside of this arc and asked him about Christy and Michael, but mentioning them in the actual arc might have been nice as a means of giving context why Promethus wants to tell us but can't and has to play games instead.

*Wow, OK, four paragraphs of complaints and it all turns out to have been padding, thanks to the temporal banana phone. Echo tells me I'm supposed to go to the box in Achea. Instead of doing this, I ask Prometheus, who can't tell me but sends me to Silos, who can't tell me but sends me to Achea. ... THIS ACCOMPLISHED NOTHING! I had access to the Pillar of Ice and Flame before this. I could have simply gone to Achea on my own, so why did I have to go through two dialogues of people essentially explaining how they're telling me nothing only to do what I thought I was going to Ouroboros to do in the first place? Seriously, if I'm going to speak with these people, at least make those conversations have a point. As it stands, they're just padding. And why am I using Lazarus' crystal instead of Silos when Silos instructed me to do it?

*The mission entry pop-up is confusing. "There must be something here that Silos wants you to see." Yes, there is. This is where Pandora's Box is, that's why I came here. And I didn't come here because Silos sent me, I came here because Echo suggested I should and I was out of leads. Are we assuming that the conversations with Prometheus and Silos had a point and they're why I'm here? Because they could have been dropped out of the story entirely and nothing would have changed. They said nothing of substance.

*Idle musing, but when I actually got into the mission and started killing stuff, it was a lot of fun. Unlike the first mission, this one has a lot of action and few distractions. Glad to see balance has been maintained so well. It makes me happy. I'd appreciate a tad more non-vital NPC chatter, but it's not a big deal.

*The scripting on Imperious confuses me. He shows up with a blue reticle so I can't attack him, only for him to finish monologuing and THEN turn orange so I can attack him. Why? Why prevent me from attacking him mid-monologue? It's not a problem, I just don't get it.

*I finally realise what Prometheus' and Silos' dialogues remind me of - the Romans. The way Romulus speaks is actually pretty spot on for the rest of Cimerora, but it seems like his speech mannerisms have somehow infected Solos and Prometheus, as well. Curious... Also, why is he not Nictus yet? Is this supposed to take place before the ITF? Because both it and this arc have the same level range. OK, I can roll with that.

*Wait wait wait... Romulus AND Imperious were empowered by the box TOGETHER? First of all, wasn't Imperious an Incarnate? Is the box interchangeable with the Well now? Secondly, what about the stories from people in Senator Aquila's arc who tell of how Romulus was just a "jester" (a word repeated no less than three times in that arc) and he grew great power and took the empire from Imperious? I thought Imperious had been super-powered since long before Romulus was. Lastly... Where does this leave the Path of the Dark? I thought "the last Roman emperor," Romulus Augustulus, tried to save his empire by making a pact with the cult of werewolves and was last seen descending into the darkness with them? Wasn't THAT where he got his power first? Because the writers over the years made numerous attempts to paint the War Wolves as ALIENS - Nictus - and now we're going back to them being magical and part of Pandora's Box? I don't recall a mention in that guard's journal about Imperious going into the cave with them. Just a "drojan," who was already a werewolf. What's going on here? Are we rewriting Cimerora's backstory now?

*"And the Box? Where do you think it is now?" asks my character, lacking her opening quote mark. Smooth, Xanta. Romulus just told you how he would disassemble Cimerora brick by brick and murder everybody, and your reaction is "Yeah, whatever, doom and gloom - about that box..." I thought you became a hero to protect the weak from those who would abuse their power, but I guess that can wait. Oi... I really wish there were a reason for why I'm not taking this chance to smack Romulus around and help Cimerora. I get that this can't happen, but I'd like a reason for why I can't. And again, "I have a nation to conquer!" he says, and Xanta basically goes "OK, have fun with that. Bye!" Ugh...

*And another thing: When Ramiel first tries to charter a trip to Cimerora to look for the Well of the Furies, it transpires that the Midnight Club's crystal enabling large numbers of people to go back in time and much about with Cimerora is causing a disturbance in causality. So why is Silos unable to notice this NOW when he sends me to essentially the same time period? You can't just say "Oh, this takes place before the ITF so people haven't been going there yet. That's not how time travel works. People HAVE been going there. Not exactly to that precise moment, perhaps, but within a decade of it and that should cause some kind of disturbance enough to out the Letter Writer's stake in Cimerora. So why doesn't that happen?

*Also, again - this whole trip to Cimerora accomplished nothing. Unless you want to tell me that these missions to go speak with people are accomplishing delivering information to me... But what information is that? Prometheus lets slip that the Box has the power of Zeus, but I'm not sure how that's better than just "a lot of power," Silos lets slip that the Box is vital to his Coming Storm and Romulus basically stomps on Cimeroran lore and the Path of the Dark. Again - what did that accomplish?

*You know... For a man for whom time travel is "above his paycheck," Antonio Nash sure is taking all of this stuff in his stride. "Welcome back, chrononaut." Yeah, nothing unusual about this, no need to be impressed. I guess if he knew about Oruoboros, he shouldn't be impressed. Eh, maybe the man just has tunnel vision about his narrow field of science. I can roll with that. It just seems odd.

*Also, wait... Why is Romulus in ancient Greece? Is that where Cimerora was? Because I was under the impression it was somewhere on the Italian peninsula. And indeed, why are the Romans speaking about Greek myths using Greek names? Zeus, Hades, Pandora... Didn't they have Latin names for those, as well as a significantly different but largely borrowed religion based around Mars as the primary god? OK, now I'm confused again.

Moving on to Mission 3.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Oliin View Post
Does the arc reference that this Professor Echo is from after that point in time? Otherwise since he's a time traveler, it's entirely possible it's an earlier Professor Echo than the one we see getting killed. I mean, I may be entirely wrong since I haven't played the arc yet, but knowing he's a time traveler that'd probably be my immediate assumption.
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Yeah, it's possible he's from before that time. But here's what I don't get, if that's the case - what possible interest could he have for me? Is he just here to steal "my" time-travel tech? Because as far as I know, the entire character arc of Aeon -> Old Aeon -> Echo has to do with Time After Time and my villain characters destroying the world in a fight with Lord Recluse.

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Originally Posted by bpphantom View Post
Echo mentions this during his dialogue.
He mentions being amused at it and treats it like a minor nuisance, rather than like a big problem. It suggests that these kinds of paradoxes are seen as normal, which I can't really get.

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Originally Posted by bpphantom View Post
How do you know Positron? How does anyone know you? Did you tell Antonio your name or did you do those ancient missions that he used to give? Why do people talk to that nutjob on the pedestal in Atlas?
No need to snark. The solution to this is simple - have Echo introduce himself by name as the very first thing he does when he realises diplomacy IS an option. Job done.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Mission 3

*OK, right off the bat, Antonio Nash repeats Venture's argument on mystical things - we don't know if it's magic, but it looks like it and feels like it so it might as well be magic. So he suggests looking for a magic user to deal with it. Boy, won't Nash have egg on his face when Akharist or whoever that is goes that and discovers it's an ancient alien technologic artefact. Oops!

*Oh, OK, so it's Azuria. I did not expect that, but it's a good call. She definitely needs the exposure. Plus, very good idea to both play on the old "magi vault revolving door" meme while still salvaging Azuria's character as a potent, legitimate mystic. Good call. I do have to wonder exactly what I'm going to ask her, though. This arc has the tendency to have me take action without fully realising what that action actually constitutes.

*Oh, no! Something has happened to the safehouse! I totally didn't see that coming from being directed to an instance! Sorry, sorry, I'm joking on this one. I know there's no way to avoid this and... Honestly, I'd rather something happen and let me fight than have another "talk to" mission.

*Random observation: Warehouses interior textures have been fixed! I didn't notice when this happened, and I know it's not unique to SSA2.2, but it's still very satisfying. I'm no longer seeing a random mish-mash of inappropriate texture squares, and it actually makes the tileset look very appealing.

*Why are all the Warrior spawns in that mission patrols? It's not really a bad thing or a good thing, but it makes the mission really chaotic.

*Huh... Why does Odysseus in this arc have a different description than in The Magician's arc? This one's better, by the way. I love that he has a real name - David Hill - with "Odysseus" being just a moniker. It makes the Warriors feel both more legitimate as a believable villain faction and more real as a threat when they're not just cosplayers re-enacting old stories.

*I do have a question, though - are we trying to turn Odysseus sympathetic? Because it seems we've turned a lot of our villains into kittens - Dominatrix, the Clockwork King, Master Midnight... And it feels like we're going the Penny/King route with Odysseus/Azuria. OK, so now that we know who Odysseus is (I've seen his face) can we charge and arrest him? Maybe have his company taken seized? Anything?

*Aw! Azuria didn't get a new unique editor-made model! Come on, now. Antonio Nash did when nobody knows who he is, but Azuria didn't? Disappointing. Still, I'm glad her dialogue isn't that of a skittish hostage. She has an air of confidence, and I like that.

*OK, surprising me greatly, Azuria makes a lot of sense and actually ties the plot together strongly. Now I get why we went to her - because she's a Seer who's good at tracking down lost artefacts, as evidence by her doing so now. This beats Antonio's reasoning of "It's magic so let's look for it with magic!" sixth grader reasoning by a mile. It also makes sense why Odysseus is looking for the thing - he's in the business of amassing powerful artefacts, and Pandora's Box is a very powerful artefact. It also explains why the thing is hard to find, nevertheless giving me a strong lead on its location. This mission accomplished a lot!

*"An expert on Pandora's Box, huh? Well, it's a whole lot better than nothing." says Antonio Nash, prompting me to quote Gideon Wyeth from Advent Rising fame and retort "It IS nothing." Now, granted, I know this lead will turn out something important, but that's going off genre-savvy predictions, not actual grounded logic. It's the same reason I knew there would be enemies in Azuria's mission by virtue of it taking place in an instance. Although I guess having someone familiar with the Box's history might reveal other places it has showed up throughout time that I can pursue via Ourobors, but I highly doubt this will happen.

Moving onto Mission 4, and taking a break for lunch.


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Kirsten View Post
Well, as far as Rommy, we know from his dialogue that he got nothing from the Box, so perhaps in a fit of jealousy and vengeance he made his pact with the Path of the Dark later on...
We do? But he says the opening of the box gave him super powers, and it kind of makes sense - he's still sporting his red Cimeroran costume and isn't yet in his Nictus form. This sounds like it's trying to say we're seeing Romulus before he goes for the Path of the Dark.

Actually, what IS the story about that, anyway? According to the Drojan diary, he was an emperor BEFORE he went to look for the Path of the Dark. Could it be that the Box was a part of the story already and I just didn't read it right? Because when I stop to think about it, Romulus being just a jester would suggest he got power BEFORE becoming emperor, and he went to look for the Path of the Dark AFTER he was already an emperor.

Something here doesn't add up.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

Posted

Mission 4

*OK, so Antonio Nash chartered a Freedom Corps sub to take me to Albania? Let's hope the Professor isn't very far in-land, but why not just mention this proper? Instead of "I've set up transportation," why not have him say "I chartered a Freedom Corps sub for you?" Just to be a little more specific and tie this to the physical world a little more, is what I mean. And if the situation is dire enough for Longbow to lend a whole sub for me, why aren't actual soldiers going out to look for the professor? Or am I just hitching a ride on a sub that's going to Europe anyway? And why not a plane? It seems like just snagging an American Airways ticket would be both faster and cheaper than riding in a sub. I'm led to believe there's a time pressure involved. I know I'm nitpicking, but this is the sort of thing that can be solved by an offhand remark.

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I don't actually have the budget to requisition an air ticket for you, but I did talk Freedom Corps into lending you the jump seat on one of their Subs heading for an allied base near Albania. They'll drop you off.
That's all you need to say to make the real world "stick" to the text.

*The entry message confuses me. I thought I was going to look for a professor who's on an expedition to Albania (even if going on an "expedition" into a civilised state confuses me), but if that's the case, why does the entry pop-up tell me I hope I'm the first person to discover this place. WHY did I come here if not because the professor had already discovered this place and was there? Did I flip over two pages at once? And sure enough, there are archeology students inside, so I'm NOT the first person to discover this place.

*Also, it's weird that I'm looking for the professor at his dig site, yet I don't stop to ask the archaeology students where he is, if he's at the site or anything of the sort. They also don't respond to a 10-foot-tall green woman carrying around a steel girder of a runic sword traipsing through their dig. You'd think that would catch someone's attention, elicit a comment, something... No, I just walk on by and keep looking. Honestly, for as talk-heavy as this arc was, I'm surprised this mission didn't start off with me chatting up a student and asking if the professor is here. The one place where there SHOULD be dialogue, or at least a clue, there isn't one. I'd honestly have traded the Prometheus and Silos dialogues for one here.

*Huh... OK, I did NOT call Arachnos being involved in this, but it makes sense. Recluse hasn't been relevant lately and an old Greek artefact that has to do with the power of Zeus and, potentially, the Statesman's death would be something logical for him to involve himself in. Point to the story - that makes sense. I'm just surprised no-one was able to identify Arachnos as being suspicios, what with them walking around in either plate mail armour or shiny skintight latex. I get the Albanians might not be familiar with Arachnos, but I have a hard time believing that someone can see a Crab Spider and NOT tell he's all sorts of bad news. ... I take that back, the student they were holding hostage has clearly spotted the evil in Arachnos' dress code... Which leads me to question why Professor Harvan's colleagues or the other Archeology Students didn't bat an eye.

*OK, I have to say something here. Nocturne the Night Widow being in Albania? I can see that happening. Random chance, even if I thought it was Veluta Lunata at first. But Nocturne AND Arbiter Sands both? Now it's starting to feel contrived, like we're pretty much just reusing any Arachnos operatives with names attached to them. I half expect to run into Bane Spider Ruben deeper into the cave. And why are Nocturne and Sands working together anyway? She tried to have him killed and he had her arrested. Approximately half of Faultline explores the story of how they hate each other and are constantly competing and ruining each other's operations. Why are they working together all of a sudden?

*James Harvan's outfit is quite cool, actually... Even if I'm not sure why he looks like a 1930s African explorer. Albania isn't exactly the Congo, after all. Still, nice look.

*Wait, "Doctor Harvan?" I thought he was a professor? Those aren't the same thing. Now, I don't know if it's different in the US, but where I come from, "doctor" is a secondary scientific degree, appended to a primary degree. My father, for instance, is a Prof. Dr. of Biologial Sciences as his official degree, with "Professor" being his primary title. Those shouldn't be interchangeable. And then MY dialogue has Xanta refer to him as "Doctor?" Why? He has never been referred to as a "Doctor" up to this point. He has always been referred to either as Professor Harvan or just "The Professor."

*And another cutscene where I have to wait for the villains to stop monologuing before I can attack them. Honestly, why do I have to stick to the old tropes? Why do I have to wait for them to finish explaining their plan? Well, obviously, so Penny and Synapse can come help while Positron stands outside... Being heroic, but again - this could have happened mid-fight. In fact, why not have that happen when Ghost Widow drops to, say, 75% health - Penny and Synapse come as an ambush, but they con friendly to me. Job done, and I don't have to look at what might as well be a cutscene that just doesn't do the "super widescreen" thing. Also, again: WHY are Sands and Nocturne working together? They should at least be tossing snarky remarks at each other!

*Wow, Positron just promised "Doctor" Harvan that he'll be completely safe with the Phalanx. I would bet money that will be proven false either the very next mission or at least by the end of the arc. And why is Antonio Nash there? And why are the Freedom Phalanx there? As far as we knew, I was just going to go speak with the professor. How did they know Arachnos would be there? And even if they did, why did Nash go with them? He's a SERAPH pencil pusher. Moreover, why is he there when his "input" has been entirely irrelevant to the arc? Even from the start, he admits this is out of his depth, yet they brought him along for... What, exactly? He can't fight, he's not an expert... Aside from being associated with me, how is he even relevant?

*Oh, OK, so Positron "detected some heavy Arachnos activity" after I left. Now, if only there were some kind of invention which allowed people to communicate instantly between land and subersibles, some kind of... "Radio" by which they could WARN ME I was walking into a trap, that might have been useful. But, no, I guess travelling half-way around the world to Albania was the better solution. Seriously, this is the death of Statesman all over again - we can't warn him because in the 21st century, people move faster than wireless communications. One has to wonder what all that money spent laying cables along the bottom of the Atlantic went for. Might as well go back to the Pony Express, I guess.

*Also, this brings up a good point. Positron is "mobilising the Phalanx" to react to Arachnos searching for Pandora's Box, but I have to ask... What were they doing up to that point? I was the one time-travelling and going to Albania, and I was supposed to be working with them. You'd think that when I found out all that stuff about the Box, I'd take it to smarty Positron to figure out the next step, but it seems like neither Nash nor I actually did that. I wonder if they were standing by the phone waiting for me to call like a lovestruck girl. Well, yeah, Nash did bring in the Phalanx eventually, but that was at the end of mission 3, and I just have to wonder why it took so long.

*OK, I have to quote this bit from Harvan because there's so much to comment on:

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I must say, I did not expect my savior to be so well-associated with the Freedom Phalanx. I'll say to you what I said to Positron, Xanta. If you have the resources available to enable my research, and you can vouch for my safety, then you'll have my utmost cooperation. This may be the best chance I have of completing my life's work. To see the legendary Pandora's Box with my own eyes... why, I can hardly wait to get started! Hah!
First of all, we have a redundancy: "I must say"/"I'll say." Secondly, if I can save his life AND pay for his research THEN he'll help me. What if I can't? Is he going to ask me to talk to the hand? And then he goes on to talk about how this is his best chance to complete his life's work, but what if I can't comply with his terms? It's just really awkwardly worded, is all.

*Also, this is the third conversation I've had this mission. So it's had three conversation and a cutscene. Mission 2 also consisted of three conversations and almost no fighting, plus a quasi-cutscene. Mission 1 was essentially three boss fights with lots of dialogue and a conversation. I think so far Mission 3 is the only ACTUAL mission I've run to this point. Come on, guys! This is SSA1 writing, and I thought you were doing better this time around. Please, give me a larger instance with more spawns than conversations. I beg of you!

*And then there's "making Superman look bad so you can make Batman look good." I'm in agreement that this is a bad way to put the player over. It's not enough that the Phalanx need my help, but Positron has to explain how they're lost without me. This really wasn't necessary. You can thank me and praise me without simultaneously discrediting the only real super group we have in the game... Any more than SSA1 already discredited them. Oi!

*And again - WHY was Nash in Albania? I never had to speak with him, so why was he there? Did he just want to see the world?

*And right after this, Antonio Nash's debriefing has me chuckling to myself. "I'm not sure how much help I can be to you, Xanta, but I'll give it my all." Well, apparently you were of enough help for the Phalanx to take you to Albania. Or is it the other way around? Oh, I know! The Freedom Phalanx didn't have a map, so they needed Nash to take them to Albania. He was there to show them the way. OK, now it makes sense. O_o

I'm moving on to Mission 5 and I pray to Cow and Chicken the last mission is a step up, because LORDY!


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Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
*Wait, "Doctor Harvan?" I thought he was a professor? Those aren't the same thing. Now, I don't know if it's different in the US, but where I come from, "doctor" is a secondary scientific degree, appended to a primary degree. My father, for instance, is a Prof. Dr. of Biologial Sciences as his official degree, with "Professor" being his primary title. Those shouldn't be interchangeable. And then MY dialogue has Xanta refer to him as "Doctor?" Why? He has never been referred to as a "Doctor" up to this point. He has always been referred to either as Professor Harvan or just "The Professor."
In the US, a professor is a person with a Doctorate that teaches in a University. All Professors are Doctors (posses a Doctorate Degree,) although not all Doctors are Professors.

No doubt the authors didn't consider that the term might be defined differently by international players' native protocols. An error, but a relatively understandable one IMO.

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I'm moving on to Mission 5 and I pray to Cow and Chicken the last mission is a step up, because LORDY!


 

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Time travel is a can of worms if you don't impose some kind of ruleset to it.
Hasn't stopped them yet, and isn't likely too in the future.

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I know the man is not a physicist, but he's still a scientist - chemist, I believe - working on the physiological effects of Superadine on the human body.
No, he's the old GIFT starting Contact in Atlas. His mutant power was the ability to solve any mathematical problem...which means he wouldn't be found orienting new superheroes, he'd be living in a room with no windows reading encrypted intercepts for the rest of his life, but whatever.

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Lastly... Where does this leave the Path of the Dark?
Cimerora pretty much trashed that arc when it was introduced; the (entirely gratuitous) use of Cimerora in the Dark Astoria material and the reference in SSA1 set fire to what was left.

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OK, right off the bat, Antonio Nash repeats Venture's argument on mystical things - we don't know if it's magic, but it looks like it and feels like it so it might as well be magic.
No. That's not it.

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Why are all the Warrior spawns in that mission patrols? It's not really a bad thing or a good thing, but it makes the mission really chaotic.
It's a trick Architects have been using in MA practically since it was released; we quickly figured out that using up all the spawn points was a much better idea than forty guys pounding their fists in a warehouse.

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Huh... Why does Odysseus in this arc have a different description than in The Magician's arc? This one's better, by the way. I love that he has a real name - David Hill - with "Odysseus" being just a moniker.
Because this model is taken from the Mortimer Kal SF. Odysseus' name has been known for a while...since the first Top Cow storyline at least.

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Wait, "Doctor Harvan?" I thought he was a professor? Those aren't the same thing. Now, I don't know if it's different in the US, but where I come from, "doctor" is a secondary scientific degree, appended to a primary degree. My father, for instance, is a Prof. Dr. of Biologial Sciences as his official degree, with "Professor" being his primary title.
It is. Ph.D's get to use the "Dr." title; "Professor" is just the guy teaching your class, who may be a grad student.

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In fact, why not have that happen when Ghost Widow drops to, say, 75% health - Penny and Synapse come as an ambush, but they con friendly to me. Job done, and I don't have to look at what might as well be a cutscene that just doesn't do the "super widescreen" thing.
Because by the time they actually spawn and enter the fight you might have killed everyone already and thus not had the chance to actually experience the awesomeness of having Penny Yin come to your rescue.

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Also, this brings up a good point. Positron is "mobilising the Phalanx" to react to Arachnos searching for Pandora's Box, but I have to ask... What were they doing up to that point?
Six-slotting Epic Fail and gathering salvage for the Butt Monkey purple IO set to slot in it.


Current Blog Post: "Why I am an Atheist..."
"And I say now these kittens, they do not get trained/As we did in the days when Victoria reigned!" -- T. S. Eliot, "Gus, the Theatre Cat"

 

Posted

Hm. I'd suggest running this again red side - I haven't run the hero version, but it looks like they may have swapped mission 2; the red version has you fighting Imperious until - at about 75% - he decides that maybe you're actually a good guy and has a nice friendly (but ultimately pointless) chat. Which I thought was rather odd for a villain; I'd been expecting to beat him down to nothing and interrogate him once he fell. It'd make much more sense the other way around, with a villain being blase about Romulus' plans, and the hero talking to Imperious.


 

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Originally Posted by Venture View Post
Because by the time they actually spawn and enter the fight you might have killed everyone already and thus not had the chance to actually experience the awesomeness of having Penny Yin come to your rescue.
I only noticed Penny and Posi when they were still spinning in GW's hold animation after the fight was over.


 

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Mission 5:

*Already I have a problem with this. First of all, Nash mentions how Harvan has delivered more than his other sources and wait... He has other sources? Since when? I thought I was his only agent and my wild goose chase his only source. In fact, just prior to me going to look for "Doctor" Harvan, Nash told me that "it's better than nothing," implying he has nothing else. So when did he get "sources?" Why not just say that Professor Harvan has made a break-through? Speaking of which...

*Harvan found the key to Pandora's box. OK, how? What did he do to find it? What does Harvan do that any other Greek historian or archaeologist couldn't do with his research notes? I get that there has to be something special about the man, in the same vein as Indiana Jones being more than JUST an archaeologist (along with not actually being one), but what, exactly, is it that sets Harvan apart? Does he have a knack for finding ancient document sources? Does he have extensive knowledge of ancient history? Is he psychic? Aside from "because he's a plot device," why exactly did I recruit Harvan? Ground me here, please.

*So the "key" is in Oranbega. OK, why? How did a Greek artefact end up in North America? I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's worth addressing, ESPECIALLY since Oranbega has been lost for 14 000 years, so the Oranbegans couldn't have brought it with them. So how did it get here? Just drop me a single sentence. Say the Spanish found it and brought it to the New World during the great archaeological discoveries period, it got stolen by the locals and brought to the Circle, the same way the idol of MoT was brought over from Cimerora. Or, here's a better idea - say that someone from Cimerora planted it on Marcus Aurelius' ship and THAT'S how the key came here. Just... Something.

This is the sort of thing I rile against when I criticise vague writing. We bring up abstract plot points and give them no grounding in the actual fictional world, with their only function being to prop up the existing plot. Even when these things can be solved in a single sentence. "It's somewhere in the City of Oranbega. Professor Harvan estimates that it might have been shipped here from the ancient fort town of Cimerora. It's possible this Romulus person you met might somehow be involved." That's all you need to say.

*Also, we're back to Montague's speech pattern of saying "You up for..." as a sentence opener, even though this doesn't match Antonio Nash's speech mannerisms thus far at all. Instead of "You up for some spelunking?" why not just say "I think you should help them out?"

*Something doesn't add up here. Aren't I working with the Freedom Phalanx? I mean, I found Harvan, yet I'm not included in the Oranbega mapping operation? Why does Nash have to be the one to tell me about the operation which has apparently already started without me? Why wouldn't they wait for my help? Positron just finished telling me they couldn't do this without me, yet now they're trying to do this without me? Am I supposed to be surprised when they fail?

*And the instance sends me to Echo: Dark Astoria. I can't even make a joke about that.

*"Positron appears to have already established a safe zone inside Oranbega. Time to establish your plan of action." says my entry message. I can't decide if this is a bad redundancy or if it's done deliberately for style. I will say, however, that this is the first time I've seen the phrase "to establish a plan." Formulate, maybe, or put together, or even make a plan, but never establish.

*Harvan postulates that Oranbega must be thousands of years old (over 14 000, yes) and must have originally been built underground and sunk. Which is a prudent assertion for an acheologist, but as an arc that's concurrent with The Envoy of Shadows and following The Library of Souls, we already kind of sort of knew that and any archaeologist worth his salt would have read up on Oranbega. For reference, Akharist, the Circle traitor goes face in the Library of Souls, and begins explaining the history of Oranbega 30-35. 35-40, he actually writes a book about it. This arc is 35-50, and I'm running it on a level 50 Incarnate.

*OK, so apparently my joke about Dr. Harvan being Indiana Jones was more accurate than I thought, considering his father is apparently Henry Jones Sr., by his description of the man. This is sort of the same complaint I had with the endless Ghostbusters references in Night Ward, but at least this is the first and so far only blatant movie reference so far, meaning I can give it a pass. The rest is just a similarity of character traits. However, this is about as blatant as the Television contact describing the shows we're supposed to be watching in such detail as to basically call them out by name, and thus it has already expended the arcs entire allotment of reference points.

*Also, colour me surprised that Positron's incursion into Oranbega hasn't gone horribly wrong and ended up with many Longbow agents (why are they working with Longbow?) dead and Posi and the Professor captured. Sure, they got 10 feet from the door, but they're safe, and that actually makes me quite happy. I guess Posi is the one getting a push this time, but so long as the Phalanx shows competence, I'm happy.

*Wait, has Lilithu always looked like this? As in, like a green Succubus with custom corns? ParagonWiki suggest so, but... Wow, it's been a long time since I've run MuDrakhan's arc, apparently. And why IS she there, anyway? I thought she got summoned on the Rogue Isles and immediately stuffed into a Spirit Trap via Mu'Drakhan. What am I missing? When did she have time to come States-side and kidnap Fusionette? And is this before or after Fusionette joined the Vanguard? She has the boots, but...

*Also, wait, was Limithu supposed to have been empowered by Pandora's Box? Fusionette's dialogue suggests that she was, but Lilithu wasn't any easier now than she's ever been before, plus she wasn't glowing. Are we missing an aura here?

*That's funny. Fusionette raises an eyebrow "Working with the Phalanx now, huh?" Yeah, it's so surprising I didn't know I was working with them until you told me. Because up until now, they've been almost entirely uninvolved with anything I've done and when they did show up, Positron went on ahead without me and didn't even so much as drop a warning. It's a good thing Nash remembered to tell me.

*The final conversation, once again, scrolled by far too fast for me to read it. I'd get to about half-way through reading one caption box before the next appeared. I'm reviewing my NPC tab right now, but this is not the proper way to experience a cutscene. Also - music. Please, if you'll have a cutscene with a major revelation (even if it's not that surprising), then you need to put music behind it for effect. Not necessarily "dun dun duuun" but just... Something.

*Nash's final debriefing is pretty solid. He does admit he was more or less useless, which is more or less how you build a contact when you want to present a story arc with the hero as an actual protagonist. I approve of it wholeheartedly. It's just enough ego-stroking to be meaningful without going overboard and throwing established characters under the bus.

*The final mission had quite a bit of fighting and not too many interruptions. I'm happy about that. It was a nice scrap and the conclusion, though open-ended for the next episode, is solid. This ends on a high note, critically speaking, and that's always a good thing. After the fourth mission, I wasn't very optimistic.

*OK, explain something to me: What was the point of the first two missions? The Professor Echo mission existed solely to set up the Cimerora mission, but the Cimerora mission accomplished nothing beyond "Your princess is in another castle!" A good chunk of the story arc accomplishes nothing and serves only as padding. I don't want the arc to be shorter, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather get plot and character development instead of filler.

Overall thoughts

This one's really hard to call, honestly. On the one hand, the technical side of the writing is nearly spotless. No text errors, no faulty grammar, almost no redundancies. On the other hand, the actual writing style leaves a lot to be desired, hinging far too many minor and major plot threads on abstract elements that are not even addressed and relying on vagaries in place of explanations. Again, I remind you of Roy Cooling and his circuit-board-or-chip" abstract "tech." Things that can be explained with just a single sentence to give the story more grounding in the overworld and the overall canon should be given such explanations.

Gameplay-wise, this story is disappointing. Three out of five missions are mostly talking with very little fighting, two of the five missions are almost completely pointless and one of the "fighting" missions is all patrols. I really liked SSA2.1 because while it did have two "talking" missions, it did have three solid fighting missions. Instead of improving things, SSA2.2 regressed back towards SSA1 with every mission being awash in dialogues, even for things that didn't need to be dialogues. For instance, what, exactly, was there in the Azuria "dialogue" that wouldn't have been equally well-served as a clue? Or the Silos and Prometheus dialogues, for that matter? Or the Positron/Harvan dialogue? There are a few dialogues that have options in them, but there are far too many that didn't have to be dialogues. I honestly want to see more than half of every new story arc being devoted to what City of Heroes does best - action.

The plot itself isn't actually bad. Stripped of all the filler and cameos, it's a solid idea. Pandora's box is causing havoc and we need to find it. We learn that Indiana Jones might know where it is, recruit him and find the key to locating the box. In the meantime, we find out Arachnos and the Circle are interested. It's a pretty solid foundation for a pretty solid story. But it's crammed full of guest appearances, often by people who make no sense to do what they're doing or act like they're acting. Prometheus doesn't sound like himself, Silos is skittish like a kitten when he should be self-assured, Nocturne and Sands are working together, Penny is in this AGAIN (why not swap her with BABs? Or Numina? Or anyone else for her short cameo?).

Honestly, the whole thing feels like it might have been a pretty fun story if it WEREN'T an SSA, because it seems like our mission designers try to make everything BIG for SSAs and in the process forego basic storytelling. SSA2.2 is all flash and very little refinement. It's huge in size but small in content. It feels bloated by filler and things that didn't need to be there butting out legitimately good content and solid gameplay, and that's really disappointing. SSA2.1 let me play the game budgeted its talking segments. SSA2.2 feels like a TNA show - lots of talking, but they aren't saying anything that can't be summed up in a few sentences, and by the end of the show I'm yelling "Wrestle! Wrestle!" at my screen. It replaces action with talking, yet that talking doesn't have almost any story in it. It's mostly padding, and that's the one thing you can't afford on content that's produced on a tight schedule.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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Originally Posted by BViking View Post
In the US, a professor is a person with a Doctorate that teaches in a University. All Professors are Doctors (posses a Doctorate Degree,) although not all Doctors are Professors.
Huh... OK, I wasn't aware of this. I know we have doctorates, as well - two types, in fact. One you can achieve when you're still an assistant or an associate which I don't think carries over when you become a Professor. I also know for a fact that here a "Professor" is an actual academic degree and not at all linked to leading classes, though most titled Professors still do. I also have quite a few colleagues who are Doctors without actually having an academic degree proper.

I guess that's different in the US.

*edit*
So there are significant differences. I couldn't find an article about my own education system, but ours is a very close mirror to the Russian one, being a former Soviet country. This does a somewhat decent job of explaining what I mean.

That said, I still don't believe swapping titles in the middle of a mission is a good idea. You don't see us swap to saying Doctor Echo, right?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

 

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The villain arc is much better anyhow.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
*OK, explain something to me: What was the point of the first two missions? The Professor Echo mission existed solely to set up the Cimerora mission, but the Cimerora mission accomplished nothing beyond "Your princess is in another castle!" A good chunk of the story arc accomplishes nothing and serves only as padding. I don't want the arc to be shorter, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather get plot and character development instead of filler.
I would imagine the Echo mission would award the O-portal if you didn't already have it since it involved a time traveler and you need to go see Cosmic Smurf later on.


 

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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow View Post
*Serious dialogue crime here. Professor Echo asks "Has historical time travel as an investigative tool even crossed your mind?" and my only response is "No... Well, not until now, I suppose." Oi... Let's review. By this point, Xanta has travelled to ancient Cimerora to discover the history of MoT, travelled back in time to gather information from the 5th Column in the past, defeated a Rikti commander in order to investigate the consequences in the future and... Oh! Gone to the end of time to give Ramiel that crystal to bring back and unlock her own Incarnate status. But no, time travel never crossed her mind. What is this I don't even... Why not just add an extra option which says "Yes, it has crossed my mind, but what are you talking about, exactly?" and have Echo explain it? It stops our characters from making continuity-breaking statements.
The way I look at it, you only just found out about this brand new thread at the very tail end of SSA2.1. The first mission of SSA2.2 you are just about to start trying to look for it, when an invaded Longbow base distracts you with generic hero duty. In the middle of that invasion, Dr Echo asks about time travel. If we work with the idea that the chapters are sequential, then your character hasn't had ANY time to think about where to find this item in the here and now, much less put any thought to finding it 'somewhere' in the mists of time.


The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by M_I_Abrahms View Post
The way I look at it, you only just found out about this brand new thread at the very tail end of SSA2.1. The first mission of SSA2.2 you are just about to start trying to look for it, when an invaded Longbow base distracts you with generic hero duty. In the middle of that invasion, Dr Echo asks about time travel. If we work with the idea that the chapters are sequential, then your character hasn't had ANY time to think about where to find this item in the here and now, much less put any thought to finding it 'somewhere' in the mists of time.
But the question is more about whether the character has considered using time travel not as a means to change things but as a means to find out facts. Which, if you've done anything in Ouroboros... You pretty much have. These days, you can start running the Pilgirm's arc at level 14, and that arc includes two instances of time-travel for the purposes of intelligence-gathering - once to literally get information from the past that doesn't exist today and once to see the results of actions which would otherwise take many years to develop. SSA2.2 takes place 35+, so the only way that line is a safe bet is if the writer assumes people went from 14 to 35 without running anything in Ouroboros, which isn't a safe bet.

And again, a single extra text screen fixes that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcanaville View Post
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.