Question about Arbiter Hawk's redraw statement last Coffee Talk
By
Bronze Knight,
Posted on: 2012-08-02 13:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I was wondering about that...
I imagine *LOTS* of folks want to pair Dual Pistols with Martial Combat, including me (likely my first blaster to get past lvl 12).
But... the pistols redrawing every time I kick something might be enough to make me not bother - it is that big a deal...
I don't think even Arcanaville has tested TW to state what is going on here.
Considering how many times I've been shot by a big green beam of death, or stuck in a circle of psionic death, or caught in a patch of burning blue death because of redraw, I'd rather they just remove the effect entirely. Make all weapon draws work like Fire Sword/Ice Sword/Stone Mallet and just materialize in your hand.
Would it be a shame to remove the animations? Yes. They are immerse. But as the game moves more and more from DPS races to action-oriented combat, this is steadily becoming a greater and greater issue.
But while we're on the subject, when are they going to fix the Titan Weapons Momentum animation-while-out-of-combat rooting bug? I can use Build Up on my Broad Sword character while moving no problem.
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Perhaps just give a 'no redraw' option in power customization. People could still use it if it helps their immersion, and other people can not use it to keep from dying horribly.
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Originally Posted by Demon_Shell
Considering how many times I've been shot by a big green beam of death, or stuck in a circle of psionic death, or caught in a patch of burning blue death because of redraw, I'd rather they just remove the effect entirely. Make all weapon draws work like Fire Sword/Ice Sword/Stone Mallet and just materialize in your hand.
Would it be a shame to remove the animations? Yes. They are immerse. But as the game moves more and more from DPS races to action-oriented combat, this is steadily becoming a greater and greater issue. But while we're on the subject, when are they going to fix the Titan Weapons Momentum animation-while-out-of-combat rooting bug? I can use Build Up on my Broad Sword character while moving no problem. |
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I suspect Titan Weapons actually uses 2 separate combat stances, one for Momentum, one for without it. |
Originally Posted by Ultimus
So what does Titan Weapons do differently here that cannot be applied to all sets in general to eliminate redraw?
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Perhaps the Momentum stance allows for other powers to be used while the sword remains out. Or perhaps Burn is a power like Radiation Infection or Enervating Field that does not cause redraw regardless of the weapon set used with it. I know for a fact that you will not put your pistols away when activating Rad toggles.
Maybe it's Burn rather than Titan Weapons that causes it?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Which is hilarious, because /Dark will incur redraw.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Or perhaps Burn is a power like Radiation Infection or Enervating Field that does not cause redraw regardless of the weapon set used with it. I know for a fact that you will not put your pistols away when activating Rad toggles.
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No because you can chain Gloom, Burn, Boxing, Kick, whatever. Its not just burn.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I suspect Titan Weapons actually uses 2 separate combat stances, one for Momentum, one for without it.
Perhaps the Momentum stance allows for other powers to be used while the sword remains out. Or perhaps Burn is a power like Radiation Infection or Enervating Field that does not cause redraw regardless of the weapon set used with it. I know for a fact that you will not put your pistols away when activating Rad toggles. Maybe it's Burn rather than Titan Weapons that causes it? |
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My TW/Elec puts his weapon away when activating a power with momentum active. What happens is the second TW power IMMEDIATELY activates, but the effect of the power is delayed by the draw time/non-momentum animation difference.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
I suspect Titan Weapons actually uses 2 separate combat stances, one for Momentum, one for without it.
Perhaps the Momentum stance allows for other powers to be used while the sword remains out. Or perhaps Burn is a power like Radiation Infection or Enervating Field that does not cause redraw regardless of the weapon set used with it. I know for a fact that you will not put your pistols away when activating Rad toggles. Maybe it's Burn rather than Titan Weapons that causes it? |
Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Still though you are not stuck in extra animation/rooted time. Hence, it is like having no redraw. Why can't this be applied to all powers?
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Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
My TW/Elec puts his weapon away when activating a power with momentum active. What happens is the second TW power IMMEDIATELY activates, but the effect of the power is delayed by the draw time/non-momentum animation difference.
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The only reason Synapse/whoever made the call to leave it left it that way was because it was a TRADE-OFF. You wasted Momentum time on non TW powers in exchange for no draw when you came back. It wasn't clearly advantageous either way.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Still though you are not stuck in extra animation/rooted time. Hence, it is like having no redraw. Why can't this be applied to all powers?
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Deamus the Fallen - 50 DM/EA Brute - Lib
Dragos Bahtiam - 50 Fire/Ice Blaster - Lib
/facepalm - Apply Directly to the Forehead!
Formally Dragos_Bahtiam - Abbreviate to DSL - Warning, may contain sarcasm
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Im very good at taking a problem and making it worse.
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Ok this then goes back to the original statement in the first post, Arbiter Hawk's reasoning for having redraw was that if they coded it would cause problems.|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
The only reason Synapse/whoever made the call to leave it left it that way was because it was a TRADE-OFF. You wasted Momentum time on non TW powers in exchange for no draw when you came back. It wasn't clearly advantageous either way.
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So how was TW coded differently and why can't it be applied?
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Armor sets work differently with weapons than offensive sets. They're made to take weapons into consideration; on the flip side, using powers like Power Push or the new Ki Strike or even Fire Sword Circle and NOT having redraw would make weapon-drawn characters just look bad. Imagine your Beam Rifle glued to your palm at a stupid angle while you use Power Push. If Blaster Secondaries didn't cause redraw some of the effects would look very, very stupid. Armor sets, used with Weapons, usually require very little animation and the weapon can remain drawn.
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Ok this then goes back to the original statement in the first post, Arbiter Hawk's reasoning for having redraw was that if they coded it would cause problems.
So how was TW coded differently and why can't it be applied? |
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Just for clarification: Each Titan Weapons attack (barring Follow Through and Whirling Smash) has two different animations: one for "no momentum" and one for "momentum". When you activate an attack, the game checks to see whether or not you have momentum and calls up the appropriate animation.
Apply it to the conversation as you wish; I'm outta here.
Positron: "There are no bugs [in City of Heroes], just varying degrees of features."
Ask him yourself, that's what PMs are for.
As a DP/Traps and AR/Devices player I just don't get you people that hate redraw to the point of not playing weapon sets. Hell I still want munitions mastery for Cors.
Captain Den'Rath 53* Merk/Traps MM, Rivona 50Energy Blast/Time Cor,Victoria Von Heilwig 53* Dual Pistols/Traps Cor, Crab Spider Webguard 53* SOA, Accela 53* Bot/FF MM,Valkyrie's Executor 53* Broadsword/Shield Def Scrap. On FREEDOM! @Knight Of Bronze
"Hypocrisy, the human inherent." "Let not this work be wasted, apply yourself always."
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Generally the issue is from two perspectives:|
Originally Posted by Bronze Knight
As a DP/Traps and AR/Devices player I just don't get you people that hate redraw to the point of not playing weapon sets. Hell I still want munitions mastery for Cors.
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1) From a min / max perspective, its a serious DPS loss. Weapon Sets are not superior to non-weapon sets even when redraw is not accounted for. Katana, DP, BS, etc are at the bottom of the barrel in a pylon test.
2) From an aesthetical standpoint, it makes chains not feel smooth and they are more rigid. Instead of instantly attacking you watch your character draw a blade or weapon in the middle of a bunch of foes.
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Pylons test nothing but single target DPS, which means they have very limited relevance to the majority of the game. Most people from a min/max standpoint care far more about AoE DPS than ST DPS. Do all weapon sets have lower AoE damage output than the non-weapon sets? Since this is supposed to be from a min/max standpoint and all...
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Originally Posted by Ultimus
Generally the issue is from two perspectives:
1) From a min / max perspective, its a serious DPS loss. Weapon Sets are not superior to non-weapon sets even when redraw is not accounted for. Katana, DP, BS, etc are at the bottom of the barrel in a pylon test. |
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i make stuff...
Well Titan Weapons is a weapon set, and it apparently has the highest ST and AoE damage of all the melee sets.
Last Coffee Talk Arbiter Hawk stated that if the new Martial Combat set did not cause redraw it would cause an issue. Specifically, he stated that if they programmed the Martial Combat to not incur redraw for Dual Pistols as an example, whenever a different set tried to use Martial Combat it would try and draw Dual Pistols.
How does it work for Titan Weapons then? Titan Weapons with momentum does not incur redraw. You can chain something like Follow Through, Crushing Blow, Burn, Rend while under momentum and not incur redraw. I believe you can even prove this in a demo record.
So what does Titan Weapons do differently here that cannot be applied to all sets in general to eliminate redraw?