The Rain, it's cold


Adeon Hawkwood

 

Posted

Recently, someone in a different thread asked me sarcastically if Blasters would trade Build Up for Freezing Rain. He dared me to "pole" the Blaster forum. So here I am; I put it to you, gentle reader:

Ignoring conceptual preferences, would you accept a wholesale trade of Build Up for Freezing Rain?

This is strictly a mechanical question. That is, do you feel the self-contained, immediate burst-damage bonus from Build Up is more or less useful than a 20-foot-radius resistance debuff that also slows and knocks down foes? The powers' breakdown follows:

Build Up (Blaster version) - 90 second recharge, 1.17 activation, 5.2 Endurance, confers +100% damage buff and +15% ToHit buff for 10 seconds.

Freezing Rain (Controller version) - 60 second recharge, 2.03 activation, 18.2 Endurance, summons pseudo pet Freezing Rain, which has the following attributes:
  • 20-foot radius
  • 15 second duration
  • 75 ticks of 0.33 Cold Damage
  • -50% movement speed debuff (for the duration of the rain)
  • -40% recharge debuff (for the duration of the rain)
  • 5% chance of knockdown (per 0.2 seconds)
  • -30% Defense debuff for 30 seconds
  • -30% Resistance debuff for 30 seconds
  • Triggers avoid in NPC opponents (for the duration of the rain)
  • (*weaker versions of the slow and recharge debuffs last for 30 seconds, persisting after the rain has finished.)
Obviously, if Blasters were to be given Freezing Rain, there's a solid chance that the power would have weaker debuff effects (and probably stronger damage, but FR isn't known for its damage output) due to the design intent behind AT scalars. This isn't intended to be a realistic question; it was posed to me rhetorically, and the discussion that gave birth to the question centered around comparing the performance of the two powers as they exist within their respective Archetypes.

And srs-business forum acrimony aside, I think it's an interesting hypothetical. Keep in mind that damage buffs boost your offense by a proportion of your base damage, whereas Resistance debuffs boost your offense against affected foes by a proportion of your total damage. That is, if you have ED-compliant damage slotting in your powers (and no other damage buffs from Assault, IOs, Aim, or Defiance), Build Up represents a 100 / 195 = 51.2% net damage buff. Under the same conditions, Freezing Rain would represent a 30% net damage buff.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
He dared me to "pole" the Blaster forum. So here I am
Pretty sure you meant "poll." At least I hope you did.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granite Agent View Post
Pretty sure you meant "poll." At least I hope you did.
Nope. He asked me to "pole" the forum. I was just quoting my interrogator.

(I take no responsibility for the double entendre!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Recently, someone in a different thread asked me sarcastically if Blasters would trade Build Up for Freezing Rain. He dared me to "pole" the Blaster forum. So here I am; I put it to you, gentle reader:

Ignoring conceptual preferences, would you accept a wholesale trade of Build Up for Freezing Rain?

This is strictly a mechanical question. That is, do you feel the self-contained, immediate burst-damage bonus from Build Up is more or less useful than a 20-foot-radius resistance debuff that also slows and knocks down foes? The powers' breakdown follows:
Build Up (Blaster version) - 90 second recharge, 1.17 activation, 5.2 Endurance, confers +100% damage buff and +15% ToHit buff for 10 seconds.

Freezing Rain (Controller version) - 60 second recharge, 2.03 activation, 18.2 Endurance, summons pseudo pet Freezing Rain, which has the following attributes:
  • 20-foot radius
  • 15 second duration
  • 75 ticks of 0.33 Cold Damage
  • -50% movement speed debuff (for the duration of the rain)
  • -40% recharge debuff (for the duration of the rain)
  • 5% chance of knockdown (per 0.2 seconds)
  • -30% Defense debuff for 30 seconds
  • -30% Resistance debuff for 30 seconds
  • Triggers avoid in NPC opponents (for the duration of the rain)
  • (*weaker versions of the slow and recharge debuffs last for 30 seconds, persisting after the rain has finished.)
Obviously, if Blasters were to be given Freezing Rain, there's a solid chance that the power would have weaker debuff effects (and probably stronger damage, but FR isn't known for its damage output) due to the design intent behind AT scalars. This isn't intended to be a realistic question; it was posed to me rhetorically, and the discussion that gave birth to the question centered around comparing the performance of the two powers as they exist within their respective Archetypes.

And srs-business forum acrimony aside, I think it's an interesting hypothetical. Keep in mind that damage buffs boost your offense by a proportion of your base damage, whereas Resistance debuffs boost your offense against affected foes by a proportion of your total damage. That is, if you have ED-compliant damage slotting in your powers (and no other damage buffs from Assault, IOs, Aim, or Defiance), Build Up represents a 100 / 195 = 51.2% net damage buff. Under the same conditions, Freezing Rain would represent a 30% net damage buff.
I'll keep my build up and aim thanks.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
I'll keep my build up and aim thanks.
Fair enough, but for the sake of clarity: the question had nothing to do with Aim. In our hypothetical scenario, you would keep any powers in your Primary set. The question asks simply whether you would trade Build Up directly for Freezing Rain.

Build Up's proposed effect on Snipes in I-24 is also irrelevant for the purpose of this hypothetical. Just power to power, which would you prefer?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

I think I'd take Freezing Rain in place of Build Up. Not just for the resistance debuff, the knockdown is extremely useful as well.

That being said both of my Blasters are Devices and I'm less sure I'd be willing to trade Targeting Drone for Freezing Rain.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I think I'd take Freezing Rain in place of Build Up. Not just for the resistance debuff, the knockdown is extremely useful as well.

That being said both of my Blasters are Devices and I'm less sure I'd be willing to trade Targeting Drone for Freezing Rain.
That's an interesting take -- the bit about Targeting Drone, I mean. A lot of people seem convinced that Build Up is better than Targeting Drone (again, ignoring for the sake of this discussion that TD is slated to give Devices access to perma-fast snipes in Issue 24).

I suppose I should just give up the ghost here; I'm not very good at feigning neutrality anyway. To me, it's clear the Freezing Rain is a more powerful singular option than Build Up. To me, the comparison isn't even close. Freezing Rain gives you a comparable damage boost (assuming you have a certain threshold of damage enhancement otherwise); Freezing Rain increases your whole team's damage against the relevant targets, and Freezing Rain's debuff is more-or-less permanently sustainable with very little effort, whereas the best-case uptime (at the recharge cap) on Build Up is 10 / (90 / 5) = 55%.

Freezing Rain's control effects and the Defense debuff (which effectively moots Build Up's ToHit buff except in edge cases) are icing.

But I find the question interesting because Freezing Rain and Build Up, for all that they share a similar broad purpose (boosting damage), are difficult to compare objectively. Particularly for Blasters, Build Up can be said to represent a play style as much as it represents a mechanical benefit. So although the on-paper comparison favors Freezing Rain, I'm honestly not sure how people will respond to the question; there are conceivably builds for which Build Up is a better fit.

On the other hand, and at the risk of leaning towards controversy, it's also conceivable that certain respondents will refuse to divorce themselves from their character concept (for which Freezing Rain may not seem appropriate) long enough to consider the question practically.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
That's an interesting take -- the bit about Targeting Drone, I mean. A lot of people seem convinced that Build Up is better than Targeting Drone (again, ignoring for the sake of this discussion that TD is slated to give Devices access to perma-fast snipes in Issue 24).
I've never claimed to be a perfectly rational player. There are a few things that I really hate and two of those are missing and not being able to see enemies. Targeting Drone takes care of both of those for me on a permanent basis which makes it a lot more valuable to me than Build Up.

Technically Freezing Rain + Tactics + Kismet would be better than Targeting Drone in most situations (the exception would be in the presence of strong ToHit Debuffs which TD resists and Tactics doesn't) but giving up the higher To Hit Buff and the To Hit DeBuff Resistance of Targeting Drone would still be hard for me.

Regarding the character concept thing I'm tacitly assuming that each set gets a thematically appropriate Freezing Rain clone .


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood View Post
I've never claimed to be a perfectly rational player. There are a few things that I really hate and two of those are missing and not being able to see enemies. Targeting Drone takes care of both of those for me on a permanent basis which makes it a lot more valuable to me than Build Up.

Technically Freezing Rain + Tactics + Kismet would be better than Targeting Drone in most situations (the exception would be in the presence of strong ToHit Debuffs which TD resists and Tactics doesn't) but giving up the higher To Hit Buff and the To Hit DeBuff Resistance of Targeting Drone would still be hard for me.
Heh, I'm not necessarily a rational player either. For example, the amount of time I've spent trying to shoe-horn Afterburner on otherwise (and so-called) "optimized" builds is downright shameful.

And I don't necessarily disagree with you about Targeting Drone, either. Targeting Drone may even be harder to compare directly to Build Up than Freezing Rain is to compare to BU. It's one of those powers that can have a deceptively high qualitative value.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

You can never have too much Freezing Rain.

You have to be huffing glue to choose Build Up over Freezing Rain.

Stating that, I can only go that way because you said, "Ignoring conceptual preferences". Conceptually I prefer Build Up (and other self buffs) for blasters, but the power level of Freezing Rain is impossible to ignore.


Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

Posted

Yes, what StratoNexus said...you can never have to much Freezing Rain lol.



 

Posted

Freezing Rain, or a thematic equivalent.


Global name: @k26dp

 

Posted

Freezing Rain every day and twice on Sundays. It's one of the great powers in the game.

I'm not going to do the number crunching to see how a +dmg buff that lasts for 10 seconds out of however many seconds to recharge, versus a -res debuff that's perma and can stack. For one person maybe it's close but I'm sure Sleet wins in the end. Add a teammate... or a 2nd, or a 24th, and Sleet pulls so far ahead it becomes silly to choose BU.


Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

I would keep Build Up, but for a reason I suspect will differ from the reasons anyone else may have.

When I'm in a fight, my hands are at wasd and the numpad. To use any sort of dropped, Location-aoe type power like Freezing Rain, I have to move my hand over to my mouse, FIND THE PANCAKING MOUSE POINTER, drop the power, then put my hand back where I had it. By contrast, most everyone who has Build Up has it in a tray where it can be activated by numpad6.

Speaking only for myself, give me the latter. Nothing to do with better-or-worse quantitatively, all about ease of use.

Later on,
Gate


@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.


I had a great time playing with you!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher View Post
I would keep Build Up, but for a reason I suspect will differ from the reasons anyone else may have.

When I'm in a fight, my hands are at wasd and the numpad. To use any sort of dropped, Location-aoe type power like Freezing Rain, I have to move my hand over to my mouse, FIND THE PANCAKING MOUSE POINTER, drop the power, then put my hand back where I had it. By contrast, most everyone who has Build Up has it in a tray where it can be activated by numpad6.

Speaking only for myself, give me the latter. Nothing to do with better-or-worse quantitatively, all about ease of use.

Later on,
Gate


On my characters with a Build-Up type power, it's either in Tray 1 (as part of my attack chain) or in tray 2 slot 1 for a quick alt-1 activation.

I do agree with the "find the PANCAKING mouse pointer" being a HUGE issue, yes, but I fixed that problem on my dark/dark troller (for Tar Patch) by binding the power's slot to clicking my mouse wheel button. The targeting reticule is a LOT easier to see on the screen than the tiny pointer. I do the same thing with Hasten on my SS/INV brute (with Rage on auto).


Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm View Post
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher View Post
I would keep Build Up, but for a reason I suspect will differ from the reasons anyone else may have.

When I'm in a fight, my hands are at wasd and the numpad. To use any sort of dropped, Location-aoe type power like Freezing Rain, I have to move my hand over to my mouse, FIND THE PANCAKING MOUSE POINTER, drop the power, then put my hand back where I had it. By contrast, most everyone who has Build Up has it in a tray where it can be activated by numpad6.

Speaking only for myself, give me the latter. Nothing to do with better-or-worse quantitatively, all about ease of use.

Later on,
Gate
Hehe, I hear you. My bind for rain/placeable powers is shift+lclick, so if I hold down the shift button, I get the little placeable circle pulsing under my cursor (which makes it easier to find, btw), and then it's just a matter of pointing the cursor at the appropriate location, and clicking my left mouse button.

Works wonders. I can usually get the rain queued before the previous power has finished animating.

(Edit: And by that I don't mean to suggest that Gatecrasher should use my bind; UI preferences are a totally personal thing!)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

AG, we're probably miscommunicating here. What I mean is, on all of my various characters, if they've got BU, in all likelihood I've got in set up in a tray where it can be activated by numpad6. I am making no assumptions about anyone else.

Later on,
Gate


@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.


I had a great time playing with you!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatecrasher View Post
AG, we're probably miscommunicating here. What I mean is, on all of my various characters, if they've got BU, in all likelihood I've got in set up in a tray where it can be activated by numpad6. I am making no assumptions about anyone else.

Later on,
Gate
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH. That makes more sense. "Everyone" being "all of my characters with a Build-Up type power."

Snark redacted from previous post. My apologies, good sir. Hope this doesn't jeopardize your participation in the ITF run this evening?


Carl and Sons @Aurora Girl (Pinnacle)
Quote:
Originally Posted by EarthWyrm View Post
But I do understand that there is an internet rule that any bad idea must be presented by someone at least twice a year to remind everyone who hasn't already read every previous thread on the topic precisely why the idea is bad.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
I'm not going to do the number crunching to see how a +dmg buff that lasts for 10 seconds out of however many seconds to recharge, versus a -res debuff that's perma and can stack. For one person maybe it's close but I'm sure Sleet wins in the end. Add a teammate... or a 2nd, or a 24th, and Sleet pulls so far ahead it becomes silly to choose BU.
Yeah, the math isn't hard, but it's context-dependent. In other words, BU represents a smaller proportional boost as your other damage buffs rise (enhancements, Assault, IO bonuses, Musculature, Defiance, etc).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Let me see

10 seconds of 100% of base as bonus damage every 25 seconds or so.


or

30 seconds of 30% of total damage as bonus every 15 seconds and the enemies neutralized while I pound on them.


HMMMM

Freezing Rain please


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Let me see

10 seconds of 100% of base as bonus damage every 25 seconds or so.


or

30 seconds of 30% of total damage as bonus every 15 seconds and the enemies neutralized while I pound on them.


HMMMM

Freezing Rain please
Heh, assuming you can cast FR every 15 seconds (which, to be fair, is hard to do, build-wise; you'd need well over 400% total recharge), the comparison is even more lopsided. The RES debuff lasts for 30 seconds*, so in a protracted fight you could have a consistent -60% RES debuff.

(* - The last time I bothered paying attention, there was an odd bug with FR and Sleet that occasionally killed off the debuff after the last tick of the rain, cutting the debuff duration by half against the odd target.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build

 

Posted

Obitus, no sweat man. I do actually use shift-click on some of my characters to decent effect, but it just never feels natural to me, as my right hand is still doing the Hokey-Pokey across half my desk.

AG: I think I've got a scheduling conflict; would be the only reason to miss it.

Gate


@Generator
Mostly Pinnacle, with scattered alts on Liberty, Freedom, and Justice.


I had a great time playing with you!

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obitus View Post
Heh, assuming you can cast FR every 15 seconds (which, to be fair, is hard to do, build-wise; you'd need well over 400% total recharge), the comparison is even more lopsided. The RES debuff lasts for 30 seconds*, so in a protracted fight you could have a consistent -60% RES debuff.

(* - The last time I bothered paying attention, there was an odd bug with FR and Sleet that occasionally killed off the debuff after the last tick of the rain, cutting the debuff duration by half against the odd target.)
You only need 300% recharge and its well worth the effort the first 100% is free


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
You only need 300% recharge and its well worth the effort the first 100% is free
Yeah, I meant 400% total, or +300%. I prefer the total number, generally, because although it may not be intuitively obvious that the first 100% is free, the total number is more obviously relatable with the 500% cap number to which most of us have been exposed.

You need +300% recharge to get Freezing Rain's recharge time down to 15 seconds. You need something like +338% to get Freezing Rain's cycle time down to 15 seconds. Freezing Rain has a not-insignificant activation time, so if you want to double-stack the debuff on a technically "permable" basis, you need to reduce the power's recharge to about 13.7 seconds.

You may say that 2 seconds of downtime (on the double-stacked debuff) out of every 15 is insignificant in the grand scheme -- and I'd agree with you -- but in the interest of fairness (and in the interest of simplifying the math), the disclaimer is worth mentioning.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
Nice build