Overwhelming Force + Tornado after the last patch
By
Codewalker,
Posted on: 2012-07-15 23:16 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I can't find the patch note now, but I believe it's a deliberate nerf that also applies to Bonfire. The KB-KD chance should now be 40% in those powers.
I really should do something about this signature.
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As far as I know, the 40% thing was from the Coffee talk about i24 changes. Specifically what was mentioned is that in Tornado and Bonfire the KD chance was being reduced from 100% to 40% if the proc was slotted, but according to posters in the summary thread, the result was specifically mentioned as 40% chance to KD, 60% nothing. In other words, KB should still not be entering into the equation.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
I can't find the patch note now, but I believe it's a deliberate nerf that also applies to Bonfire. The KB-KD chance should now be 40% in those powers.
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Obviously subject to change before it goes live, but I'm positive that 40% change hasn't been put in place yet.
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton
How fast does Tornado pulse its KB? If it's quick enough, it seems to me that if the timing of processing all the info gets slightly jumbled on the server it could conceivably stack with itself.
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Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I thought this was going on during an ITF last night, but I couldn't be sure with all the chaos ensuing. Could someone shed some light onto this?
I'm perfectly happy accepting that tornado might only KD 40% of the time and do nothing 60% of the time, but it's a game changer if for 60% of the time it is actually still using KB because with the sheer number of times tornado is hitting, the net effect is still the same: bad guys going everywhere.
The IO was advertised as a solution to knockback. I'd prefer it do nothing 60% of the time than simply function as KB.
Bonfire is still functioning the same - 100% knockdown - so I don't think the fix is live yet. It's most likely that the knockdown is stacking to make it a higher mag.
No, the -60% chance for Bonfire and Tornado went into build 2320.201207100007.1, which hit beta late last week and is not live yet.
What you're seeing is very likely the 20% chance to KD firing and stacking with the reduced KB from Tornado. Unenhanced Tornado does mag 12.46 KB. Reduced by 99% that's .1246, plus the mag 0.67 KB from the proc equals a final mag of 0.7946, which is over the KD/KB threshold that is generally accepted to be 0.75.
According to my math any player power with mag 8 or greater KB can stack with the chance for KD (now that it's fixed) and KB anyway.
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Ah. So basically it's working as intended, then?|
Originally Posted by Codewalker
No, the -60% chance for Bonfire and Tornado went into build 2320.201207100007.1, which hit beta late last week and is not live yet.
What you're seeing is very likely the 20% chance to KD firing and stacking with the reduced KB from Tornado. Unenhanced Tornado does mag 12.46 KB. Reduced by 99% that's .1246, plus the mag 0.67 KB from the proc equals a final mag of 0.7946, which is over the KD/KB threshold that is generally accepted to be 0.75. According to my math any player power with mag 8 or greater KB can stack with the chance for KD (now that it's fixed) and KB anyway. |
That's disappointing.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
 |
Following up... I checked my slotting and even though I had the proc, I had tornado slotted with two 50 KB IOs. Taking those out fixed things greatly.
To clarify... with the release on beta, will knockback occur the remaining 60% of the time or will no knockdown/knockback effect be applied at all? I'd much rather it be the later.
No KB will occur that other 60% of the time. You'll end up with Tornado doing KD 40% of the time, and nothing the rest of the time (except for a 20% chance every 10 seconds from the proc).
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*shrug*. That's what's happening, whether or not it's intended I can't say. If it becomes a big issue, they could possibly reduce the mag of the chance for KD proc.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
Ah. So basically it's working as intended, then?
That's disappointing. |
And yes, slotting Tornado for KB will definitely nullify the KB->KD enhancement.
Actually, looking at it again, Tornado will still be pretty good even after the change goes in.
It has separate Knockback and Knockup effects, which are both modified by the Explosive Force special.
Even if both of those are reduced to a 40% chance, they can fire independently of each other. Meaning that there's still a 64% chance that one of them will go off on each tick. It will just be a little random whether it's Knockdown or Knockup.
Well this kinda sucks. I was really only interested in it for tornado and bonfire. Turned one situational power into a great power and one almost useless power into a great power. Owell, at least tornado still does damage and disorient.
Jay Doherty: Yes, there was this one night that I was ready to go home but had to drop the browns off at the super bowl before I left for home. While on the throne it hit me. I stayed for a few more hours and that why we have the pain pads in the game.
I'd heard the Bonfire change was to the power in general, turning into more of an Ice Slick clone, so that Overwhelming Force didn't really do much for it, but it was more useful overall. Was that a misunderstanding?
Bonfire is only changed is when it it slotted with the proc to the 40% chance to KD so its ice slick with dmg. Without the proc its still 100% KB
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Damn. Guess I'm going to need to run the Summer Event more some then after all.
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Originally Posted by CyWolf
Bonfire is only changed is when it it slotted with the proc to the 40% chance to KD so its ice slick with dmg. Without the proc its still 100% KB
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Going by City of Data it seems to be 0.5sec pulses, so it's fairly rapid (for comparison, Bonfire is 2sec) but as far as I know all the calculations are handled server side so I don't think the speed is really an issue. Judging by the timing, and from further experimentation, I'm 99% convinced that my original guess (explained better by Codewalker) is correct.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
How fast does Tornado pulse its KB? If it's quick enough, it seems to me that if the timing of processing all the info gets slightly jumbled on the server it could conceivably stack with itself.
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If this is true, Force Bolt and possibly Gale should both be exhibiting similar behavior (ie. 20% chance for KB, otherwise KD), if someone is able to check. Unfortunately I don't have enough procs to go around, myself.
As for whether it is intended functionality, I don't know, but I hope it isn't. If the KB>KD conversion isn't 100% reliable then it's not really working as advertised.
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton
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Well so much for that. Today's beta patch stealth nerfed it. OF removes the knockup entirely now, leaving just the 40% chance for knockdown per tick.
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Originally Posted by Codewalker
Even if both of those are reduced to a 40% chance, they can fire independently of each other. Meaning that there's still a 64% chance that one of them will go off on each tick. It will just be a little random whether it's Knockdown or Knockup.
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Just wondering if people are seeing what I'm seeing...I assume the same can apply to any KD/KB power with the proc in it, but I only have one slotted at the moment, in a Demon/Storm MM's Tornado.
Randomly the mobs are getting knocked back when I summon Tornado, after the last patch, which claimed to "fix" the proc. The relevant patch note:
So my first question is, has anyone else noticed this? I have confirmed that Tornado + OF proc is the culprit, and I am fighting even level mobs (most recently seen on Arachnos minions, ie. there is no KD vulnerability at play). It only happens when I summon Tornado directly underneath the mobs, which I'm guessing is due to the 10sec rule for procs in pseudopets, I haven't tested enough to see whether it has a chance to happen again 10sec later.
Secondly, is this working as intended? Previously I assumed that the proc did one of two things:
1. If KB already exists in the power, it reduces the mag to KD levels.
-OR-
2. If no KB exists in the power, it has a chance to cause KD.
But if my hypothesis above is true, it seems that it now does both?
A circle forms, everybody comes round
Just to hear the incredible sound
Of a genius smashing expectations
- Jonathan Coulton