I24 Snipe Alteration Suggestion
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2012-07-12 15:30 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
500% Recharge of those snipes would put them at about a 9 second recharge. I could and would build rotations around that, ones that used that ability as their core. Also, the damage would have to be more than doubled on a change that's multiplying the recharge by almost a factor of 4.
I'd rather see the dependency on a to-hit bonus be more evenly balanced so it doesn't unfairly favor some powersets and ATs while leaving other combinations up the creek or dependent on Aim/BU.
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I can easily see such an "unfair favoring" being considered a Feature rather than a Bug ...
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I'd rather see the dependency on a to-hit bonus be more evenly balanced so it doesn't unfairly favor some powersets and ATs while leaving other combinations up the creek or dependent on Aim/BU.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
How about 17% tohit? For a Blaster that's 3 SOs in Tactics + a Kismet IO with .08% left over that you need to make up by either over slotting Tactics or getting it from somewhere else. That way every set with a snipe can have insta-snipe, but it requires an investment of slots and a particular IO in order to achieve.
That way it's not "free" for Blasters and the price Defenders and Corrs pay is having to use a power pick and several slots to take advantage of it. They typically have tighter builds as they possess powersets that already usually require them to take a slot of lot of their powers, where as Blasters should be taking as much damage as they can get their hands on since that's essentially their only function.
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Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
How about 17% tohit? For a Blaster that's 3 SOs in Tactics + a Kismet IO with .08% left over that you need to make up by either over slotting Tactics or getting it from somewhere else. That way every set with a snipe can have insta-snipe, but it requires an investment of slots and a particular IO in order to achieve.
That way it's not "free" for Blasters and the price Defenders and Corrs pay is having to use a power pick and several slots to take advantage of it. They typically have tighter builds as they possess powersets that already usually require them to take a slot of lot of their powers, where as Blasters should be taking as much damage as they can get their hands on since that's essentially their only function. |
Why do you have to have it insta all the time?
Issue 24 PPM Calculator // The Great Makeover: The Vindicators
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Um, I think comparisons are just looking at soloing as the only way to play the game. Bring that defender with you when you play your blaster, and you will both have the exact same tohit ability.|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I'd rather see the dependency on a to-hit bonus be more evenly balanced so it doesn't unfairly favor some powersets and ATs while leaving other combinations up the creek or dependent on Aim/BU.
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I will always be in favor of anything in this game making defenders and corruptors wanted on teams. The fairly steady 'power creep' references on the forum makes me worried about the desirability of defenders in particular.
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I don't know that I like the idea of making the ToHit dependent on an IO. That strikes me as a particular design flaw - using gear to make a spec go from not viable to viable.
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I don't think I do need it instant all of the time but there's an issue when Blaster A can have it permanently insta-casting and Blaster B cannot. It only "fixes" Snipes for Blasters (and other ATs) that have the ability to buff their to-hit. Some are left with no possible way to make regular use of it. Given a set such as AR/Elec, which can only have Build up to boost his to-hit, he can only use that every 30 seconds or so, where as an AR/Devices could use insta-snipe as fast as the snipe recharges.|
Originally Posted by Arkyaeon
Why do you have to have it insta all the time?
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I'm not saying I'm against making /devices more desirable, or that /Elec isn't better than /Devices, but the whole point (I thought) of the Snipe changes was to make Snipes universally more useful. The powerset combinations available to different ATs and powersets within those ATs makes balancing the effectiveness of your Snipe attack on an outside figure that varies from combo to combo and team to team a chaotic mess.
I'd much rather see a change to snipes that does not rely on any outside factor that can be altered drastically based on random team make-up or the secondary and pool powers you take.
As for the solo vs teaming point, it's a good point and the issue is much less worrisome in a teaming scenario. The problem from a build perspective though is whether or not a player will find it worthwhile to take and devote slots to their Snipe power and then hope they end up on a team with another player who can buff his to-hit.
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The only way to achieve that would be to establish a minimum floor of Interrupt Time Reduction above which Interrupt Time gets reduced to zero. Then you have a fait accompli in needing to accept the Snipe Sets as being "adequate" for meeting this objective threshold. Because of the structuring of those Sets, this will almost certainly require such a threshold to be placed "too low" to be really meaningful (unless you want it to be trivially easy to achieve).|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I'd much rather see a change to snipes that does not rely on any outside factor that can be altered drastically based on random team make-up or the secondary and pool powers you take.
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Alternatively, it would be possible to give all Snipe Sets a 6-slot global set bonus which effectively zeroes out the Interrupt Time on the Snipe power the set is slotted into (or something similar) ... but that then means that you get a huge performance divide between Freemium and Subscription players with access to Inventions and Set IOs.
Basically, there are no "nice" ways to go about doing this. The To Hit solution we've got coming at least has the benefit of being KISS and encouraging people to take (and slot) Leadership Toggles to the benefit of everyone (not just the soloists).
It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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Or Blasters could just be given perma-fast-snipes across the board.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
Alternatively, it would be possible to give all Snipe Sets a 6-slot global set bonus which effectively zeroes out the Interrupt Time on the Snipe power the set is slotted into (or something similar) ... but that then means that you get a huge performance divide between Freemium and Subscription players with access to Inventions and Set IOs.
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| Basically, there are no "nice" ways to go about doing this. The To Hit solution we've got coming at least has the benefit of being KISS and encouraging people to take (and slot) Leadership Toggles to the benefit of everyone (not just the soloists). |
Devices is perhaps the only set for which a disproportionately high buff makes intuitive sense.
As far as grouping goes, I don't see a whole lot of people getting excited over the prospect of changing their attack chains on the fly. My Dominator, for instance, will not take the Snipe even after I-24, because she doesn't have access to 22+% ToHit on even a temporary basis. My Blaster will probably take the Snipe, but only because I can muster enough recharge to alternate Aim and Build Up with only about 6 seconds of downtime per cycle. Even at that, using the snipe will be an exercise in annoyance, an annoyance I really shouldn't need to endure, given that Melee attack sets are apparently entitled to comparable if not superior DPS with much less fuss.
Don't get me wrong; I love the nuke changes and I appreciate the spirit if not the letter of the snipe changes. Blasters ought to be more competitive as a whole class after I-24. But the Blaster buffs in I-24 have been a long time coming, and I think some of the hand wringing on the forums over the context-dependent snipe buff for Blasters (and blast sets in general) is kinda preposterous when you take a step back and look at the over-arching design of the game. It wouldn't be a balance problem if Blasters were simply handed fast snipes, for free.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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What if Blasters had the ToHit buff on Aim and Buildup increased in duration to compensate for ATs like Corruptors and Defenders being able to utilize their secondaries and Tactics to perma-fast snipe? I could see the ToHit buff portion being increased to 15 seconds, which would provide a 66% uptime on SOs, and easily become perma with IOs, global recharge, and Hasten.
I think there should be some opportunity cost to achieve perma-fast snipe, but that (Aim/BU) Blaster's have a harder time achieving such and could be brought more even with the other ranged ATs.
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I think it is important to keep in mind that not all the changes to blast sets are there particularly to buff blasters. Blasters may need improvement, so if a change also helps them, that is a point in its favor, but that isn't the sole reason changes to blast sets should or are happening.|
Originally Posted by Obitus
But the Blaster buffs in I-24 have been a long time coming, and I think some of the hand wringing on the forums over the context-dependent snipe buff for Blasters (and blast sets in general) is kinda preposterous when you take a step back and look at the over-arching design of the game. It wouldn't be a balance problem if Blasters were simply handed fast snipes, for free.
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The core of Sniper powers is to be situational. I very much like that the change keeps that flavor while also allowing the possibility of more consistent use. I am concerned that defenders and corruptors can make it perma-fast cast as easily as they can, since I think that detracts from the situational flavor, but I do not think it is a deal breaker.
The simplest change that, IMO, will make the "unfairness" concern fade, is if they make the fast-cast snipe's animations reasonable. That way adding snipes into your chain is an improvement, but not so large an improvement that it must be done or else you fall significantly behind. Also, the difference between perma-fast cast and occasional fast-cast becomes very small.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Clearly, the blast-set improvements in I-24 are not aimed solely at Blasters. By definition, any buff to blast sets in general cannot be targeted solely at a particular AT.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I think it is important to keep in mind that not all the changes to blast sets are there particularly to buff blasters. Blasters may need improvement, so if a change also helps them, that is a point in its favor, but that isn't the sole reason changes to blast sets should or are happening.
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But it's also clear that of the relevant ATs, Blasters are most in need of improvement. The proposed Snipe buff arbitrarily benefits Defenders and Corruptors most, with Blasters coming in third place, and Dominators in a distant last place. It is appropriate that Dominators should receive the least amount of positive attention, IMO; it is also appropriate that Devices should receive the most benefit, relative to other Blaster Secondary sets -- but otherwise the buff has no obvious rudder.
Or, if I simply fail to see the rudder, then I welcome correction.
It's fine that you enjoy the situational nature of Snipes, but make no mistake: the proposed Snipe changes in I-24 are not expressly designed to preserve that aspect of Snipes. Some builds are given an almost pathetically easy path to perma-fast Snipes, while others have to struggle, and still others are simply incapable of achieving perma-fast Snipes without outside intervention.
There is, in other words, nothing intrinsically situational or context-dependent about I-24 Snipes. I-24 Snipes will remain situational, and will incur a high opportunity cost for some builds, but only because those builds are not equipped as well as others to buy the arbitrary requirements of fast Snipes, either on a permanent or temporary basis.
It's as if the developers decided one day to tie Scrapper criticals to regeneration rate. Great idea if Willpower and Regeneration are supposed to be the most direct beneficiaries of the buff, but it's a terrible idea if the Scrapper AT is supposed to benefit, roughly evenly and as a whole.
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| The simplest change that, IMO, will make the "unfairness" concern fade, is if they make the fast-cast snipe's animations reasonable. That way adding snipes into your chain is an improvement, but not so large an improvement that it must be done or else you fall significantly behind. Also, the difference between perma-fast cast and occasional fast-cast becomes very small. |
Personally, I don't give a rat's furry rear end about how attractive Snipe powers are, in and of themselves. I'm much more interested in the holistic balance of AT capabilities. But sure, if the developers (and you, presumably) believe it's worthwhile to make Snipe powers more attractive just to enrich the already massive selection of build options, then that's great. More power to them, and to you.
There ain't a whole lot of middle ground, though. If the developers favor your approach, if they favor improving Snipes just for flavor, then they ought to say so, rather than allowing us to assume that the Snipe changes are the single-target-damage buff for which Blasters in particular, and blast sets in general, have waited. And waited. And waited.
Whether it's fair to the current crop of developers or not, there's a lot of expectation wrapped up in any proposed Blaster revamp. Based on the game's history, we have no reasonable expectation that there'll be another pass anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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In counterpoint, let me offer that my suggestion addresses your concerns in these paragraphs. Blasters can use Build Up and Aim to make the snipe fast cast each time it's up, and Corruptors and Defenders get to decide if they want to work at hitting the 22% cutoff for the half the time aim will not be up. And the damage buff and recharge nerf make it much more attractive when it's up, but less important to overall sustained DPS.|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
The core of Sniper powers is to be situational. I very much like that the change keeps that flavor while also allowing the possibility of more consistent use. I am concerned that defenders and corruptors can make it perma-fast cast as easily as they can, since I think that detracts from the situational flavor, but I do not think it is a deal breaker.
The simplest change that, IMO, will make the "unfairness" concern fade, is if they make the fast-cast snipe's animations reasonable. That way adding snipes into your chain is an improvement, but not so large an improvement that it must be done or else you fall significantly behind. Also, the difference between perma-fast cast and occasional fast-cast becomes very small. |
And the devs will have to do some other work to buff blast sets, but the y already need to do a pass on every snipeless set.
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It is an interesting choice. A scale 5.52 attack is not something I want to see, because even at 45 second recharge and a long animation time, that is unskippable (and becomes O.O with fast-cast). I want the snipes to be attractive, not Assassin Strike for blasters. Others do want what you suggest though, I have seen many ask for it.|
Originally Posted by BrainBrillo
In counterpoint, let me offer that my suggestion addresses your concerns in these paragraphs. Blasters can use Build Up and Aim to make the snipe fast cast each time it's up, and Corruptors and Defenders get to decide if they want to work at hitting the 22% cutoff for the half the time aim will not be up. And the damage buff and recharge nerf make it much more attractive when it's up, but less important to overall sustained DPS.
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So while I don't support your idea, it has its supporters.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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It's already been stated as such by the Devs, with regard to Devices being able to hit the magical ToHit number by overslotting Targeting Drone.|
Originally Posted by Redlynne
I can easily see such an "unfair favoring" being considered a Feature rather than a Bug ...
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I'm not sure if they considered Time Manipulation's ability to hit the ToHit reqs permanently for the entire team by power boosting Farsight, or running Farsight and Tactics, though.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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Arbiter Hawk is a pretty sharp guy, if not terribly outspoken, so I'm pretty darn sure (having had conversations with him at the last two Player Summits) that the potential of Farsight+Tactics was included in his decision making process regarding this and would not fall under the Overwhelming Force Proc In Bonfire/Tornado sort of edge case oversight.
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Originally Posted by Oathbound
I'm not sure if they considered Time Manipulation's ability to hit the ToHit reqs permanently for the entire team by power boosting Farsight, or running Farsight and Tactics, though.
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It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...
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You're looking at it the wrong way. |
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
I'd rather see the dependency on a to-hit bonus be more evenly balanced so it doesn't unfairly favor some powersets and ATs while leaving other combinations up the creek or dependent on Aim/BU.
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How many Blaster secondaries can have permanent fast snipes?
One. /Devices.
Now, how many Blaster secondaries do NOT have a damage boosting power in them?
One. /Devices.
Seems like the devs wanted to give /Devices something special to make up for its lack of Build Up.
Defenders and Corruptors don't get Build Up either. And they can have permanent fast snipes too.
Seems to me that it's a great deal more fair than you're making it out to be.
Permanent fast snipes instead of the ability to add +100% damage to ALL your attacks for 10 seconds? Seems fair to me.
Especially since the sets with Build Up gain that +100% damage bonus AND have a fast snipe while that bonus is active. They just can't do it all the time.
Still consider it unfair?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
honestly a bounce back and forth between Aim and Build Up at very high enhancement levels will probably equal or outperform a Devices set, although it'd be pretty close since the Devices set would have Aim.
I dunno. That's a very complex question, especially since in a Trial it'd be the rare League indeed that didn't have some kind of +ToHit.
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I do, since neither Corruptors nor Defenders need any kind of help. Blasters need help and devices needs help above and beyond that especially since /Devices plus any primary that lacks a snipe has gotten nothing at all.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Still consider it unfair?
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The more I think about the proposed changes the less I think they do to help blasters. So far all I can see is things that smooth out minor issues and do as much (or more) to help Corruptors and Defenders. I'm almost positive from looking at the numbers, and the blaster play style, that sustain is not going to do the trick especially as the opportunity cost will be quite high.
The sustain mechanic has been added to powers that were not stellar in the first place and have been skipped in all most every blaster build I have. I can't be alone in that. If I can afford to change power picks and add the additional slots required to pick things up is much more of the issue.
I believe that blaster players are correctly picking up on this issue though most players that have issues with it are couching it in terms of fairness rather than a more appropriate balance comparison.
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Two, Devices and Energy, as it stands energy gains considerably more out of the changes than devices ever could. Permanent conserve power/energize+ fast snipes.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
You're looking at it the wrong way.
How many Blaster secondaries can have permanent fast snipes? One. /Devices. |
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Now, how many Blaster secondaries do NOT have a damage boosting power in them? One. /Devices. Seems like the devs wanted to give /Devices something special to make up for its lack of Build Up. |
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| Defenders and Corruptors don't get Build Up either. And they can have permanent fast snipes too. |
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Seems to me that it's a great deal more fair than you're making it out to be. Permanent fast snipes instead of the ability to add +100% damage to ALL your attacks for 10 seconds? Seems fair to me. |
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Siphon Power, Sleet, Freezing Rain, Enervating Field, Fulcrum Shift, Tar Patch, Melt Armor, Slowed Response, Acid Mortar, Acid Arrow, Disruption Arrow -- just to name a few powers that leap to mind.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Defenders and Corruptors don't get Build Up either. And they can have permanent fast snipes too.
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Support ATs lack Build Up? That's a shame.
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| Seems to me that it's a great deal more fair than you're making it out to be. |
Fairness implies that there's some sort of moral or ethical component to this discussion, when in fact the issue is balance, not fairness. The question isn't whether the developers are unfairly penalizing or uplifting certain ATs or power sets; the question is whether the developers are hitting the targets they most need to hit with a buff, rather than simply carpet bombing a bunch of different builds, which may or may merit a buff, with an unequal selection of goodies.
Given what the developers have said in the past, I find it highly unlikely that they truly intend to give Defenders and Corrupters a bigger across-the-board buff with the snipe changes than they're giving Blasters. Or, if you prefer, a less conditional buff. Whatever wording you want to use, I question what's going on here.
If the developers truly do intend to give support ATs the lion's share of the buff -- keeping in mind also that Defenders and Corrupters are in a better position to avoid situational ToHit debuffs than Blasters are, due to their generally superior control/debuff/mitigation -- then I'm happy to be corrected on the matter.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Concur. On my own builds, that's the plan, to minimize downtime on Aim and Build Up -- but again, now we're pitting a Blaster's ability to leverage a whole build's worth of IO bonuses against a Defender or a Corrupter's ability to (over-)slot Tactics and equip a single Kismet.
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Originally Posted by Rakeeb
honestly a bounce back and forth between Aim and Build Up at very high enhancement levels will probably equal or outperform a Devices set, although it'd be pretty close since the Devices set would have Aim.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Nice build
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Thing is, with the long recharge, it's less important to *sustained* single target DPS than the currently proposed version. If spike single target damage were super important to this game, we would have seen a lot more appreciation of Stalkers prior to the I22 revisions. Would you concede that the current version on beta makes snipes unskippable?|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It is an interesting choice. A scale 5.52 attack is not something I want to see, because even at 45 second recharge and a long animation time, that is unskippable (and becomes O.O with fast-cast). I want the snipes to be attractive, not Assassin Strike for blasters. Others do want what you suggest though, I have seen many ask for it.
So while I don't support your idea, it has its supporters. |
Personally, I'd rather see an AS-like power in the blast sets over a power that is awesome DPA and DPS if you reach an arbitrary +hit number, and largely useless if you do not. I don't like something this central to an AT that alters your core rotation based on outside buffs or build contortions.
Posted this awhile ago, but it was deep in another thread and kind of got lost.
Suggestion is: double the damage on all snipes, and increase the base recharge to 45s. This makes them better as alpha strikes, better as spike damage (when insta'd), and (about) half as important to sustained DPS - in other words, a useful but situational ability. Plus, it means a blaster can alternate popping Aim and Build Up to always make it instant whenever it comes off cooldown - Corruptors and Defenders get to decide if they want to tie themselves in knots for half of the time the snipe will be up without Aim. Damage-wise, this makes snipes a bit less than 90% as effective as a stealthed Assassin strike, and almost 25% better than a critical unstealthed Assassin strike - but on three times the cooldown.
I know this undoes a lot of the individual set-balancing this change would make (like salvaging AR and Dev from the dustbin), but the devs could do that separately without altering how most blast sets play.
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