Dark Astoria the Hard Way
pretty amazing, Werner!
*claps hooves in appreciation*
The Nethergoat Archive: all my memories, all my characters, all my thoughts on CoH...eventually.
My City Was Gone
And yeah, my version of "fun" probably looks a whole lot like "working really hard to make things really painful" to most people.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
But that sixth arc. Ugh. Mind you, I've only tried it once, but it ended about like I expected - debuffed into the ground and torn apart by the Banished Pantheon. Now I can certainly solo Banished. But I'm probably around an 80-90% success rate per spawn. And there are just so very, very many banished spawns in that sixth arc, and it's so very long.
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The big trick is to wipe the Sorrows spawns out first. They're the biggest source of defense debuff. One is bad enough, two or three are enough to just wipe out your defense completely.
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Ah! Question: Do the debuffs come from the summoned Spirits, or from the Elders and Ancients themselves?
I guess I can answer this for myself by fighting some and then reviewing the combat log. If from the Spirits, since those are easily destroyed, I could prioritize Spirits of Sorrow, then Elders of Sorrow, then Ancients of Sorrow. That seems like it would wipe out the maximum amound of debuff source as quickly as possible. I'm pretty sure the debuff from the Pains comes directly from them, though. It seems like they do some AoE shout thing, a red wave explodes out, and that's the debuff. I could be mistaken, though. Again, I should review combat logs.
Banished Pantheon are also nasty enough to deserve their own tab macro. I'm not sure if this is the right order, but just for instance, I could set it up to target Spirits of Sorrow, then Elders of Sorrow, then Ancients of Sorrow, then Elders of Pain, then Ancients of Pain, and so on for as many characters as it will allow.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I may also want to consider working on tier 4 ageless for these guys. In most cases of defense debuffs, I consider Barrier to be superior, but at 100% debuff, Ageless has got to be ahead.
Let's see:
Ageless: +85% debuff resist first 22.5s, 42.5% next 22.5s, 21.25% last 45sI guess we can look at this as break even defense debuff levels by time:
Barrier: +90% def first 10s, 32.5% next 20s, 7.5% next 30s, 5% last 60s
00-10 106%I remember doing something like this before, looking at the numbers, and deciding that I'd much rather have Barrier, particularly since it also has resistance. But for the Banished, maybe it's the wrong choice? What kills me are extreme defense debuffs, well over the break even points for anything but the first 10 seconds and a middle 7.5 seconds. I'd been counting on Barrier for resistance as well, but Melee Core means I already have capped smashing, lethal, negative and psionic resistance. Fire is 64%, cold 72%, energy 48% and toxic 50%. I suppose there's probably a lot of energy damage, though, so the resistance from Barrier is still doing something, but it's doing less than it was back when I decided to take Barrier. And Ageless has its own benefits, like huge amounts of endurance and resistance to other kinds of debuffs.
10-23 38%
23-30 76%
30-45 18%
45-60 35%
60-90 24%
90-120 infinite
Ageless would be a long-term project, though. First, it would take me a while to get tier 4 ageless. Second, I'd consider redoing my build around it.
Something to think about, I suppose.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Have you thought about active mitigation, like Energy Torrent? I know Shield Charge seems to help with the knockdown though I am only running +3 x8 and using inspirations.
Also, you might want to consider using the Lore pets. This isn't like DPS checks where the pets obscure the stats we want to measure. The content is designed with those pets and at those settings leveraging the pets is a non-trivial play style and design exercise.
Moonlighter
50s include MA/SD, MA/SR, DP/Elec, Claw/Inv, Kat/Dark, Kat/Fire, Spine/Regen, Dark/SD
First Arc: Tequila Sunrise, #168563
Maybe someone can see something I can fix. Here's the video of my death for reference:
http://youtu.be/VATfajOsMJUFor incarnate powers, I'm currently running tier 4 Melee Core, tier 4 Barrier Core, tier 4 Cardiac Core, tier 3 Reactive Radial and tier 3 Void Radial. |
Since you are running with Melee Core, I changed the slotting of Obsidian Shield and Tough. Add a LotG 7.5% to Maneuvers and dropped Vengeance for OG:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1538;749;1498;HEX;| |78DA65935B6F124114C767D9A52BDBD24229A5F7D21BD7B2B0A51AA3C6A65A6B7A2| |1A9A2BE19B296B12522908587F6D1778DA60FFA05B4EA8B1FC0375FBDBE1AF50B78| |69F50B183C3BE7809BB081FC66CE9CFF99B3FF9DC9EDADF4BCBA7C6F8949BD17CB6| |6BD5EC86F5B66ADC62D77CEDC296D3378B4E532DFE3A5F0DA42568569B09551C8F1| |32E7FA86D9302BE6683BBAC26FF34A9DEB2BA675A7B06CDDAD5AFEB5CA2EB778A5A| |1B7063D5BD56A59DFE466AD54D9F18AC96A6967B701334DCCF235CE8B7DADAC22B7| |EABBA59AFF52ADB4AD5FA816F70B39B3DEE0D6FE10F49384FF03BB31F134DD2CE26| |2CCF030578C18472A0962D2A6C2BADE00030A8BDB5A89B46959E4746590270CE282| |2C345A16E7DA22F2BE4A52D04A6F31A7E71DF103B2F73DF123D2F7099900AD4CFBC| |ADFA197710FF3FD40F6FF24FE420E1C118F6D2A2C095A376A15774612BD0C1AC42C| |726891785212FB3D028D2AB9C47EEA39802AB391168B4CE48E05513336808CFA90F| |3A0F5E07E922724895E26866CAA2C046BDDE881D4FD0DBD35BEA0D783B0E6A577F4| |52ED09AA1DFECB449D30E586BF22A7A8460AB47D9224B47DA7B1CFA9B394D32F8BB| |D67AE61AD992BC4ABC803D0FAE9BBF8C9DB59F27696BC9D256F23E46D4478AB321D| |B401ECD915A05E23E44394DE41829C20D667C1263C4C864808552C741EBB5520364| |C9586A9529C2AC5A9521A7246C9BDD153A88B13A7616D9C5C1F4FE2174A10FDB036| |896BF2E43A9EC6C42A71034F9821F650591EA6D3D4ED34E91F827E8E627367ECFD1| |83BF43216A37788ADC320AAB200C493F405934FD1FDF967C443E27364EA05F1A54B| |ECDB0F5A9DEAE953B86F0662198A654698C81B53DAB7177EB69B934AFB4E36131DA| |B998E88D111C97644169D110F76B8E98CA5B0C32DA57DA799446E797C705731D63C| |D2DAF796C933B8FE5B73DC653A8B1337D0FD149DC9749E4867367D1D79ECAC17C37| |A7FFEC75CF201BA1A7D8C3D1B4F905B9A7D2EB0A75B8EF14DC7782900A934FEEC18| |BF86E360D0FBFC035185E686| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Not sure if this would help at all since I haven't tried it yet, but do you think Control Hybrid would make any difference? If you have enough AoEs to drop early (can't look at your build atm), would the side that adds control to dmg attacks lock down enough of the debuffers or dmg-dealers to get through those packs? I know you give up a lot by not having melee hybrid, so the tradeoff probably will not be worth it, just a quick idea that popped into my head while reading this thread.
Would respecing to add a ST Fear/Hold, etc, help at all, to take one of the LTs that debuff out of the fight right away?
- Xyzor, Lightning.Rod, Kagyx - Rubber Mulch / Wholesale Candy - Freedom Server
Have you thought about active mitigation, like Energy Torrent? I know Shield Charge seems to help with the knockdown though I am only running +3 x8 and using inspirations.
Also, you might want to consider using the Lore pets. This isn't like DPS checks where the pets obscure the stats we want to measure. The content is designed with those pets and at those settings leveraging the pets is a non-trivial play style and design exercise. |
I don't really want to bust out with the lore pets. I know they're mine, a real power, one that I bought my way up a skill tree for, but it just FEELS like I'm no longer soloing, somehow. It also goes against the spirit of the original "Scrapper Challenge" rules, where we disallowed click accolades (I'm not using those here either) due to their long recharge. I think we figured if it wasn't going to be available every spawn, it wasn't something we should be using. We were working on a worst case scenario kind of thing - you're all out of inspirations, you've already burned through all your long recharge powers, you need to beat this spawn now, so make it happen. But I'm already violating that by waiting for Conserve Power or Barrier or Void. But I guess I've slid as far down that slippery slope with those as I want to slide.
I should at least experiment, though. My theory is that they'd be down in the first 30 seconds of the fight, and so pretty useless with their 10 minute (?) recharge. But my theory could be wrong.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Oppressive Gloom may add that little extra bit of mitigation to help rampage through that mission. Having 2 mez auras is somewhat overkill for a lot of content in this game but will prevent several enemy attacks from occurring, more so than just one mez aura.
Since you are running with Melee Core, I changed the slotting of Obsidian Shield and Tough. Add a LotG 7.5% to Maneuvers and dropped Vengeance for OG: |
I normally consider Oppressive Gloom counter-productive on soft-capped builds, particularly when also running Cloak of Fear. But in this specific case, where my defense is in really bad shape anyway, and damage is pouring in like mad, Oppressive Gloom might just be a life saver. It's certainly worth a shot.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Not sure if this would help at all since I haven't tried it yet, but do you think Control Hybrid would make any difference? If you have enough AoEs to drop early (can't look at your build atm), would the side that adds control to dmg attacks lock down enough of the debuffers or dmg-dealers to get through those packs? I know you give up a lot by not having melee hybrid, so the tradeoff probably will not be worth it, just a quick idea that popped into my head while reading this thread.
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It might help a little. If I'm considering Ageless and Leviathan Mastery, I could maybe fit in Spirit Shark Jaws. I'd have to be juggling that along with doing damage, but yeah, maybe with slotting and practice I could lock down a couple lieutenants that way. On the other hand, the spawn that killed me in arc four was mostly boss debuffers. I think there was one Elder of Sorrow, though, and every little bit might be the little bit that saves or kills me.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Hmmm, I also want to be careful how far I go with this. If it's going to be a better overall build with Ageless and Leviathan, I should do it. But I worry that Barrier and Body may still be better most of the time. I guess the argument is that most of the time, I can already survive. Better to do worse against enemies I don't have as much problem with, and better against those that can kill me more often than I'd like. Hmmm.
Well, a friend wants to go red side and back. I might as well at least get myself the option to go Leviathan.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Hmmm, I also want to be careful how far I go with this. If it's going to be a better overall build with Ageless and Leviathan, I should do it. But I worry that Barrier and Body may still be better most of the time. I guess the argument is that most of the time, I can already survive. Better to do worse against enemies I don't have as much problem with, and better against those that can kill me more often than I'd like. Hmmm.
Well, a friend wants to go red side and back. I might as well at least get myself the option to go Leviathan. |
I had T4 musculurate, T4 rularuu, T4 degenerative (degen is more effective against bosses and EB's because its debuff works better against minions and liuets however reactive is better because its DoT has higher damage), T4 rebirth (I was exchanging elude with rebirth+conserve power and surprsingly surviving long enough to retoggle), T4 vorap (this and rularuu are totally personalflavour but vorpal has a wide range and with luck it cleans minions, leavingliuts withlittle health and drop bosses 3/4rd of their health)
Maybe someone can see something I can fix. Here's the video of my death for reference:
http://youtu.be/VATfajOsMJU |
Your Death Shroud misses ... a lot. I expected maybe to see just a smattering of Pantheon bashing your head in, but it was quite the opposite. You waded into the mob and grabbed the attention of a handful right off the bat, keeping them in Melee and getting them locked down into Cloak of Fear. Your problem was everything else. The five Pantheon immediately on top of you were cycling in and out of Fear pretty consistently while two or three off to the left sat at Ranged and gradually picked off your health while the Boss Ravager stamped on your head unaffected by CoF.
This was the same thing I noticed in the moment right before, when you picked off a few stragglers one-on-one. Whatever you had in Melee was easily dispatched, but the two/one away from you had no trouble tossing in pecks of damage.
Consistent Pattern, really. You're able to spike up your Melee defense fairly well, but your Ranged/AoE still fall a hair under 45% at the tail-end of Barrier. Also, Hybrid: Melee isn't going to its full advantage when obstacles are still managing to stay outside of your 10' radius; as was the case in your final death-thralls. In my experience, when you start setting yourself at +4/x8 in any aspect of the game--Incarnate or Normal--foes start showing up with that higher-threshold of To-Hit making 40-45% insufficient. In terms of how you perished to the Pantheon, it was directly at fault to the ranged critters tossing chunks at your defective defense.
So what would I suggest? Ageless is a good start to increase your Debuff Resistance. Barrier is nice for 20/s, and terrible for the other 100. It might momentarily wipe out a Debuff, but it is just going to widen the gap as it starts to cascade down. Ageless would at least pony up the chance of halting that loss altogether and ultimately help you try and keep something. Past that, I think your defeat came in part from not keeping yourself surrounded. Sounds strange to say, but in the instances are I saw your health dip, it was mostly coming from something beyond 10'. Cloak of Fear looks to be working, but it only reaches so far. Obviously not going to work on Bosses, but it didn't look like you were really having an issue with him so much as his lackeys. You don't have a Taunt Aura, though (/em Scrapper Crai T_T), and I wouldn't even suggest it, but what was mentioned already (like Ageless), was Water Spout. Given the ability to dump that attack on a mob/group immediately outside your reach should theoretically give you the breathing-room you currently lack. It might inspirit a little Chaos, but you don't have many other ways of dealing with the stuff you can't keep close.
Your Alexei builds have always been strong survivors, especially in Melee. The Pantheon are just scared
Edit: I forgot to mention, in terms of Judgements, Vorpal Radial gives 10/s of 30% Defense when it successfully hits a target. The buff comes at the moment the accuracy check passes, so it it usually applies before the mob has a chance to respond to the face-kick they just took. Just some food for thought.
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Warning: crazy space limit reached. Please delete some crazy and try again. |
I did whole DA arc with my kat/SR scrapper +4x8. Admitedly i didn't had much problem with most of the arc only problems were EB spawns at last cim mish and Black Scorpion who was spawned as an AV (and let me tell you he hurts alot) From your build I see you have none of your katana's heavy hitters. I used attack chain of FS-LD-FS-GD and allthough it is not best attack chain it is fast and let you have breathing room in front of you. It can be easily made as GC-LD-GC-GD but GD is an important element nonetheless.
I had T4 musculurate, T4 rularuu, T4 degenerative (degen is more effective against bosses and EB's because its debuff works better against minions and liuets however reactive is better because its DoT has higher damage), T4 rebirth (I was exchanging elude with rebirth+conserve power and surprsingly surviving long enough to retoggle), T4 vorap (this and rularuu are totally personalflavour but vorpal has a wide range and with luck it cleans minions, leavingliuts withlittle health and drop bosses 3/4rd of their health) |
Skipping the heavy hitters was deliberate, though arguably a bad choice. It looks a lot worse than the standard defensive chain on paper, but in practice, the damage isn't that far behind on something like a pylon. I specifically wanted to avoid the way that Soaring Dragon can reposition enemies. I worry that chasing or switching targets can occasionally cause a Divine Avalanche unstack. It would also slightly reduce damage output. I'm thinking in groups, that might make the damage output even out. I also wanted a chain with a more comfortable Divine Avalanche overlap than the typical defensive chain (which is just over 10 seconds, and that's assuming you're glued to a single target). I do give up some active mitigation in the form of knockup/down, but that's only on a single target. Mind you, even mitigating a single target COULD make a difference here, but so could keeping Divine Avalanche better stacked while moving around and changing targets. I've played both chains. I still haven't decided which one works better for me.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I figured Super Reflexes would be good for this, and was wondering if my Dark Melee/Super Reflexes would be better suited to this challenge. But I just like playing my Katana/Dark, and seeing what he can and can't do, even when he's not the ideal choice. That and it might take me months to get all incarnated up on a different toon.
Skipping the heavy hitters was deliberate, though arguably a bad choice. It looks a lot worse than the standard defensive chain on paper, but in practice, the damage isn't that far behind on something like a pylon. I specifically wanted to avoid the way that Soaring Dragon can reposition enemies. I worry that chasing or switching targets can occasionally cause a Divine Avalanche unstack. It would also slightly reduce damage output. I'm thinking in groups, that might make the damage output even out. I also wanted a chain with a more comfortable Divine Avalanche overlap than the typical defensive chain (which is just over 10 seconds, and that's assuming you're glued to a single target). I do give up some active mitigation in the form of knockup/down, but that's only on a single target. Mind you, even mitigating a single target COULD make a difference here, but so could keeping Divine Avalanche better stacked while moving around and changing targets. I've played both chains. I still haven't decided which one works better for me. |
I will add my voice to say that I am finding Water Spout to be a magnificent power for situations like this.
My latest build only just got most of its IO's last night, but prior to that I was running at +0/x8 against Arachnos on just SO's and when the Tarantula Mistresses popped up in number Water Spout was the difference between winning easily and losing heavily because it gives you enough time to take out the debuffers while they flop about. If you don't have much experience of it I should say that it doesn't even usually knock things out of melee range, though you may have to turn around occasionally.
I did the first DA arc last night on the same settings and expected to get hurt a lot because I only have ~45% defence at the moment but again Water Spout was the difference and I hardly noticed the debuffs (Died once because I was debuffed through the floor on a spawn where I accidentally fired Water Spout against a wall instead of into the mob!).
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
Umm there is no soaring dragon in the attack chain I posted. I know ST attack chain is GC-SD-GC-GD but I used an AoE one in dark Astoria (and was using it in AE) and even if you don't get fliashng steel its place can be easily filled with Gamblers cut, divine avalanche or sting of the wasp.
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"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Your Death Shroud misses ... a lot. I expected maybe to see just a smattering of Pantheon bashing your head in, but it was quite the opposite. You waded into the mob and grabbed the attention of a handful right off the bat, keeping them in Melee and getting them locked down into Cloak of Fear. Your problem was everything else. The five Pantheon immediately on top of you were cycling in and out of Fear pretty consistently while two or three off to the left sat at Ranged and gradually picked off your health while the Boss Ravager stamped on your head unaffected by CoF.
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I also should have jumped in the middle instead of working my way in from the side. I normally do. I guess since there was a target right on the edge on my side, I just ran in straight instead of hopping into the middle behind him. Maybe I was worried I'd have trouble hitting him from some other angle, and just wanted that Elder of Sorrow down fast.
And yeah, there's almost nothing in range of Melee Core Hybrid or Cloak of Fear the whole fight (/em Scrapper Crai). I really think I'd be better as a Brute. Higher resistance caps actually matter with Melee Core (and Barrier if I kept it), more hit points would help some, and I'd finally have that taunt aura I wish I had. In casual play, I can use use Melee Radial (once I build it again), but Melee Core just seems so much better for pure survivability when facing defense debuffers, particularly if I had higher caps.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
I will add my voice to say that I am finding Water Spout to be a magnificent power for situations like this.
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OK, so to sum up where I think we are, from fairly easy to fairly hard:
- Oppressive Gloom instead of Vengeance
- Bring Golden Dragonfly back
- Leviathan Mastery (Water Spout, maybe Hibernate, maybe the hold) instead of Body Mastery
- Ageless instead of Barrier
- Brute instead of Scrapper (*grumble*)
Edit: And...
- Improve target prioritization
- Try to stay more in the middle of the spawn where target prioritization allows
- Don't turn off Cloak of Fear like a spastic newb
And I need to give more thought to how some or all of these changes would affect my performance on other groups of enemies.
Thanks, y'all.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
So I've been soloing the Dark Astoria arcs the hard way on my Katana/Dark. +4x8 with bosses, with no temporary powers, no inspirations, no pets, no unforced NPCs, no running, and no deaths. I intended to post when I was done with all of the arcs.
But that sixth arc. Ugh. Mind you, I've only tried it once, but it ended about like I expected - debuffed into the ground and torn apart by the Banished Pantheon. Now I can certainly solo Banished. But I'm probably around an 80-90% success rate per spawn. And there are just so very, very many banished spawns in that sixth arc, and it's so very long.And it's gone pretty well. I beat the first three on the first try. I died once on the fourth arc, then got it on the second try. The fifth arc went down in one attempt. I made a video of the last mission on the fifth arc, the one in Cimerora, charging up the hill through the Minotaurs, Cyclopes and Talons of Vengeance.
Maybe repetition is the key, but I honestly don't think I have the stomach for it. I'd probably rather leave this project unfinished than run the sixth arc 20 times hoping to get lucky.
Maybe someone can see something I can fix. Here's the video of my death for reference:
For incarnate powers, I'm currently running tier 4 Melee Core, tier 4 Barrier Core, tier 4 Cardiac Core, tier 3 Reactive Radial and tier 3 Void Radial.
And here's my build:
Finally, here are pictures of the arcs I've completed so far. I guess I'm proud to have at least gotten this much, even if I can't complete arc 6.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks