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The new play style would be for it to work in (most) any zone.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Wrong. There is no "new playstyle" being suggested or denied. People are free to focus solely on radio/newspaper missions if they like regardless of whether or not the OP's idea get implemented. Changing zones to get level appropriate missions isn't preventing people from leveling from 1-50 doing only Radio/safeguard missions.
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New 'backdrop' to missions is the new style.
I know you LOVE to nitpick semantics to death. Go right ahead. This is a fine idea and it does not, in any way, prevent an existing system from working, it only adds a new flavor.
I stand by the sentiment that anyone against this is simply change averse or wants people to play the game their way.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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What? Are you talking about refreshing the radio mission list? No, you don't have to do either of those things, not since abandoning missions was implemented.|
Originally Posted by CoyoteShaman
Currently you have to zone out and back in or log off/on to refresh the list so a button to do it would certainly make me happy, as would the OP's idea.
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Select a mission, open the radio again, abandon the mission. Continue until you get a mission option that you like, complete the mission. Repeat.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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So.. in a nutshell, as we already have a situation where everyone grinds out the same stuff over and over again, we might as well introduce another one. Lovely.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Certain play styles and exploits such as...?
Farming? Been here forever. Family farms in PI, Behemoth Farms, AE, Death from Below. Next. Lack of people going to other zones? AE, Death from Below. Next. Lack of people at high levels having a clue that they're doing? PI farm babies, AE babies, DFB babies. Next. Is there anything I'm missing? Because I'm pretty sure everything used as a 'counter' can be debunked with stuff that is already in game. Have you seen apocalypse occur as a result? I know I haven't. This suggestion's likely outcome? A big fat load of not-a-lot-at-all-changing. |
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The reason why I brought up radio missions in AP is the fact that post-20 any character with the alignment system can activate their tips in pretty much any main city zone... AP included. Personally, I tend to avoid running whatever content in AP because some of the graphics lag my system, but from a flavor point of view AP needs just as much help (if not more) these days.
On top of that, it's simply gotten to the point that I've just roleplayed alignment and morality tips as just another thing the PPD want me to do because they're repetitive, except there's more of a mechanical incentive behind them (A-merits).
It'd be nice if we could make some of those similar morality choices in radio/paper missions. Imagine this scenario: PPD radio in a hostage situation, turns out said hostage is a Crey employee. what would your hero do in that situation? Go in as procedure, subdue the bad guys and lead out the scientist... but that doesn't do for a character that might have a cruel vendetta against the supercompany for whatever reason.
Maybe it might be possible to code the radio to give missions for zones that are at or below the current character's level range: I could have a fifteener get a selection of missions within Steel Canyon, Skyway City, Kings Row, while someone in the 30s can get missions almost anywhere except for Peregrine.
If the "laziness aspect" comes to running repeatables over actual mission chains, why not have periodic reminders for contacts *also* show up from time to time?
As stated, it really is already easy for people to stay in AP, much less never set foot more than a stone's throw away from the Atlas Statue for the entire 1-50 career. AP's a hub zone, moreso now since Galaxy got trashed. People are looking for and advertising for DFB and AE farms nearly 24/7. (By the way, remember when people actually did long haul sewer runs to try to get to Boomtown?)
Also, I heard and seen the word "gestalt" enough with Linguistics class and Final Fantasy XIII combined. It was in my system.
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Going through that process is clunky, though. I figured having the option to refresh right on the radio window would streamline the process.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
What? Are you talking about refreshing the radio mission list? No, you don't have to do either of those things, not since abandoning missions was implemented.
Select a mission, open the radio again, abandon the mission. Continue until you get a mission option that you like, complete the mission. Repeat. |
That process is much less clunky than the two CoyoteShaman said: zoning and re-logging. That's what I was responding to (thus why I quoted it). Not the thread in general.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Semantics doesn't enter into it.|
Originally Posted by MajorPrankster
The new play style would be for it to work in (most) any zone.
New 'backdrop' to missions is the new style. I know you LOVE to nitpick semantics to death. Go right ahead. This is a fine idea and it does not, in any way, prevent an existing system from working, it only adds a new flavor. I stand by the sentiment that anyone against this is simply change averse or wants people to play the game their way. |
I voiced an opinion and backed it up with a sound argument which hasn't been refuted by you.
You on the other hand have said nothing more than you want what you want because you want it, and implied anyone that disagrees is being a bully and dismiss anything they say.
But please do continue, your responses are amusing.
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I have no need to refute your opinion.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Semantics doesn't enter into it.
I voiced an opinion and backed it up with a sound argument which hasn't been refuted by you. You on the other hand have said nothing more than you want what you want because you want it, and implied anyone that disagrees is being a bully and dismiss anything they say. But please do continue, your responses are amusing. |
I voiced my own opinion.
Your responses sadden me.
Actually, after reading your responses in another thread, they sicken me. Anyone that would allude people should be burned simply because they are lawyers...needs serious help. Please seek some.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
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No, it's called 'The counter argument to this suggestion is over-reacting to a situation that , were to happen, would have done so already.'|
Originally Posted by SteelRat
So.. in a nutshell, as we already have a situation where everyone grinds out the same stuff over and over again, we might as well introduce another one. Lovely.
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People used to and probably still do farm missions in PI. If I remember right, that was 'killing the game' at one point. Then came AE, and while it did have a rockier start than most of the other culprits, it still didn't manage to do what everyone said it was going to do. Want to take a guess? That's right 'killing the game'.
And we now have DfB. Which is apparently killing the game. Only, quite clearly, it's not.
So, your 'argument' is that putting Radio missions in Ouro would, somehow, kill the game. Despite the fact that three previous methods that were actually far more effective have NOT killed the game as we know it. I can't see any logical fallacy or flaws in that reasoning whatsoever...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Which was that, again? |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
I voiced an opinion and backed it up with a sound argument which hasn't been refuted by you. |
Seriously, I do get lost in post slurry from time to time. Silly forums.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Not a problem, this is what I said.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Which was that, again?
Seriously, I do get lost in post slurry from time to time. Silly forums. |
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The current system not only gets new players using radio/newspaper missions to navigate to different zones it also help teach them what landmarks are in the zones and where to find various NPC groups.
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First of all, no I didn't say anything about putting the Radios in Ouro; I said that putting 1-50 Radios in Atlas Park would mean that players would be able to play the entire game outside of Task Forces in three zones. Level to 50 in AP doing nothing but Radios, hop over to Ouro to flashback all the content you skipped whilst levelling, then off to DA for Incarnate content. The fact we're getting new zones and zone revamps tends to make me think this is a situation the devs would rather not be in.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
No, it's called 'The counter argument to this suggestion is over-reacting to a situation that , were to happen, would have done so already.'
People used to and probably still do farm missions in PI. If I remember right, that was 'killing the game' at one point. Then came AE, and while it did have a rockier start than most of the other culprits, it still didn't manage to do what everyone said it was going to do. Want to take a guess? That's right 'killing the game'. And we now have DfB. Which is apparently killing the game. Only, quite clearly, it's not. So, your 'argument' is that putting Radio missions in Ouro would, somehow, kill the game. Despite the fact that three previous methods that were actually far more effective have NOT killed the game as we know it. I can't see any logical fallacy or flaws in that reasoning whatsoever... |
Granted, that same situation is possible now, but there are key differences, that make it less attractive to the masses. The AE has had changes made to the XP rewards that make this practise less than efficient, and therefore less attractive to people who want to get to 50 as quickly as possible.
The sewer trials exemplar you down to a cap of (I think) about level 12 or so. I would doubt very much people would enjoy using the same couple of powers every time all the way to 50. I'm sure there are those that do and these are the kinds of people who will seek to power level whatever the circumstances, precisely in the way you speak. And I agree; there's nothing you can do about those people because they will find exploits no matter what.
The point is that bringing 1-50 Radios to Atlas Park will be the AE pre XP nerfs all over again. Much more availability to EVERYONE simply due to increased visibility which in turn is more likely to make it the norm rather than the exception.
Alright, maybe I'm over reacting. Maybe this "nightmare scenario" as you call it (the terminology of which is also a little overblown ftwiw) won't happen. The fact of the matter is (albeit largely anecdotal) that these situations have happened in the past and the devs have taken steps to curb the attractiveness of doing so in various ways.
I think, therefore, that the implementation of this idea is unlikely without suitably implemented penalties; say a reward reduction for every level you are over the limit for a particular zone until it gets to 0 if you're more than 10 levels over. This way, all the people can still "play the game the way they want", but there are no ways of exploiting it.
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You left out Winter Lord babies. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Lack of people at high levels having a clue that they're doing? PI farm babies, AE babies, DFB babies. Next.
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(That's how I show how old, and thus cool, I am.)
And yeah, as much as I might personally be against the practice, I'm coming around to the grim reality of it:
People who wanna farm are gonna farm. They will find a way.
The only way to make a truly farm-proof game is to shut it down.
Might as well stop taking away or withholding nice things from people who might misuse them.
Even the devs seem to have caved on this, with officially-sanctioned farms like the DFB (replacing the sewers of old) as well as the poor abandoned and abused AE.
Yes, you will wind up with idiots like half the PUG Sutter I was on last night, who have no idea where any of the zones are nor any grasp of tactics beyond "charge." Guess what - those idiots have always been here, since the days when they got their levels by packing wolves into a dumpster and setting them on fire, and I have to acknowledge they always will.
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| I personally have encountered several players that had no idea there was more to the game than Atlas Park. One of whom was a running a 40+ level Kheldian Warshade. |
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| So.. in a nutshell, as we already have a situation where everyone grinds out the same stuff over and over again, we might as well introduce another one. Lovely. |
At least they're not &*#%ing killing each other, for real, as people are today all over the world and have since time immemorial. "First World problems," as the saying goes.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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Not relevant. The point was that I'm not basing my point of view on outdated information, but instead on personal experience. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Pfft, Warshades. Don't they give those out in Cracker Jack boxes now?
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You're correct in that, sure: the way it currently works does force players to move to other areas once they pass a certain threshold. Can't there be a potential to have that same movement within the radio missions themselves? |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Not a problem, this is what I said.
By the simple game mechanic of requiring people to change zones to get level appropriate radio/newspaper missions new players cannot help but learn more about what's unique in each zone, where the landmarks are, and where to find specific NPC groups. |
Example: A level 15 player is within the range of both Skyway City and Steel Canyon, so the police radio could theoretically give mission options for both zones. He starts in Skyway and does a mission there, and then opens the scanner again: this time there's two Skyway missions and one for Steel. Every time he does a mission for his current zone, the chance for more missions to appear for a different (level-appropriate?) zone increases until all three options are of the second zone.
Follow? It's probably too complex to implement, but it's an idea.
In terms of following radios in lower level zones, I again state that players can already do par-level tips in any zone that allows them to be investigated. I've been on a Lv50 RP tip team running in Atlas and Kings Row, and as I also mentioned, we already call them off as police scanner information. While I'd be fine with taking penalty to have a high level character run radio missions in a low level zone, how fair is it when something similar can already be done... with a bonus tacked on?
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Okay had to go back and reread the thread to see what I missed, and I'll support a modification to the radio/newspaper missions if they set the missions themselves in level appropriate zones.|
Originally Posted by QuarriosSoul
You're correct in that, sure: the way it currently works does force players to move to other areas once they pass a certain threshold. Can't there be a potential to have that same movement within the radio missions themselves?
Example: A level 15 player is within the range of both Skyway City and Steel Canyon, so the police radio could theoretically give mission options for both zones. He starts in Skyway and does a mission there, and then opens the scanner again: this time there's two Skyway missions and one for Steel. Every time he does a mission for his current zone, the chance for more missions to appear for a different (level-appropriate?) zone increases until all three options are of the second zone. Follow? It's probably too complex to implement, but it's an idea. In terms of following radios in lower level zones, I again state that players can already do par-level tips in any zone that allows them to be investigated. I've been on a Lv50 RP tip team running in Atlas and Kings Row, and as I also mentioned, we already call them off as police scanner information. While I'd be fine with taking penalty to have a high level character run radio missions in a low level zone, how fair is it when something similar can already be done... with a bonus tacked on? |
So a player on a level 50 in Kings Row could get a mission from his scanner that sends him to Peregrine Island to do the mission. And in the case where there are zones where levels overlap the missions could be for any of those particular zones.
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It's somewhere along the lines of what I was going for with that suggestion, yes. It won't necessarily rectify the issue of actually getting high-level par content in the lower level zones, which is something I'd prefer for concept reasons on a couple of characters. It'll at least take out the stagnation period of "you're too big for this zone now, go somewhere else before we talk to you again!" (which should still be reworded).
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Okay had to go back and reread the thread to see what I missed, and I'll support a modification to the radio/newspaper missions if they set the missions themselves in level appropriate zones.
So a player on a level 50 in Kings Row could get a mission from his scanner that sends him to Peregrine Island to do the mission. And in the case where there are zones where levels overlap the missions could be for any of those particular zones. |
Forbin, two thoughts on that:
1. Since this sort of thing is mostly for concept anyway (as we've established that those who just want to PL have other options that are, if anything, even more convenient), what about the hero who doesn't want to leave "his" neighborhood? What if X wants to be a hero of Kings Row, or Steel, or Talos?
2. Haven't we gotten past the mid-2000s MMO design idea that "enforced travel time = content, or at least extended gameplay"?
EDIT: And to reiterate what QuarriosSoul said, tips already work this way, so why can't/shouldn't radio missions?
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I have a couple of characters that do exactly that. I turned off my XP and park them in the zone they are protecting thus never outleveling the content. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
Forbin, two thoughts on that:
1. Since this sort of thing is mostly for concept anyway (as we've established that those who just want to PL have other options that are, if anything, even more convenient), what about the hero who doesn't want to leave "his" neighborhood? What if X wants to be a hero of Kings Row, or Steel, or Talos? |
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| 2. Haven't we gotten past the mid-2000s MMO design idea that "enforced travel time = content, or at least extended gameplay"? |
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It's nothing to do with morality Mega, it's about how it affects the players within the game as a whole. I think it would cheapen the whole experience. I agree that there will always be a core of players that will try and look for exploits whatever the restrictions put on them - for some that is part of the challenge, and well that's up to them, I just don't like the idea of a freebie mechanic that allows everyone to do with without much effort.|
Originally Posted by Megajoule
In a word, yes. Trying to fight human greed and laziness is futile. (And that's if one even believes, as I do, that there's a moral component to it; others might say, and have, that it's ridiculous to put such meaning on farming in a video game.)
At least they're not &*#%ing killing each other, for real, as people are today all over the world and have since time immemorial. "First World problems," as the saying goes. |
Additionally, whilst trying to fight human laziness is futile, why would an idea that almost encourages it be a good one? I'm not sure that introducing real world immoralities is entirely necessary or relevant, for the record either.
I do see the conceptual niceties of the idea, but just like the when the AE was first introduced ignoring the plainly obvious potential for exploit is being rather naiive.
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Perhaps this can be a perk tied to a certain vet reward tier badge.
That way people who are brand new to the game still have to go to the appropriate zone for their newspaper/radio as they level (which will allow them to learn about other parts of the game), while people who have been here for a while can have the option of a level 5-50 newspaper/radio in any zone that has a detective/broker.
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I can half see where you might be coming from with that idea, but where could they fit it in the reward schedule? Would it be an individual token item or part of a tier complete bonus? What tier would you consider as a fair splitting point between "new" and "experienced"? Would it be profitable for them, in any case, to just put it on the Paragon Market?|
Originally Posted by Hero_of_Steel
Perhaps this can be a perk tied to a certain vet reward tier badge.
That way people who are brand new to the game still have to go to the appropriate zone for their newspaper/radio as they level (which will allow them to learn about other parts of the game), while people who have been here for a while can have the option of a level 5-50 newspaper/radio in any zone that has a detective/broker. |
Realization: They'd have to do work to try and implement a system in order to have all those lower enemy groups scale up unless something like the previous suggestion of exemplaring down to the zone-level (similar to how Ouroboros works) is put into play.
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Put in the incarnate version of them in |
Originally Posted by QuarriosSoul
Realization: They'd have to do work to try and implement a system in order to have all those lower enemy groups scale up unless something like the previous suggestion of exemplaring down to the zone-level (similar to how Ouroboros works) is put into play.
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There are incarnate Trolls, I think the Tsoo in DA are incarnate if not then they are level 50.
I think they only group we need are Valz, Hellions, and Skulls.
Hellions and Skull something like this http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=208547
Valz, well I hate them nice replace them with something nice =P
EDIT: Better yet, just have them spawn random villains depending on your level, if that can be done.
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Originally Posted by Power_NA
Put in the incarnate version of them in
There are incarnate Trolls, I think the Tsoo in DA are incarnate if not then they are level 50. I think they only group we need are Valz, Hellions, and Skulls. Hellions and Skull something like this http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=208547 Valz, well I hate them nice replace them with something nice =P EDIT: Better yet, just have them spawn random villains depending on your level, if that can be done. |
Not gonna happen. Incarnate content is restricted to VIP accounts only. The devs aren't going to add content to radio/newspaper missions that Free/Prem players can't run.
At level 50...you're stuck with PI as the only zone to run Radios in.
This would allow you to travel to other zones to run radios.
That being said...if someone wants to run all their radio missions in Kings Row or Steel Canyon...then why not? Why do you have to label these people as "lazy"...why can't they be doing this for the immersion that the zone brings to their gameplay?