Quote:
Sure, Blaster mitigation tools aren't that great in Incarnate Trials but Incarnate trials are not all level 50 content. For playing non-trial content (either solo or on a team) slows and mezzes are still potent tools.
|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Not really, once your in incarnate content, you rarely take damage that isnt 2 shot.
Also slowls rarely affect anything in trials, I mean most trials are so easy that damage shouldnt matter but it does sometimes, especially with the dps race being the devs new favorite chew toy. |
Quote:
Unless some changes are made to ice, the set is going to be in sorry shape....|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Sure, Blaster mitigation tools aren't that great in Incarnate Trials but Incarnate trials are not all level 50 content. For playing non-trial content (either solo or on a team) slows and mezzes are still potent tools.
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I think this might be finally time to delete my ice blaster...my last blaster too....
I dont really understand these changes.... it really helps def and cor more than blasters...
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Quote:
That's not true. That's actually a statistically uncommon occurrence.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
Not really, once your in incarnate content, you rarely take damage that isnt 2 shot.
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[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]
In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)
Quote:
If you really believe that, Ice will never measure up. I am surprised you kept it around considering its modest AoE damage output is well below what some other primaries bring to the table.|
Originally Posted by Shubbie
Also slowls rarely affect anything in trials, I mean most trials are so easy that damage shouldnt matter but it does sometimes, especially with the dps race being the devs new favorite chew toy.
|
With your PoV, only Fire matters (and likely only corruptors), so you might as well just play that and be content.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Its aoe damage was decent and its single target was extremely good.
But if everyones dps goes up, the next dps race is going to be higher based on the higher dps base.
Beam, archery, Ar are all good ranged sets....Ar and beam are going stratospheric..
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.
Quote:
I thought it looked like Dual Pistols would still be bottom of the list, not Ice.
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Originally Posted by Shubbie
So ice blast is going to be a bottom barrel set after this.
Mitigation at 50 is a non issue, only damage matters at that point. |
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
Hey folks, I've cranked out a comparison of sets' expected performance in i24 with current values in the following thread:
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=291837
The summary of set single-target performance is pasted below. If you'd like to know where the numbers came from, check the initial thread. These sets are in order of weakest DPS to strongest DPS.
As a point of comparison, my Peacebringer's average sustained DPS is around 340 DPS currently.
Set Name / Base Damage / Enhanced to 345% / Enhanced with the Set's average sustained Defiance:
Sonic Blast DPS: 144.68 / 287.23 / 318.23
Ice Blast DPS: 115.79 / 291.24 / 322.35
Energy Blast DPS: 106.61 / 293.57 / 327.40
Electric Blast Self DPS: 111.33 / 295.31 / 328.22
Archery DPS: 106.69 / 284.32 / 329.36
Dark Blast DPS: 119.28 / 306.51 / 340.46
Electric Blast w/ Pet DPS: 142.12 / 342.15 / 375.09
Beam Rifle DPS: 122.81/ 352.64 / 388.02
Radiation Blast DPS: 126.63 / 349.19 / 390.07
Psychic Blast: 131.70 / 363.74 / 404.35
Fire Blast DPS: 133.32 / 372.91 / 420.14
Assault Rifle DPS: 166.23 / 409.36 / 453.28
Fear not, fellow dual-pistoleers:
Quote:
I wouldn't count on dual pistols being near the bottom of the list just yet.
|
Originally Posted by Arbiter Hawk
There are more than DPA changes coming to improve Dual Pistols. But Synapse should be the one to tell you about what he hath wrought.
 |
Corruptors.
I hate to be the voice of alarm, but if I understand what is proposed, this is just a straight-up buff to Corruptor single-target damage. I am hoping I missed something in the conversations, because this proposal leaves me confused.
Not to be too hypberolic, but why in the world would you want to play a terrible set like Devices when you go Traps Corruptor and still pick up the one main advantage that Devices supposedly brings?
So all Corruptors and Defenders with a Snipe are now, essentially, forced into taking Leadership pool, and also get a reliable new blast power that Blasters can only reach if they accept the gimp of Devices. This is balanced how, exactly? From what I can see, it breaks Defenders, it breaks Corruptors, and it breaks Blasters relative to those 2 ATs. I appreciate the developers wanting to improve Snipes but I can't stand by this change. I just hope there is something I don't understand or have missed about it to allay my concerns.
How "hard" is is it exactly to get this benefit on a Corruptor? Well, observe below. Is this REALLY what we want everyone forced to be specced into? Really? Because I recall a power called "Stamina" that used to live in an "optional" pool that looked really similar to this.
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.956
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Level 49 Magic Corruptor
Primary Power Set: Fire Blast
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Leadership
Villain Profile:
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 1: [Empty]
Level 2: [Empty]
Level 4: Maneuvers -- Ksmt-ToHit+(A)
Level 6: [Empty]
Level 8: [Empty]
Level 10: [Empty]
Level 12: [Empty]
Level 14: Tactics -- ToHit-I(A), ToHit-I(15), ToHit-I(15), ToHit-I(19)
Level 16: [Empty]
Level 18: [Empty]
Level 20: [Empty]
Level 22: [Empty]
Level 24: [Empty]
Level 26: [Empty]
Level 28: [Empty]
Level 30: [Empty]
Level 32: [Empty]
Level 35: [Empty]
Level 38: [Empty]
Level 41: [Empty]
Level 44: [Empty]
Level 47: [Empty]
Level 49: [Empty]
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Scourge
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 4: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Health -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Stamina -- Empty(A)
------------
Code:
| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;586;248;496;HEX;| |78DAF3AD70E159E7DE68CFC0C8EF9C93585C1CEF9C5F54545A50925FC4EA9B989E9| |9CCCC0004EC402C0D97880F4ACC4B4F4DD173CB2C4A8D77026A2A1141C83995A6A5| |E9851425161433F007E4E7E7E8F9A426A6A41615676416F082F96E99E919259979E| |93C505E495E6A7131378493039213742DC84CD673492CCA8EF7059A9D5A542901B4| |5E1588FFA30241A0B3981941EEFBCFC0FC1748C9B2A02B010361A03A5E883A665E2| |32065C8C2C087460B41E9FFD403322C0C50F01FE274062D0C11030C11430C11630C| |11130C114F84C87F1F0CD900A008235484112CC229000C3AA8FAB75C48C108967D8| |F21F20E43E403860800AB08F0D5| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote:
Yes yes, sky falling. Blasters obsolete. Objectively does the snipe buff help Defenders and Corruptors more than Blasters? Probably. Does it invalidate Blasters? No more than Corruptors and Defenders already do.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Not to be too hypberolic, but why in the world would you want to play a terrible set like Devices when you go Traps Corruptor and still pick up the one main advantage that Devices supposedly brings?
So all Corruptors and Defenders with a Snipe are now, essentially, forced into taking Leadership pool, and also get a reliable new blast power that Blasters can only reach if they accept the gimp of Devices. This is balanced how, exactly? From what I can see, it breaks Defenders, it breaks Corruptors, and it breaks Blasters relative to those 2 ATs. I appreciate the developers wanting to improve Snipes but I can't stand by this change. I just hope there is something I don't understand or have missed about it to allay my concerns. How "hard" is is it exactly to get this benefit on a Corruptor? Well, observe below. Is this REALLY what we want everyone forced to be specced into? Really? Because I recall a power called "Stamina" that used to live in an "optional" pool that looked really similar to this. |
The fact is there's been a strong argument for Blasters being obsolete long before the snipe change came along. To a large degree Scrappers, Stalkers and Brutes can deal damage as well or better and are a lot tougher while doing so. Corruptors and Domiantors can deal damage almost as well and provide lovely team buffs/debuffs or control. This change doesn't really impact that.
As for Leadership now being "required" for Corruptors and Defenders I really don't see it. Sure Perma FastSnipe is nice but there are plenty of blast sets where it doesn't help as much. In fact Sonic Blast, which is generally considered the strongest Blast set for Defenders, doesn't even have a snipe. I'll also add that a lot of Defenders and Corruptors take Leadership already because it's a very useful set.
Now I do think that there should be a bit more AT-parity for the snipe changes. At the very least I think Build Up for Blasters should be buffed so that it can more easily trigger it but I really don't see it as the horrific change some people seem to think. I also think something should be done to give Dominators access to FastSnipe (adding it to Dominaton mode was suggested, I'm not sure how I feel about that, Perma Dom is already very good).
Quote:
Didn't we go through all the i14 changes specifically to stop Domination providing a damage boost?
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Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
(adding it to Dominaton mode was suggested, I'm not sure how I feel about that, Perma Dom is already very good).
|
Quote:
Corruptors and Defenders got a much larger buff from this. That is without considering the fact it's much easier for them to benefit. Blaster T1 and T2 blasts are relatively standardized and both are pretty much MEH.|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes yes, sky falling. Blasters obsolete. Objectively does the snipe buff help Defenders and Corruptors more than Blasters? Probably. Does it invalidate Blasters? No more than Corruptors and Defenders already do.
The fact is there's been a strong argument for Blasters being obsolete long before the snipe change came along. To a large degree Scrappers, Stalkers and Brutes can deal damage as well or better and are a lot tougher while doing so. Corruptors and Domiantors can deal damage almost as well and provide lovely team buffs/debuffs or control. This change doesn't really impact that. |
Take Archery
Code:
DPA
blaster Corruptor
Snap Shot 44 24
Aimed Shot 45 35
Blazing Ar 83 54
Ranged Shot 93 62
The blaster is pretty much not getting any gain in his bottom attack.
So the corruptors base DPS goes from 41 to 53 dps a 31% increase.
The blaster goes from 59 to 73 a 24% increase.
That is just wrong. You are already in a situation where people would rather have a corruptor or defender over a blaster to begin with now the gap in raw damage output is narrowed ?
Edit: Its really painful if you compare the case where the blaster can't use fast snipe to where the corruptor can at that point an Archery corruptor is doing 53 base vs a Blaster's 59. No debuff considered.
So you are saying that blasters get less from snipes being made viable because their first couple of attacks are merely 'meh' rather than completely suck?
Doesn't this suggest that blast sets in general could do with better early attacks?
Quote:
They could do with something. I would have liked to have seen the blaster single target attacks in general improved. Every blaster should have permanent access to a very good single target chain. Its what blasters are about. Solo courruptors shouldn't be able to pull ahead of solo blasters. (When you toss in debuffs and scourge to the above examples the corruptor is nicely ahead(depending on set))
|
Originally Posted by Edana
So you are saying that blasters get less from snipes being made viable because their first couple of attacks are merely 'meh' rather than completely suck?
Doesn't this suggest that blast sets in general could do with better early attacks? |
Quote:
Yep, hence why I'm not very keen on the idea. On the other hand I would like Dominators to have some way to FastSnipe without having to rely on inspirations and that would be one option.
|
Originally Posted by Edana
Didn't we go through all the i14 changes specifically to stop Domination providing a damage boost?
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Quote:
How about looking at a set that doesn't have non-standard T1 and T2 attacks and actually uses the recharge and damage scale for the attacks on the different ATs. Energy Blast is probably a good example.
|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Corruptors and Defenders got a much larger buff from this. That is without considering the fact it's much easier for them to benefit. Blaster T1 and T2 blasts are relatively standardized and both are pretty much MEH.
Take Archery |
Quote:
Dark, archery, fire, psychic corruptors all gain a larger percentage from this change this isn't an isolated case. Also every corruptor no matter what still gets considerably more out of the change. They can all have 100% access while blasters can't.
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
How about looking at a set that doesn't have non-standard T1 and T2 attacks and actually uses the recharge and damage scale for the attacks on the different ATs. Energy Blast is probably a good example.
|
Why not add Radiation to the list? That's the other case where Blasters get less out of the snipe changes due to Corruptors having a different version of the set that has intrinsically worse DPAs on top of the AT damage scale difference.
Also of the four you listed Dark and Psi might have snipes but they have no ability to access the fast versions without dipping 2 powers into the leadership pool, overslotting tactics and finding a slot for a kismet IO. All blasters have access to fast-snipes some of the time just from their primary/secondary.
Quote:
I was working around minimizing the number of extra power picks dropping one low attack to take the snipe so your ranged single target picks would stay the same. The low end attacks in radiation are close.|
Originally Posted by Edana
Why not add Radiation to the list? That's the other case where Blasters get less out of the snipe changes due to Corruptors having a different version of the set that has intrinsically worse DPAs on top of the AT damage scale difference.
|
Quote:
| Also of the four you listed Dark and Psi might have snipes but they have no ability to access the fast versions without dipping 2 powers into the leadership pool, overslotting tactics and finding a slot for a kismet IO. All blasters have access to fast-snipes some of the time just from their primary/secondary. |
but speaking of psi if a corruptor has the recharge to run this chain
will dom - tk blast - psi lance they are going to be putting out 71 dps unenhanced the shortest attack being 100 ft
just who is the ranged damage specialist here ?
Quote:
Oh the blaster certainly... |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
but speaking of psi if a corruptor has the recharge to run this chain
will dom - tk blast - psi lance they are going to be putting out 71 dps unenhanced the shortest attack being 100 ft just who is the ranged damage specialist here ? |
*Goes to dust off the psi/kin corruptor*
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Adeon Hawkwood
Yes yes, sky falling. Blasters obsolete. Objectively does the snipe buff help Defenders and Corruptors more than Blasters? Probably. Does it invalidate Blasters? No more than Corruptors and Defenders already do.
The fact is there's been a strong argument for Blasters being obsolete long before the snipe change came along. To a large degree Scrappers, Stalkers and Brutes can deal damage as well or better and are a lot tougher while doing so. Corruptors and Domiantors can deal damage almost as well and provide lovely team buffs/debuffs or control. This change doesn't really impact that. As for Leadership now being "required" for Corruptors and Defenders I really don't see it. Sure Perma FastSnipe is nice but there are plenty of blast sets where it doesn't help as much. In fact Sonic Blast, which is generally considered the strongest Blast set for Defenders, doesn't even have a snipe. I'll also add that a lot of Defenders and Corruptors take Leadership already because it's a very useful set. Now I do think that there should be a bit more AT-parity for the snipe changes. At the very least I think Build Up for Blasters should be buffed so that it can more easily trigger it but I really don't see it as the horrific change some people seem to think. I also think something should be done to give Dominators access to FastSnipe (adding it to Dominaton mode was suggested, I'm not sure how I feel about that, Perma Dom is already very good). |
I don't think the sky is falling. I do think this change is bad for the game and creates more problems than it fixes.
Example A:
A Psy or Dark Corruptor or Defender lacks Aim, so they have no inherent access to permasnipe until they get Tactics and Kismet... and then they have it all the time. Being forced into taking Tactics in order to stay competitive IMO isn't interesting or dynamic. It's just kind of lame. [EDIT: Just noticed someone brought this up up thread. Sorry to be an echo.
]I respect the developers and thank them for taking an interest in changing Snipes, but this specific change has many issues and I don't support it.
Quote:
Competitive for what? Are they PVPing?|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Being forced into taking Tactics in order to stay competitive IMO isn't interesting or dynamic.
|
And couldn't the same thing be said for a Stalker being 'forced' into taking Assassin's Fill-In-The-Blank?
Blood Widow Ricki * Tide Shifter * T-34 * Opposite Reaction * Shaolin Midnight * ChernobylCheerleader
Quote:
This|
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
Competitive for what? Are they PVPing?
|
the mindset that being able to potentially be more powerful is somehow a nerf is just stupid
you can be the same as you are now
or take snipe and tactics and be different
choose the one that works better for you
unless I missed the comment that all enemies would have their hit points increased vs corruptors and defenders to balance out the extra damage they can get from perma snipe
Let's look at the cause and effect of this change...
Blasters are underpowered compared to other AT's. Blasters need help.
What is done to fix this? Offensive sets are improved across all appropriate AT's, having an arguably bigger impact on non-blasters.
How is this logical?
When word of this change first came out, my first thought was "I hope they actually buff blasters, not just blast sets." Guess I had a reason to worry.
Also slowls rarely affect anything in trials, I mean most trials are so easy that damage shouldnt matter but it does sometimes, especially with the dps race being the devs new favorite chew toy.
Boycott Ncsoft if they close down Coh.