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First, I need to correct myself a bit. Entangle does not receive bonus damage, something I often forget. |
Originally Posted by Reppu
You do need to take in account Arcanatime for any of this. It's not hard to toggle on. But, you're right in that regard. Dark's are a bit faster than many. This is what I get for posting that on little to no sleep.
Either way, their DPAs (Arcanatime in mind) are not very impressive regardless, and Dark has no other secondary blast. As I said in the past on Haunt, it's simply "making up" for Dark's lack of a Personal Blast that a few other Control Primaries have. Which is why I strongly say it is NOT as deceptively high ST as people may think due to having MOAR PETS. In the end, I also disagree that the cone-based AoE makes it any better AoE than any other primary. The cone itself does do fairly better damage than many of the AoE Immos, but it's still prone to Cone Targeting Shenanigans. A bit better built-in AoE, but definitely no where near Plant or Fire. |
Moving on... As Arcanatime will affect all those activations in the same manner, it won't make a difference in their ranking. That is, however, just a ranking of the activations and not their actual DPA. A ranking of DPA for holds and immobilizes would secure Ring of Fire at the top and possibly bump Strangler up a notch among the holds, but mostly the list would remain untouched. Both Shadowy Binds and Dark Grasp sit close to the average for control sets which is probably not impressive in some people's eyes.
A more inclusive listing of controller attacks would prop up Gravity, Mind, and Illusion. I suspect, however, that would still leave Dark fairly well in the middle, at least ahead of Earth, Ice, Electric, and Plant before any pets come into account.
I agree that Living Shadows is difficult to quantify. Again playstyle and secondary become factors here. If one prefers a ranged playstyle they are likely to hit the target cap for Living Shadows; a melee preference favors the traditional immobilizes. It's also worth noting that Living Shadow has a smaller area (1884 sq. feet) compared to an immobilize with a 30 feet radius (2826 sq feet). As I prefer range, this hasn't been an issue for me yet.
Agreed.
The thing with Dark/ having Haunt instead of another direct dmg power, is that Haunt is VASTLY more time and end efficient than spamming a third damage power. The Shades are a smart missile that you can fire off and then focus on doing other things KNOWING that they will do a ton of damage either spread around, or on whatever hard target(s) remain. That gives the Dark/ controller the ability to work the spawn using single target controls (Possess and Dark Grasp) to neutralize troublesome LT's or turn them to your advantage.
@Reppu: I never said Dark/ was on a level with Plant/ and Fire/. I've always said that those two ARE the top tier for AOE damage, and after them Dark/ probably comes in next.
Dark/ is a lot like Illusion but WITH Immobs so there is no containment setting problems. That's a huge benefit.
What makes Dark/ work well for AOE dmg is the fact that you can stay back and do everything from range with Fearsome Stare and Living Shadows as your primary control AND containment setting AND damage.
Anyway...
On the Fluffy tangent: Fluffy EXCELS when you have melee dmg focused pets as he will run in and both heal them and apply his very hefty -ToHit to mitigate their incoming damage. Fluffy is NOT really a damaging pet at all, he's more of a pocket Defender with a MASSIVE heal and great -ToHit etc. I expect Imps + Fluffy to a fabulous combo if I ever get around to leveling up the baby Fire/Dark I have collecting dust atm. 
On the testing aspect I think it's almost a requirement that we split it into at LEAST an AOE category and a ST category. Another question that comes up, is what kind of global rech should be present during testing? Given that a lot of recharge can make a BIG difference in the impact of some of the slower recharging powers, and the attack chain alters significantly as global rech climbs.
Builds with less rech will favor sets that have more powers to build a chain out of, while higher recharge builds will favor ones that have fewer but more optimal powers.
Confusion effects also bring up an interesting difficulty in terms of figuring the result so I'm guessing we're looking not at dmg # out of Hero Stats but a slightly more abstract stopwatch approach with the time it takes start to finish in taking down a spawn.
Another question is whether we consider the survivability? I'm pretty sure most of us can agree that Fire/ is a bit less robust in it's ability to handle ambushes etc, but does the fact that you might faceplant more get factored in at all? I mean being dead DOES kinda put a damper on your dmg output. Given what a complex issue it already is though, I'm thinking that that's really beyond scope. The question was ranking sets by DMG, not by whether you can do the dmg and walk away at the end.
Probably the biggest question though is "cherry picking". WHAT mobs are in the spawn can make a huge difference in the performance of the different sets. Spawns with buff/debuf mobs will favor sets with confusion powers, sets with no special abilities will favor raw dmg output and just enough mitigation to survive. Basically are we looking at a sets dmg output in actual PLAY, going through a variety of arcs? Or are we looking for dmg output in a min/maxed farming situation?
Arg
Here are my thoughts on a Test method.
A) Pair all Primaries with the same secondary and make that secondary very vanilla in its assistance on the Primary. My choice would be Forcefields. No +dmg, just a generic Defense boost to help get the controller thru the test. Status protection to even out the curve of crippling mezz effecting run times.
B) Each build would be level 50 SO only and using no Incarnate powers slotted.
C) Create a custome AE mission with mobs that are not resistant to any damage types, and deal only smash/lethal to the player.
D) Have the AE test be in two parts. The first part would have large spawns and be designed to test how fast the controller can mow down large groups of standard level enemies. The second mission would contain multiple Hard targets and designed to test how fast the controller can burn down tougher opponents.
E) Compile times for each run and for each mission. Then post and review results.
** You could also restrict and define which pool powers are taken and that each build must have all primary and secondary powers. Even possibly restricting which ancillary is chosen to minimize variables beteen the test subjects **
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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One of the reasons I like Controllers so much is that they have a widely varied gameplay. Each set has something different about it which results in a different game experience. All of the sets have a single target hold and an AoE hold of some kind, but even those AoE holds vary widely from PB AoE (Flash, Cinders and Glacier) to Targetted AoE one-shots (Total Dom, Paralyzing Blast, GDF, Vines) to Targetted AoE patches (Volcanic Gasses and Shadow Field). Other than that, it is fairly open. Two out of nine have no Immobilize. Two of the seven with AoE Immobilize do not have -Knockback. Some have mostly single target damage and lack AoE damage, while others have AoE damage and lack single target . . . and a few generally lack damage at all.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I agree that this could be an interesting discussion. However, we need some objective measurements to make it a worthwhile discussion. People's subjective experiences (including my own) with a powerset often lead them to a skewed perspective of what a set is capable. If we can make some objective observations of the single target, AoE, and pet capabilities, it will certainly help further the dialogue even if the value of single target damage, AoE damage, etc. are subjective.
While my testing will focus on damage (because I find it one of the most highly debatable aspects of control sets), I agree that it will not paint a complete picture; in fact, it will only address the question of damage potential when survival is a non-issue. However, that is an aspect of actual game play. As long as that is made clear to anyone examining the information, caveat lector. As to the second issue, I welcome suggestions and feedback regarding how these tests should be conducted. I consider you my peers and acknowledge that many of you are as well, or better, versed in the particularities of controllers. |
The problem I see with most testing is that you will have to either come up with (a) one test that is equally fair to the wide range if diverse sets, or (b) you will have to do a bunch of different types of tests designed to show the strength and weakness of each set without regard to playstyle or secondary. The only way to make (a) work is large-scale data mining. So your only choice is (b), and then the problem is how do you analyze the results of diverse tests compared to actual game play?
The third way is pretty much what I did . . . rank the sets based upon the opinions of players who are experienced with the sets. While individual opinions may vary, when you combine a large enough sample of opinions, that can be a pretty good measure of real game performance.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Frankly, I'd rather see the results of several test from which I can forge an opinion than the simple heresay of various players. As evidenced in this very thread, it's not difficult or uncommon for misconceptions to arise and be propagated among the community. Heck, I've heard and repeated that Entangle does more damage even with the numbers sitting right in front of me. How many of these errors float around uncorrected?|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
The problem I see with most testing is that you will have to either come up with (a) one test that is equally fair to the wide range if diverse sets, or (b) you will have to do a bunch of different types of tests designed to show the strength and weakness of each set without regard to playstyle or secondary. The only way to make (a) work is large-scale data mining. So your only choice is (b), and then the problem is how do you analyze the results of diverse tests compared to actual game play?
The third way is pretty much what I did . . . rank the sets based upon the opinions of players who are experienced with the sets. While individual opinions may vary, when you combine a large enough sample of opinions, that can be a pretty good measure of real game performance. |
With a multi-aspect test we can, at the very least, allow others to draw their own conclusions rather than supply them with preconceived notions.
I just want to chime in and say that, as an INTP personality type, I adore this thread. I also want to point out how awesome it is that this actually warrants debate, and that it seems extremely unlikely that there will be any clear-cut conclusions in the end. True variety and balance is really a wonderful thing!
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I have never done this on a controller, but I have seen it done and I have done it on my Mind/Fire dom for various reasons.|
Originally Posted by EmperorSteele
I think what ought to shove Mind a little further down the list isn't so much its "one AoE", but the fact that you don't have steady, reliable AoE Containment and/or the ability to take advantage of it. For instance, you can Mass hyp + Terrorize, but then Containment's broken, and you have to pick off the badies one by one. You can do Total Dom + Terrorize, but by the time Terrorize is back up, the Hold has worn off (unless your recharge and hold duration are insanely good).
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Telekinesis sets up containment. Turn TK on, throw AoE, turn TK off. Done well the enemy ends up grouped nicer than before the TK. With recharge this is a once a spawn thing, but an SG mate of mine said it worked pretty good. Of course, with a corner it can be left on as needed. Granted, this only works on smaller spawn sizes, but I thought it was nifty when I saw it done.
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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I would agree that a series of tests to measure each set's ability at certain tasks has some value. However, such tests must be designed, or at least interpreted, to take into account the unique aspects of each set. |
Originally Posted by ketch
Frankly, I'd rather see the results of several test from which I can forge an opinion than the simple heresay of various players. As evidenced in this very thread, it's not difficult or uncommon for misconceptions to arise and be propagated among the community. Heck, I've heard and repeated that Entangle does more damage even with the numbers sitting right in front of me. How many of these errors float around uncorrected?
With a multi-aspect test we can, at the very least, allow others to draw their own conclusions rather than supply them with preconceived notions. |
For example: I think durability of the pet makes a big difference in some situations, but it really depends on how much control you can put out, too. Both Earth and Gravity have very durable pets while other sets have more fragile pets. Gravity has weak AoE control while Earth has strong AoE control. If you choose foes who, for example, resist AoE Immob (like wolves), then Earth has a big advantage for having other types of AoE control. Wolves resist AoE Immob and Slow, but will be controlled by Stuns, Holds and knockdown. Earth has Slow, Stun, Hold and Knockdown, with the Slow, Hold and Knockdown being continuous patches, while Grav has a one-shot hold and a one-shot Stun only if used with Wormhole. The secondary Slow effect from Gravity powers would have no effect on Wolves. But Earth's Quicksand adds a huge unresistable defense debuff, making it easier for Rocky to hit. On the other hand, Singy has Repel that keeps foes from being able to do damage.
On the other hand, Electric Control can put out a lot of continual control that can substantially increase the durability of the otherwise fragile Gremlins. Do you measure the durability of the pet alone, or do you include the full set's ability to use control to improve the survival of the pet? And if the latter, won't the player's ability have an effect?
This is just one small part of one aspect of one type of test which can call into question the results of the test. While testing has some value, the danger is that people will make decisions only based upon those tests.
And this is another reason I like controllers . . . this level of complexity. For ranged sets, for example, you get get a quick and medium blast. Then most sets have a higher damage shorter range blast. Then a cone. There is a variety on the AoE damage
Illusion has spectral damage, and if you fail to allow for that in the design of the test, then Illusion will come out lower than it should. Earth's Defense Debuff will make it better against tougher foes who are harder to hit. Each set has strengths and weaknesses that must be considered in designing tests and interpreting them.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Plant - Creepers are insane and can be made perma and Seeds give you more damage potential (hard to gauge actual numbers though)
Fire - If you can maintain Lockdown, Bonfire can be a beast as well. Hot Feet can be kind of a tossup depending on your playstyle... If you don't mind the risk of LJing it, it can be of great value; if you tend to play at range, it probably isn't going to do you much good.
Three Imps means ongoing damage even if you lose one or two. Soulbound Allegiance proc. 
Dark - Haunt damage compared to Creepers or Bonfire... I don't know (doubt there's any comparison really). Umbra beast has more total attacks and AoEs than both Imps or Fly Trap.
I really can't speak on the rest. Yet.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I think we need to do 4 tests...
1) Grade sets by themselves vanilla also include APP and PPP combos.
2) Grade sets with Procs or possible incarnate content.
3) Grade sets according to Secondaries that best suits the Primary or sets that pushes the damage limit of the Primary to it's peak.
4) Discuss/Debate which combo would work in what situation.
Has Anyone tested how the KB proc works with Bonfire yet? If it work how it think it does then Plant has some scary competition.
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It's a pet summon and from what I've been told, the KB proc is ineffective in those type of powers. |
Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I think we need to do 4 tests...
1) Grade sets by themselves vanilla also include APP and PPP combos. 2) Grade sets with Procs or possible incarnate content. 3) Grade sets according to Secondaries that best suits the Primary or sets that pushes the damage limit of the Primary to it's peak. 4) Discuss/Debate which combo would work in what situation. Has Anyone tested how the KB proc works with Bonfire yet? If it work how it think it does then Plant has some scary competition. |
[....wait, which KB proc?]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
Ooh, that's a pretty good trick! I hadn't really though of that...
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I have never done this on a controller, but I have seen it done and I have done it on my Mind/Fire dom for various reasons.
Telekinesis sets up containment. Turn TK on, throw AoE, turn TK off. Done well the enemy ends up grouped nicer than before the TK. With recharge this is a once a spawn thing, but an SG mate of mine said it worked pretty good. Of course, with a corner it can be left on as needed. Granted, this only works on smaller spawn sizes, but I thought it was nifty when I saw it done. |
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Oh darn...well Plant is still safe! If the Proc worked in Bonfire it would Make Fire Control even more interesting! I was referring to the Overwhelming Force Proc.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
It's a pet summon and from what I've been told, the KB proc is ineffective in those type of powers.
[....wait, which KB proc?] |
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Oh darn...well Plant is still safe! If the Proc worked in Bonfire it would Make Fire Control even more interesting! I was referring to the Overwhelming Force Proc.
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Oh, that one (I thought you may have been referring to the FF proc)... I guess the best way to preview a similar effect is to take note of the damage Bonfire does while you're keeping them locked down with your -KB powers.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Stipulation: I didn't actually read the thread. But here's how I'd basically rank them, assuming moderate IOs, level 50, with the incarnate damage proc. Keep in mind these ranks are extremely conditional.
1) Plant
Roots and Creepers, mainly. Roots does insane damage. Creepers beats out Fire Imps for me mainly because it can't die. I'm also assuming we can include Confusion effects.
2) Fire
Very high damage, hard to rank versus Plant. Fire Imps are fragile and tend to die a lot, which limits some of their potential.
3) Dark
The damage in the caster's powers themselves aren't that great, but the pet hits like a truck and has a massive cone. Extra damage from the Spooks helps some but not tons.
4) Gravity
A bit better since it's revamp, but mainly single target. Confession: I haven't used the pet myself, because I stopped playing this set before finishing to 50. But from what I see of it, it appears to be quite far behind the Dark pet. Propel hits hard and in single target damage this set might be okay.
5) Electric
Middle of the road.
6) Earth
Mainly ahead of Ice because of proc damage in Volcanic Gasses.
7) Ice
At least it has an AoE immobilize to deliver proc damage and set Containment. Using it is kind of counter productive for control, but it's something. Post-buff-Jack Frost actually gives the Earth pet a run for its money in the survivability department, but the pet can't dish damage like the Dark pet can.
8) Illusion
The whole world is probably going "WTH?! Illusion is leet?!" Well, it is. But its damage is mostly all single target, and I'm close to 100% certain with similar build investment that sets with AoE immobilizes that bother to chase AoE damage can outperform it in general assuming they don't die. This set is so odd that it's practically its own AT. Great for what it is, not really in the running otherwise. Probably still somewhat overpowered despite being #8 on my list here. I might have given this a higher ranking prior to Lore pets but that's harder for me to justify now.
9) Mind
The pits. Strike 1: You lack a way to set easy Containment. Strike 2: You lack the ability to deliver incarnate proc damage over a 30ft area every few seconds. Strike 3: No pets to make up for it. Strike 4: Extremely long recharge on powers that supposedly make up for it. Strike 5: Youre dealing psi damage, which enemies are notorious for resisting. Strike 6: The incarnate proc actually cancels out what Containment you might get from sleeps, and makes the mez in Mesmerize quit working. I used to enjoy my Mind Controller, but after Dark came out I rerolled him and haven't looked back.
I think that Fire out damages Plant Due to Bonfire...but bonfire is hard to control and the damage is slow. I'm hoping that the -KB proc can breathe new life to Bonfire.
If it does Bonfire will be Fire's best power EVAR.
Singularity isn't the most damaging Pet but it's arguably the best pet in the Entire game and now it actually deals decent damage.
I still want to know about the AI I mean it seems to actually know when you are in trouble. It rushes in KB-ing and immobing everything...it's truly a sight to behold.
It feels like you're receiving an award for playing 31 levels of ****** horror and disrepair.
I urge you to at leas level one on Beta if you have never experience his awesomeness it's a shame about the set though.
I dont know Tex, just made 50 on My Illusion-Dark and only have a few IO sets so far and can run at +1/x6 without any trouble. And the damage is stellar. Phantom Army, Tar Patch, Fluffy's AoE Immobilize + Fireball just melts spawns. I suppose if there were no Dark Servant around helping me set up containment, it would be slower DPS, but not that much.
I do think Mind and Ice are at the bottom of the pile. Go figure, besides Fire control, those are the sets I have the most experience with.
::news flash:: If you ever play a new game and want to know what the weakest powers to choose are, just ask me. I am great at picking the underdogs.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
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Originally Posted by Biospark
I dont know Tex, just made 50 on My Illusion-Dark and only have a few IO sets so far and can run at +1/x6 without any trouble. And the damage is stellar. Phantom Army, Tar Patch, Fluffy's AoE Immobilize + Fireball just melts spawns. I suppose if there were no Dark Servant around helping me set up containment, it would be slower DPS, but not that much.
I do think Mind and Ice are at the bottom of the pile. Go figure, besides Fire control, those are the sets I have the most experience with. ::news flash:: If you ever play a new game and want to know what the weakest powers to choose are, just ask me. I am great at picking the underdogs. |
I think you're right that Illusion/Dark is a bit of an outlier. I can see it doing better than Illusionists in general. I may have undervalued Illusion.
As for Ice, objectively speaking, there isn't a lot that's different about it versus either Electric or Earth in terms of damage potential. The perception of lowest damage probably comes from opportunity cost (the link between control and damage dealing that prevents cage spam) more than it really being the lowest. Ice's powers are fairly standard issue, but slow casting and with some disincentives. Versus Earth and Electric, in my experience Ice actually makes the better farmer, although not necessarily a really good one. There's a silly video of me running a small scale old-school fire farm on an Ice character here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZyL9m4E1U. It doesn't compete with the big time farmers in the slightest--the enemies are +0 and without bosses--but IMO it does do better than what most people expect, especially since I wasn't actually built for damage when I did this and was noob enough not to use inspirations correctly.
I tried doing the same farm with a few other low damage characters but they couldn't really do it all that well. So at least my Ice characters paid for themselves, which I can't say for my Mind characters.Regardless, if Ice is near the bottom, Mind is waaaaaay below Ice. And yeah, my 2 main Controllers going into I21 were Ice and Mind, so I have a thing for underdogs .
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
I think that Fire out damages Plant Due to Bonfire...but bonfire is hard to control and the damage is slow. I'm hoping that the -KB proc can breathe new life to Bonfire.
If it does Bonfire will be Fire's best power EVAR. |
I'm going to have to go with Creepers over Bonfire; Fly Trap over Imps; Seeds over Flashfire; Roots over Cages. (Creepers lasts longer, can stagger its DoT (for faster damage), can actually increase its own damage during its duration and be kitted for more damage and procs).
Which leaves Hot Feet to make up the difference.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
Well, I think you have SUBSTANTIALLY undervalued Illusion. I think you value AoE a little too high. Illusion's AoE ends up being 5 pets, one of which has an AoE attack. You also don't recognize the survivability of Illusion and how that contributes to overall damage. When PA are drawing the attention of the foes, Illusion is free to attack rather than casting controls, debuffs or heals. Even Phantasm's survival is boosted by its Decoy, letting it stay at range.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I think you're right that Illusion/Dark is a bit of an outlier. I can see it doing better than Illusionists in general. I may have undervalued Illusion.
As for Ice, objectively speaking, there isn't a lot that's different about it versus either Electric or Earth in terms of damage potential. The perception of lowest damage probably comes from opportunity cost (the link between control and damage dealing that prevents cage spam) more than it really being the lowest. Ice's powers are fairly standard issue, but slow casting and with some disincentives. Versus Earth and Electric, in my experience Ice actually makes the better farmer, although not necessarily a really good one. There's a silly video of me running a small scale old-school fire farm on an Ice character here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIZyL9m4E1U. It doesn't compete with the big time farmers in the slightest--the enemies are +0 and without bosses--but IMO it does do better than what most people expect, especially since I wasn't actually built for damage when I did this and was noob enough not to use inspirations correctly. I tried doing the same farm with a few other low damage characters but they couldn't really do it all that well. So at least my Ice characters paid for themselves, which I can't say for my Mind characters.Regardless, if Ice is near the bottom, Mind is waaaaaay below Ice. And yeah, my 2 main Controllers going into I21 were Ice and Mind, so I have a thing for underdogs . |
You are also ranking sets based upon the set's ability to use procs and handle large groups in the end game. That's certainly a valid consideration, and if that's the criteria you want to use, then your rankings are not too off (other than Illusion).
I would say that leveling up, Mind is one of the better sets for damage in low levels. Only Mind and Gravity have a decent "attack chain" in low levels. But as the builds mature, Mind gets left behind on Damage while it gets better AoE controls. While other sets pick up one or more pets, Mind ends up with 4 1/2 AoE control powers. (I consider Telekinesis less than a full AoE control power -- it technically is a cone hold, but with a cap of only 5 and very situational use, I think it is fair to consider it a half.) I ranked Mind higher in my list because I took into account the time spent leveling up, but if you are only looking at performance at Level 50/Incarnate levels, ranking Mind last may be valid.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Local_Man
Well, I think you have SUBSTANTIALLY undervalued Illusion. I think you value AoE a little too high. Illusion's AoE ends up being 5 pets, one of which has an AoE attack. You also don't recognize the survivability of Illusion and how that contributes to overall damage. When PA are drawing the attention of the foes, Illusion is free to attack rather than casting controls, debuffs or heals. Even Phantasm's survival is boosted by its Decoy, letting it stay at range.
You are also ranking sets based upon the set's ability to use procs and handle large groups in the end game. That's certainly a valid consideration, and if that's the criteria you want to use, then your rankings are not too off (other than Illusion). I would say that leveling up, Mind is one of the better sets for damage in low levels. Only Mind and Gravity have a decent "attack chain" in low levels. But as the builds mature, Mind gets left behind on Damage while it gets better AoE controls. While other sets pick up one or more pets, Mind ends up with 4 1/2 AoE control powers. (I consider Telekinesis less than a full AoE control power -- it technically is a cone hold, but with a cap of only 5 and very situational use, I think it is fair to consider it a half.) I ranked Mind higher in my list because I took into account the time spent leveling up, but if you are only looking at performance at Level 50/Incarnate levels, ranking Mind last may be valid. |
I agree with most of your criticisms and also agree that different ranking systems are likely to produce different results. Illusion does do pretty good damage. I do think the AoE immobilizes do scary levels of damage as well, which played into my estimates.
Ever since Dark Control, Mind has been a bust for me. If you remember my arguments from a while back, I used to say with Mind you're basically trading away Immob to gain Fear... I now feel that was a valid statement before Dark Control and incarnate procs that compete with sleep. Hypnosis getting canceled by the incarnate damage procs just really eliminated the set for me as a contender. It's a bit less drastic as you level up, but AoE blasts come earlier now and with no good source of Containment Mind feels really far behind.
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Well there are so many factors!|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I'm going to have to go with Creepers over Bonfire; Fly Trap over Imps; Seeds over Flashfire; Roots over Cages. (Creepers lasts longer, can stagger its DoT (for faster damage), can actually increase its own damage during its duration and be kitted for more damage and procs).
Which leaves Hot Feet to make up the difference. |
Imps out damage Venus Fly Trap but Fly Trap can take more hits (which was a boost since fly trap would die if you look at it funny a few years ago). Imps push a head damage wise if you can keep them alive but Overall Venus is a better choice since it's great for control and decent damage...and it's a lot like Singy it will protect you if you're in trouble.
No doubt about it Seeds own Flashfire period no debate there!
Roots over cages definitely!
Bonfire...this power gets such a bad rap because it deals crazy KB and it takes a while for it's damage to shore up..also it's not proc friendly BUT it makes Creepers Nervous! With a High Recharge build you can almost get out 3 Bonfires at the same time! 2 Bonfires are the same time is gauranteed! That means almost 260 points of damage unenhanced! but the catch is that's within a minute and 30 seconds...making the power truly only useful with Super tough enemies. If you could turn the power to KD it would be used more for control and damage. So yes Carrion Creepers are better in everyway but Bonfire can be a force if it's used on the right Foe.
(I love laying down two Tornadoes, two Bonfires, Waterspout and Lightning Storm on AVs!)
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Originally Posted by Tater Todd
Well there are so many factors!
Imps out damage Venus Fly Trap but Fly Trap can take more hits (which was a boost since fly trap would die if you look at it funny a few years ago). Imps push a head damage wise if you can keep them alive but Overall Venus is a better choice since it's great for control and decent damage...and it's a lot like Singy it will protect you if you're in trouble. No doubt about it Seeds own Flashfire period no debate there! Roots over cages definitely! Bonfire...this power gets such a bad rap because it deals crazy KB and it takes a while for it's damage to shore up..also it's not proc friendly BUT it makes Creepers Nervous! With a High Recharge build you can almost get out 3 Bonfires at the same time! 2 Bonfires are the same time is gauranteed! That means almost 260 points of damage unenhanced! but the catch is that's within a minute and 30 seconds...making the power truly only useful with Super tough enemies. If you could turn the power to KD it would be used more for control and damage. So yes Carrion Creepers are better in everyway but Bonfire can be a force if it's used on the right Foe. (I love laying down two Tornadoes, two Bonfires, Waterspout and Lightning Storm on AVs!) |
I forgot that Bonfires could stack (so about 15 seconds of pretty good overlap damage)... but next time you're on your Plant/, go into your Detailed Info numbers for Creepers; its waaaay different than the Mid's numbers (about 3x higher); and I could actually see how that would play out..
As an aside: Another thing to note is that any damage Interface (and Cognitive) is really going to push Creepers over the top (it being multiple pet summon).
Speaking of that proc and Storm; Corrs are going to get a bit more interesting for me if I can land some of those KB-to-KDs.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Oh I know about the awesomeness of creepers...esp with procs and Interface goodness. I'm just trying to steer players away from thinking about Nerfing the living poo out of my Plant Control |
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I forgot that Bonfires could stack (so about 15 seconds of pretty good overlap damage)... but next time you're on your Plant/, go into your Detailed Info numbers for Creepers; its waaaay different than the Mid's numbers (about 3x higher); and I could actually see how that would play out.. As an aside: Another thing to note is that any damage Interface (and Cognitive) is really going to push Creepers over the top (it being multiple pet summon). Speaking of that proc and Storm; Corrs are going to get a bit more interesting for me if I can land some of those KB-to-KDs. |
.I wish that the KD proc wasn't a Unique. I would love to slot it in Lightning Storm and Tornado!
In other words, how much does this particular choice of secondary "improve" the primary when looking at damage output and would you think its one of the more significant pairings that boost production for a primary. And are their other pairings that significantly change the way a primary performs.
Sorry for the tangent.
Dont interpret this as saying Dark Servant should be skipped, just that he was a bit of a letdown. Likely because of higher than necessary expectations. YRMV
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF