Radiation Armor
By
Arcanaville,
Posted on: 2012-06-07 19:31 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Fire and to a lesser extent, Darkness as forms of armour, have been done a bit more extensively, it seems to me. Electricity, much less so, but, even if I'm recalling them as far more prevalent they truly are, you make my point stronger. It's over represented as a general category already, not under, while more traditional comic book fare staples remain unrepresented. |
Originally Posted by Hopeling
The same might be said of fire, darkness, or electricity, but enough people seem to enjoy them anyway
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I think any well designed set with a novel wrinkle would be well received and enjoyed, so one that sticks to a more genre archetypal feel would be much more exciting to me.
I suspect that many of the people that clamored for this set will be disappointed, to, sadly. I have always got the impression that the appeal of radiation as an amour type was to be super leet, since it's supposed to built in debuffs like Rad Emission, have a Damage Aura that does Toxic, but on the dps level of fire, and provide res based damage to all types like electricity, but also layer on lots of def and regen. At least that is how I often heard the Rad Armour described in it's many pitches. Yet I suspect the devs won't ever allow it to end up like that. If we get Elec Armour part 2, with a new wrinkle, it will have some people that like, I'm sure. But those that were hoping for the armour that can solo GMs and run on +4/x8 with just needing Brawl and not even the t1 from the other set will be unhappy that the set underperforms, and those that want a an armor type with a bit broader thematic applications will be disappointed, too.
That said, if it's visual effects are pretty variable, or able to be run in NoFX mode, I'll be all right with it as long as it works even 1/2 decently and is interesting mechanically, but I'd not be happier than I would be with some other choice.
Edit: The previous 2 posts, which I prolly should have read before replying to hope, sorta support my point. It's the 'I want debuffs like a corr or fender' but on my Brute/tank/scrapper concept. I don't see how this can be pulled off well. One way you'll have folks disappointed that he debuffs are too tiny as to be hardly worth it, the other you'll have all the support types miff and crying foul, or demanding support sets that are yet tougher and tougher,and provide self mez protection, etc. I don't see how that direction can make people happy, unless it becomes an arms race between the ATs, which is not a good direction to go. In my opinion, it's bad enough that it's going that way in the Incarante content, but at least that's end game. I don't want to see that start from level 1.
But, that's just my opinion. And who knows, the Devs might pleasantly surprise me by finding that perfect sweet spot that pleases everyone, or near enough.
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Well, it's a fun idea.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Edit: The previous 2 posts, which I prolly should have read before replying to hope, sorta support my point. It's the 'I want debuffs like a corr or fender' but on my Brute/tank/scrapper concept. I don't see how this can be pulled off well. One way you'll have folks disappointed that he debuffs are too tiny as to be hardly worth it, the other you'll have all the support types miff and crying foul, or demanding support sets that are yet tougher and tougher,and provide self mez protection, etc.
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I don't want it to be at the point where support characters (my favorite!) are useless.
But, also, being on a Radiation Defender who survives better than the Brutes that I'm wading into groups to revive... kind of makes me feel like I've already crossed *THAT* line.
Take a look at Shield as a set. It's got support abilities, and even a debuff to aid in survivability. By itself, it might not be the king of survivability, but it was designed to be played on a team. That's what I like about it.
More similar sets, I feel, would be very nice. Not full up personal survivability, but just a set that has more varying abilities (like Time manip) coming together to make a character that not only survives, but has some killing tools and group support abilities as well.
We've got an overabundance of melee sets and everybody is just comparing their damage output to one another, there's really a lot more room to explore new areas with the armor sets, somebody has to pitch them.
Edit: My idea for these sets would be similar to Fire Armor survivability level, but with tools that aid the group rise above. Note, I didn't mention the damage output of Fire Armor. For Radiation Armor, I don't think it needs a damage aura, maybe a few ways to slightly increase damage like the -RES I mentioned. Maybe about -5%..
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
Looks weak.
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Originally Posted by Hatred666
At first glance it sounds weak. I'd like to know more specifics.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
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Well, if you are typical, and the devs are able to well hit that sweet spot, then it might work out just fine. I just have suspect that your modest (and reasonable) expectations might not satisfy a lot of folks. For example, it seems as if Shield has lost a lot of popularity, since the t8 was balanced and the Hami exploit fixed. And those that do take it often omit the support abilities unless they can't fit in a 5 LotG anywhere else. So I don't think a new set, with a more limited theme, and on par with Shield will be a rousing success, and thus not warrant the choice of taking a more limited theme over a more classic comic style theme. I am willing to be wrong, though. Hopeful of it, even. And I hope everyone else that did want Radiation has equally realistic expectations as you express.|
Originally Posted by Virusman
Well, it's a fun idea.
I don't want it to be at the point where support characters (my favorite!) are useless. But, also, being on a Radiation Defender who survives better than the Brutes that I'm wading into groups to revive... kind of makes me feel like I've already crossed *THAT* line. Take a look at Shield as a set. It's got support abilities, and even a debuff to aid in survivability. By itself, it might not be the king of survivability, but it was designed to be played on a team. That's what I like about it. More similar sets, I feel, would be very nice. Not full up personal survivability, but just a set that has more varying abilities (like Time manip) coming together to make a character that not only survives, but has some killing tools and group support abilities as well. We've got an overabundance of melee sets and everybody is just comparing their damage output to one another, there's really a lot more room to explore new areas with the armor sets, somebody has to pitch them. Edit: My idea for these sets would be similar to Fire Armor survivability level, but with tools that aid the group rise above. Note, I didn't mention the damage output of Fire Armor. For Radiation Armor, I don't think it needs a damage aura, maybe a few ways to slightly increase damage like the -RES I mentioned. Maybe about -5%.. |
All that said, I *still* think a set based around a more classic theme could be built in such a way mechanically as you describe, an I'd have been happier with that (assuming it was well done, of course). If I'm in the minority on this, and everyone will be happy with a well balanced set, then I have no *real* complaint, other than of course, I'd have preferred them to make a set I can make an alt for sooner, as opposed to one where I'll likely have to wait quite a while for inspiration to strike before I get to try it out.
*shrugs*
Well, the OP asked for thoughts, and I think I've expressed the entirety of mine on the topic. My concerns on the one hand may end up unfounded. I hope so. My concerns on the look of the set may also be overcomable. My preference for a different theme, well, that's not likely to change, but I'm willing to keep my fingers crossed the next armour set after Rad may hit closer to the mark for me. The nice thing I do quite like about the game lately, is the wait for new toys is a lot less than it was in the past, it feels like. So if I don't love every new one, or even every 3rd, it's not like I'm outta luck for years...
Shield "seemingly losing it's popularity" can also be attributed to the last two Melee sets that have come out. Neither Titan Weapons, nor Staff can be used with Shield. The Hami fix hasn't changed my enjoyment of the Shield set. 
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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I can't wait to see the set in action.
All they need to do is add in "Radiation Burn" and I'll be all set. (<--- Inside joke) 
I think I must have missed the coversation where it was supposed to be a "super leet" set, can anyone fill me in on that? I do recall serveral different suggestions for the set ranging from mine (yeeeeeeears ago) to Alien's and Rangle's recent ones, others in between and coverstations during Tanker Tuesdays and on TankHQ. But, I don't recall any of them leaning toward an overpowered set (okay, other than my want of Radiation Burn...). In fact there have been some very creative and unique mechanics proposed for the set both on the boards and discussions (great job all!!). And I believe one of the devs was the one that suggested using the new absoption mechanic in the set (which seems interesting...).
Anyway, I like the fact that it isn't another "classic" set. I've done the Invuln/WP/Stone/Shield "standing in hell and surviving" and pretty much anyone can do it. So, I'm all for a set that has different/layered servival mechanics as-well-as different or new/unique graphics.
I can't wait, is it ready yet???!!! 
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Very valid point. I did intentionally add the modifier 'seemingly' because without some formalized survey, I can't prove or even argue except anecdotally that this might be the case. I do know that I've heard more than one voice state that SHield is no good any more. And that there is no point to play shield over (x, y, or z, depending on the speaker). I'm most assuredly not agreeing with any part of these opinions, mind. |
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Shield "seemingly losing it's popularity" can also be attributed to the last two Melee sets that have come out. Neither Titan Weapons, nor Staff can be used with Shield. The Hami fix hasn't changed my enjoyment of the Shield set.
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Yup, I still thoroughly enjoy my Shields. But you're right, I can't seem to get a Staff/Shield build that works for me for some reason.....
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Well, to touch on two points.. |
Originally Posted by NuclearMedicine
I can't wait to see the set in action.
All they need to do is add in "Radiation Burn" and I'll be all set. (<--- Inside joke) I think I must have missed the coversation where it was supposed to be a "super leet" set, can anyone fill me in on that? I do recall serveral different suggestions for the set ranging from mine (yeeeeeeears ago) to Alien's and Rangle's recent ones, others in between and coverstations during Tanker Tuesdays and on TankHQ. But, I don't recall any of them leaning toward an overpowered set (okay, other than my want of Radiation Burn...). In fact there have been some very creative and unique mechanics proposed for the set both on the boards and discussions (great job all!!). And I believe one of the devs was the one that suggested using the new absoption mechanic in the set (which seems interesting...). Anyway, I like the fact that it isn't another "classic" set. I've done the Invuln/WP/Stone/Shield "standing in hell and surviving" and pretty much anyone can do it. So, I'm all for a set that has different/layered servival mechanics as-well-as different or new/unique graphics. I can't wait, is it ready yet???!!! |
1) I seem to recall that discussion on Rad armour should have strong -regen and -res, be Res based, but include defense and regen, too, and some even also thought it should go further and add in a dam aura, and Boom type power from shield, and a clicky heal. Even without the last 3, it would pretty pretty vastly overpowered unless the numbers on some of these abilities were really low. And by that I mean so low many people would be disappointed. The impression I got is every person had a 'pet' ability they wanted included and with some real bite. And it seemed that everyone agreed that every good suggestion should go in,and none get left on the cutting room floor. Granted, nobody ever said, "I want an OPed set," or "I want a super leet set." But, if you give everyone what the want, and all in one set, it's going to be OP. I was trying to save myself keystokes though when I abbreviated as I did (super leet was my choice of words for a quick shorthand to describe a single set with every ability thrown in) in my previous post, and was hoping the point was clear. Sadly, it wasn't, and for that I apologize.
Second, a 'classic' themed set can still different/layered survival mechanics as well as different or new/unique mechanics and graphics. I'd just ask that all graphics for armours, (even ones I'd prefer to see) have graphics options and the option to opt out of a GraphicFX entirely. A set doesn't need to be thematically very niche to have interesting and novel mechanics and/or graphics. I think a classic powered armour set could be wonderfully novel in application and mechaincs, for example, and give layered survivability, and would have a much broader stylistic appeal. Especially with the Mecha costumes now available that would seem ideal. So please don't interpret my call for classic themes as a call for rehash of existing mechanics. I, too, very much want more novelty in new sets mechanics.
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The same set of features comes up in discussions about every hypothetical set, including new manipulation sets and new control sets. Its the normal stone soup feature creep that always happens. But that doesn't mean those forum conversations remotely represent what most players would be happy to play. The people who expect every set to be game-breakingly fantastic will always be disappointed, but I also don't think the devs should care about the people who expect every new set to be game-breakingly fantastic. They have expectations you can't meet, so don't bother trying.
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Originally Posted by Madadh
I seem to recall that discussion on Rad armour should have strong -regen and -res, be Res based, but include defense and regen, too, and some even also thought it should go further and add in a dam aura, and Boom type power from shield, and a clicky heal.
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Whether or not it was true from the outside looking in, I did try and keep my idea for Radiation Armor set "reasonable", and tried to avoid it coming across as OP. At least I hoped I did. 
Considering I kept getting responses from both sides of the "it's not powerful enough/ it's overpowered" fence I think I did OK.
Be that as it may, what I had presented has little in common with what was originally designed at the player summit. I'm sure that the set has evolved/changed further since then. Presenting my idea for Radiation Armor was certainly a fun exercise at the time.
I'm still looking forward to getting my virtual hands on the set when I can.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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From what I recall, you were very judicious. I feel pretty confident that if you were given the design lead that the end product would be pretty well balanced. I don't know if everyone would be happy, as I think expectations are above balanced. It may be just a very vocal minority, though, that want everything to be OP. I hope so. It didn't seem like you were the norm in the discussion, from what I recall. But, that's, as you said skewed from a) an outside perspective, and b) time; it was quite a while back.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Whether or not it was true from the outside looking in, I did try and keep my idea for Radiation Armor set "reasonable", and tried to avoid it coming across as OP. At least I hoped I did.
Considering I kept getting responses from both sides of the "it's not powerful enough/ it's overpowered" fence I think I did OK. Be that as it may, what I had presented has little in common with what was originally designed at the player summit. I'm sure that the set has evolved/changed further since then. Presenting my idea for Radiation Armor was certainly a fun exercise at the time. I'm still looking forward to getting my virtual hands on the set when I can. |
Either way, I bet it was a very cool experience, and if I were you, I'd be tickled pink with, even shivering with anticipation (insert Tim Curry here), and very justifiably so.
In truth, I'd forgotten that this largely your little quest. My disappointment over it's niche-ness is almost completely overwhelmed by my happiness for you. I hope it lives up to your expectations, excedes mine, and yet falls short of some peoples'. If you want, now that you have free time snice that quest is complete, if you want to champion a more traditional armour set....
Honestly, with the basic knowledge about what the set is looking like so far, Rad Armor should be very interesting to play. It's leveraging a couple of newer/unique mechanics to make it similar to some pre-existing sets, but with enough differentiation that it can carve out its own specialty niche.
A combo mini-nuke/self-rez power in lieu of a damage aura?
A power that alternately buffs regen or recovery based on need?
A set that'll probably have top-tier toxic resists?
Leveraging of the Heal/Absorb mechanic?
Then remembering that you can slather a buttload of defense all over the top of that?
YES! PLEASE!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
Keep in mind you can't realistically say any set is overpowered just based on the description of the powers.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
Hmm, a resist set stacking with a -damage debuff, regen/hp/absorb to heal it back, includes toxic/psi/end, and no holes in the mez protection. Sounds like it has potential to me.
The Bacon Compels You.
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Originally Posted by Virusman
Keep in mind you can't realistically say any set is overpowered just based on the description of the powers.
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Agree 100%. If that was directed at me, my fear was that the general expectations had been set, and a while ago, too, for an OPed set, and thus the results would be either..
a) Expectations met. And thus by definition it would be OP. I thought this less likely.
b) Expectations not met. Thus for the majority of the people clamoring for this the, the actual result would be a disappointment, and the set being very niche, it would be mostly unused, and thus not as worth the time as some other sets that could have been developed. I think this is more likely the case than a.
This is all assuming my initial premises are correct, which I don't claim to know for certain. Other have said, in effect, that my premises are wrong, and I hope that it is the case. If nobody, or only a small minority of the people that want this set want it based on expectations of it being much stronger than all the other armour types available, then my concern is unfounded, and both (a) and (b) can both be untrue.
Make no mistake, because I have some concerns, I am not calling 'Doom!!' I'm not threatening to ragequit. I'm not telling people that don't have concerns that they are fools. I'm just answering the OPs original question.
'Some concerns' + 'not interested in the theme'= Not excited about the set in the slightest.
Except that's already slightly changed. I am excited for Rangle now. I hope it's a good set for his sake, now. If it's an unpopular set now because it's not OP (big if, I'll grant, but even if it is the case) but Rangle still likes it, I'd still be OK with it. Might not be good for the game as a whole, but if an in-game friend gets some good times outta it, I'd be a lot less disappointed. I'm selfish that way, and I admit it.
So, long story short (too late!)...
I didn't say it was OP. I don't recall seeing anyone doing anything of the sort. The one person I recall judging the set without seeing the details went the other way, calling it weak already, which reenforces my concern about the sets power expectations not being able to live up to expectations. But proves nothing. We won't know anything for sure for quite I while I suspect.
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Well, I recall reading very brief posts stating both overpowered and underpowered, my comment was not directed towards anyone. Just the OP mentioning those comments.|
Originally Posted by Madadh
Agree 100%. If that was directed at me, my fear was that the general expectations had been set, and a while ago, too, for an OPed set, and thus the results would be either..
a) Expectations met. And thus by definition it would be OP. I thought this less likely. b) Expectations not met. Thus for the majority of the people clamoring for this the, the actual result would be a disappointment, and the set being very niche, it would be mostly unused, and thus not as worth the time as some other sets that could have been developed. I think this is more likely the case than a. |
Since we have no numbers to back it up, we can't say if the set will in function be overpowered, as there are a lot of things to take into consideration.
If we got a set that has Rage, Footstomp, Spin, Burn, ... etc. People would readily call that overpowered. But, if they knew that behind the scenes all of those powers took 10x as long to activate (21 second animation Foot Stomp! yay!) they would be calling it underpowered.
That's a bit of a drastic example and you probably already understand this, but that's my point.
In regards to A and B, I'd say a lot of people's expectations have been met with recent sets, without them (ahem, with an exception) being overpowered.
Similarly, a lot of people's expectations weren't met (Staff Fighting, for example, myself included) without the set necessarily being underpowered or unpopular. Just different.
Of course, it takes a long time to determine how changes will impact the game. Apparently Stone Melee has fallen out of favor for various reasons..
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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Lol.|
Originally Posted by Virusman
Keep in mind you can't realistically say any set is overpowered just based on the description of the powers.
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True, but that doesn't stop them.
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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One thing that Synapse mentioned at the player summit: Radiation Armor and Radiation Melee were very, very popular requests. If the set get's "close to the mark" I still think a lot of people will at least try it, and hopefully enjoy it.
Seeing what Synapse and Arbiter Hawk have done in the past, I suspect it should be a well balanced and "fun" set.
Look on the bright side, if it flops you can all blame me for suggesting it at the player summit...
Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....
Come show your resolve and fight my brute!
Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
Rangle's right....this is fun.
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LMFAO!!|
Originally Posted by DarkSideLeague
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I didn't even see that the first time.
Here I was thinking this post was more of a guy's wishlist or a preliminary suggestion.
Hopefully the set undergoes some changes, as it does look like a very wild card based on the more in-depth explanations, something I think I would enjoy, but also think could use some tweaking.
The very sound of essentially having two healing powers - one providing the temporary HP/shielding mechanic - seems very powerful. However, the actual resistance the set offers (not a lot) seems as though it would balance out.
Man, I'd love to have some temporary HP shielding for /Regen. Heck, Radiation Therapy sounds like the power I suggested to fix /Regen. Oh well, a man can dream.
-Proud leader of Captain Planet's Magical Friends
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If you think no protection against Fear, Confuse and Taunt is no holes, then you haven't played Dark Ward.
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Originally Posted by JohnnyKilowatt
no holes in the mez protection.
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I really should do something about this signature.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
One thing that Synapse mentioned at the player summit: Radiation Armor and Radiation Melee were very, very popular requests. If the set get's "close to the mark" I still think a lot of people will at least try it, and hopefully enjoy it.
Seeing what Synapse and Arbiter Hawk have done in the past, I suspect it should be a well balanced and "fun" set. Look on the bright side, if it flops you can all blame me for suggesting it at the player summit... |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I totally agree with this 100%. I loved the drastic example, btw. People don't seem to get that a power is a lot more than it's 'effect'. It's also it magnitude of effect. And it's it's speed (both in animation, and in recharge) and it's also its' cost. A great power can be made a lot less effective with a burdensome endurance cost. Until you can see the actual numbers you really can't judge. And even then, until you've played it you still don't have the full story. And even then, you can still have a skewed view if you played it with a sub or over optimal paired set.|
Originally Posted by Virusman
Well, I recall reading very brief posts stating both overpowered and underpowered, my comment was not directed towards anyone. Just the OP mentioning those comments.
Since we have no numbers to back it up, we can't say if the set will in function be overpowered, as there are a lot of things to take into consideration. If we got a set that has Rage, Footstomp, Spin, Burn, ... etc. People would readily call that overpowered. But, if they knew that behind the scenes all of those powers took 10x as long to activate (21 second animation Foot Stomp! yay!) they would be calling it underpowered. That's a bit of a drastic example and you probably already understand this, but that's my point. In regards to A and B, I'd say a lot of people's expectations have been met with recent sets, without them (ahem, with an exception) being overpowered. Similarly, a lot of people's expectations weren't met (Staff Fighting, for example, myself included) without the set necessarily being underpowered or unpopular. Just different. Of course, it takes a long time to determine how changes will impact the game. Apparently Stone Melee has fallen out of favor for various reasons.. |
So, yeah, the devs recent track record on balance has been pretty good. Yet some sets do well (popularity wise), and some don't. We'll have to wait and see.
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Too true.|
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Lol.
True, but that doesn't stop them. |
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
One thing that Synapse mentioned at the player summit: Radiation Armor and Radiation Melee were very, very popular requests. If the set get's "close to the mark" I still think a lot of people will at least try it, and hopefully enjoy it.
Seeing what Synapse and Arbiter Hawk have done in the past, I suspect it should be a well balanced and "fun" set. Look on the bright side, if it flops you can all blame me for suggesting it at the player summit... |
And yes, given Synapse and Arbiter Hawks track record, I suspect that it will be balanced. Not gonna agree (or disagree) with the 'fun' part however. Too subjective.
And 'Yay!', if it flops, we can blame you. So.... Don't we pretty much blame you for everything anyway?
PS: Love that image Hyper.. What's it from?
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I think the set will be reasonable, but judged on more modern criteria for performance in the game than has operated in the past. By past criteria, Willpower is a bit overpowered. By modern criteria, its about center of the bullseye for defense sets. I believe that within that context, Radiation Armor will have reasonable performance within the general vicinity of that mark.
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Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down
Seeing what Synapse and Arbiter Hawk have done in the past, I suspect it should be a well balanced and "fun" set.
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Anyway, I might recommend making a tweak- instead of doing -DMG, +RECH (both sound pretty familiar) maybe consider something like -RES. That'll increase your damage.. and the damage of your team!