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Originally Posted by Premonitions
There are definitely some valid points, but honestly, the PvP aspect of the event kind of precludes that. A lot of the story elements that involved characters like Xanatos and Johnny Turbo are clearly there to give the players of Phanto(Johnny Turbo) and Baron Blitzman (Xanatos) a way to have their heroes out of the picture so they can play the leading villains. Xanatos can't really be there to fight Baron Blitzman, and then bow out for whatever reason, because they have the same player. You could have a reason to have Baron Blitzman not be there in the beginning, then show up after Xanatos leaves, but then it creates that "You just missed him!" thing, which is very stupid. At that point it would have been better to involve different villains(controlled by different players) entirely, and that may or may not have been entirely feasible or even desirable.
Every storyline thing that occurred there could have just as easily have been done in an AE mish.In fact, it could have been better in that regard. Even allowing for the kind of minor storyline changes you want, because you can have X character played by x player fight an AE critter made to represent y character that is normally played by the same player. But then it wouldn't be a PvP event. Which kind of defeats the purpose. PvP isn't the kind of thing that serves itself well to major plotlines, it's just like that. In other words, it's not really the kind of event that lends itself very well to major shifts in story, as there needs to be story elements to accommodate the presence of the key players(ooc and IC) and the absence of others (ooc and IC). It wasn't an event to show off how awesome the Challengers and co are, so much as an event with an "excuse plot" to give us enough of a set-up to smack each other around. Like a slightly less violent social mixer. It's a definite step up from the last Infiltrator event they hosted in that the "excuse plot" had a more involved set-up,(as I recall the Blacklist seemed to just kind of show up and start talking smack) but the event's primary purpose was to get good guys and bad guys in silly outfits to hit each other. |
You have a point. Perhaps I was expecting a bit more than could be delivered. And there was the fact I was playing a Mastermind in a PvP zone (a surefire recipe for being utterly useless) that lead me to feeling more like this was a chore than anything fun.
And then I discovered that this nifty thing I'd been doing with my character (the Shogun), which was when he felt his interests were threatened to inform the heroes of what was going on, had absolutely no bearing whatsoever. I'm use to RP being much more of an involved thing, even if it was PvP.
And I'll be honest, I dislike PvP. The Arena is broken, and I don't spec my characters to be able to readily compete. However, the fact this was advertised as an RP-type thing kept me from just bowing out altogether.
And you're right, the "violent social mixer" was definitely what was going on. I had a different interpretation of what was going to happen, which I'll concede was my fault. I mean, if you wanted an "excuse plot" to call villains out though and get into a big-*** brawl, I could think of things that didn't come off as big story events.
I still think Xanatos' reaction to my casual comment that Shogun's attempt to mix things up ICly with his double-cross didn't go through was a little overdoing it. I didn't mind that much that nothing happened. Just a off-hand lament at the lack of the ability to participate outside of beating people up.
Which honestly, I do in PvE all the time. The fact that this time the people happened to be PCs rather than NPCs didn't do much to change what was going on, a glorified mission. I like being in a story, not just a bystander to it. And here I felt especially like nothing but a bystander. I could've done nothing but stand around and banter and it would be the same. Hell I -tried- bantering and just got killed for my efforts (my fault for being an AT that is balls in PvP zones)
The hilarious (in a tragic sense) part is the fact Shogun's attempt had no effect then means there's also no consequence.
Overall, I wasn't hoping to cause any sweeping changes, so much as I hoping that SOMETHING would happen. What happened here was basically the same as what happens in D every night: Posturing and threats. Only this time people actually threw punches in a place that actually ALLOWS for it.
I suppose it was my fault for expecting something different.
the other option for a RPvP event to have any kind of storyline and also be dynamic in that way is to treat the PVP aspect as legitimately important.
Either "stage" the PvP to the point that you are Playacting at PvP (I.E. I conceptually should/want to/ have to have my character lose this fight so I'm going to sit here and not attack and only do my tier one attack every twenty seconds so it at least looks like I'm fighting while you hit me with everything) which is an idea I've been mulling over
or
Just let fly with the actual combat and let whatever happens decide what happens and hope the other guy isn't some uber leet xbox live kid,or that both of you are the same uberleet xbox live kid, or you both suck equally, and also that PvP in this game isn't broken and imbalanced, and that the game itself actually represents the full depth of your character's conceptual abilities, and the nuances of actual combat, and that no mitigating circumstance occur, such as bad connections or interruptions, e.t.c. which is stupid.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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I played both Xanatos and Baron Blitzman. There was no feasable way for me to be on both characters at Siren's Call. I made an AE mission with Xanatos/Johnny Turbo/Azure Tracer in it to explain why they weren't there in the final battle. (Hint: Because the villains beat them up.) There was also no reason for Xanatos not to show up at the first ambush. "Because Shogun of Sorrow wants to hurt you later" is not a good enough reason.|
Originally Posted by Issen
Tsk tsk. Didn't have to reconstruct the entire event, but it helps to be adaptable to things that can happen. It's not really much fun for others to be in an event if the entire thing runs on a rail.
Perhaps, with Shogun's information, only a few of the Challengers show up to the other leads, and are prepared for the fact it's a trap. Instead of Xanatos being at the ambush, he could instead show up to give aid in Siren's Call, only to be defeated there and forced to bow out as others come in to take his place. There's all sorts of ways to make an event work that allows for the people you're inviting to feel like they're a part of something cool going on. Otherwise we're just an audience and background fluff. Not really much in the way of participation if all we're doing is watching a pre-set series of events play out while we mill about. It's like we're sitting in a theater watching a movie, in which case you didn't really NEED everyone else to show up except that you wanted an epic battle as a backdrop to your story of "Oh man, look how AWESOME we are!" If that's what you were going for to begin with, then you should say so. Fairly misleading to label this as some big event with the advertisement that picking sides means anything when the specifics of the conclusion are already decided on ahead of time, which rendered the idea of there being sides to begin with a moot point. The villains don't have to win. Obviously, they can't (Status Quo Is God afterall), but if you're to invite people to participate, and make a BIG show of how important the sides are... Well then perhaps you should account for and be flexible towards player input. What if a hero OTHER than the ones in the summary had made it to the bomb and disabled it before Devilfish sabotaged it? What if someone had defeated the Baron while he was running amok at the end earlier on? What if a villain had FIXED the damage to the bomb? It's good to have a script as an outline for what happens, but for it to be the hard and fast absolute of what will and won't happen...? Then this isn't really an event, it's you just trying to show how amazing your group is "supposed" to be. |
And look, I get your point. No-one likes to be just another face in the crowd. But when you have a event with 100+ people showing up, it just doesn't become feasible to allow each and every one of them to alter the plot direction in the MAJOR way you wanted to. We had four mission arcs already written and designed for the heroes by the time you decided to be a "double crossing villain" and tell the heroes not to bother with them. Should we have rewritten/redesigned all four of them JUST FOR YOU? Are you honestly suggesting that we should have made 400 AE missions on the off chance that each and every participant in the event wanted us to change the story direction?
I'm sorry. That's just not possible. And while you might not realise it, it's an immensely selfish way of thinking.
Honestly? I think the issue here is the old "double crossing villain" plot scheme. All it ever does is cause headaches, and in my experience it is little more than an author attempt to make the double crossing character more important to a story they don't have much involvement in. Why try and change the story direction? Does the story suck? Why not simply engage with the story and enjoy it for what it is? Why try and become the ONE IMPORTANT PERSON WHO CHANGES THE OUTCOME? What puts you above everyone else who would no doubt love to do the same?
What you essentially wanted to do was something called godmodding. Which is where you have decided what makes the most sense for a story being run by someone else, and you seek to forcibly change it in a significant way. Stop and think for a moment. There are many reasons that the event should have carried on the way it did. Maybe the heroes didn't trust Shogun of Sorrow as a source of information? Maybe they DID trust him, but had to check out the psychics anyway, for fear of not being negligent?
Do you see what I mean? You are overselling the importance of your ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL character in something that was a GROUP event designed for a lot of people to participate. For events of this size you are ultimately a participant in a linear plot progression designed by someone else. Obviously, because it's a big event, we wanted to make it a story that focused on the server as a whole, rather than The Challengers. (Which is why half of our roster got taken out in the AE...to allow us to play our villains, but also to allow other hero groups to take centre stage.)
I genuinely don't understand why you said the purpose of this event was to show "how awesome we are". I think you're projecting your own insecurities onto me here because YOU weren't able to show how awesome YOU were in a public event that was specifically catered for open participation. I'm sorry to hear you didn't have fun, but I think that was more to do with how you approached the event, than the event itself.
This is kind of interesting, because double-crossing the villains to try and save Foxy(and then act like it was an accident or purely selfish intentions) was exactly the kind of thing Mobilise would have done, but I just opted not to go for that for a lot of reasons.
Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Nope. Nothing of the sort. To be perfectly honestly, I'm surprised you didn't expect some sort of betrayal. It's the villain thing to do isn't it? Since when would villains completely trust other villains (especially given who Baron was employing: Devilfish)? And to say it's "old" and "gives headaches" is a bit laughable considering your very own story included such a double-cross (Devilfish double-crossing Baron and Phanto). But then perhaps it's because you wrote it in.|
Originally Posted by Xanatos
What you essentially wanted to do was something called godmodding.
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And speaking of Devilfish, you might want to talk to Devilfish/Noisebomb/whatever-he-goes-by and ask how he supposedly came by the information of Shogun's other double-dealings, which took place likely either before Devilfish existed in-game, or where it wasn't possible for the character to ever be aware of those events.
What I did doesn't even remotely match godmodding. Shogun was given explicit information, which he acted on by means of turning it over to the people it would mean something to. None of the information he gave was something he shouldn't have known, nor did it fall outside the scope of what Shogun was capable of doing. If by "godmodding" you mean "acting consistent with the character's personality" then you're right. That's exactly
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| Do you see what I mean? You are overselling the importance of your ONE SINGLE INDIVIDUAL character in something that was a GROUP event designed for a lot of people to participate. |
For starters you say "participate" but seriously, what "participation" took place? As Premonitions said, it was less a story and more a "violent social gathering", because, and let's be honest, anyone who wasn't part of the specific group in your script had no bearing on your story. No matter who did or didn't show, everything would've taken place exactly as you planned.
Once again, I probably expected what I come to expect from any RP these days:
1) A group is involved in a plot or story
2) Characters in this plot take actions
3) There are reactions to the actions taken in step 2
4) Plot progresses or changes based on these actions.
My comment which started this argument was a casual, non-chalant lamentation of the fact Step 3 didn't take place and Step 4 simply became "Plot progresses". I've never done these sorts of massive group events prior to this, and also had no idea as to the scope of it. On top of that, the few people who knew of Shogun's betrayal expressly stated "If Phanto finds out you did this, you're screwed." which lead me to believe that yes, my actions would have consequences (which I was okay with). I was slightly disappointed to discover this was not the case.
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| I genuinely don't understand why you said the purpose of this event was to show "how awesome we are". I think you're projecting your own insecurities onto me here because YOU weren't able to show how awesome YOU were in a public event that was specifically catered for open participation. |
However, the "How awesome we are" comes into the main point. At what point in your event, supposedly marketed for "open participation", and advertised as being a "choice between sides" did the members NOT part of your scripted group actually effect anything or play into your plot?
By your own admission you believe I was attempting to have the story altered from the ground up around Shogun's double-cross. But ANYONE, not just me, could've tried to take actions during the story to see something happen, or like me, because they wanted to be more active. But...
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| Why not simply engage with the story and enjoy it for what it is? |
And I'll admit, my enjoyment of the event was soiled by the fact I was playing on a character who expressly CANNOT function in a PvP worth a crap. I'm pretty sure I was the only Mastermind in that event, and since Misnomer was capable of OHKOing me with a Hidden Crit School of Shark with Purple/PvP damage procs slotted (Wooo for combat log!), I think you can understand my dismay.
On top of the "RP" part being essentially what I do every other day that wasn't this event on Shogun, I couldn't even do anything with the "PvP" part of this "RP-PvP" thing, since all anyone on the opposing side had to do was breathe on me and I would keel over. Perhaps that's partially my fault for playing a character ill-suited to a part of the game that's mostly broken anyway, but at the same time, how am I supposed to "participate" in an event like this when expressly invited?
(I won't even go into the fact Shogun has no rivalries or grudges going into the Event, nor was there anyone specifically out to get him or who disliked him beyond the fact he's Redside. Shogun's a little too Genre Savvy (As anyone who as RPed with him will say) to go around being a cliche villain and antagonize everyone in sight. If I'd TRULY wanted to be internally consistent, Shogun would've either not shown up at all, or shown up and gone out of his way to try and sabotage the plan even MORE. Which, for the record, isn't godmodding, but then you don't know enough about the character to know that, I think, since you call Shogun's double-cross "godmodding")
In any event, we'll just have to agree to disagree. Your story thing killed a few hours on the weekend, but overall I think you could've done things better. And you think I've got some fixation with being THE MAN. No sense in arguing the point further.
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As I said, I was tempted to have Shogun try and make a beeline for the bomb itself and interfere with the plot, but I was too busy getting butchered to try. I was sort of surprised no one else tried either, but then I guess villains double-crossing villains is more uncommon than it seems.
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Originally Posted by Premonitions
This is kind of interesting, because double-crossing the villains to try and save Foxy(and then act like it was an accident or purely selfish intentions) was exactly the kind of thing Mobilise would have done, but I just opted not to go for that for a lot of reasons.
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Originally Posted by Issen
And speaking of Devilfish, you might want to talk to Devilfish/Noisebomb/whatever-he-goes-by and ask how he supposedly came by the information of Shogun's other double-dealings, which took place likely either before Devilfish existed in-game, or where it wasn't possible for the character to ever be aware of those events. |
Bolding the wildly unlikely part here. Assuming you're a Ninja/Storm MM like your char was in that AE arc awhile back (Symphony of Madness?), even if you made that char the first day it was possible to do so, Devilfish is still about 2 years older than your character.
Granted, I dunno what "length of character playtime" matters -at all- but Devilfish isnt just some new plot NPC made up for stuff, if thats what you're implying.
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Actually, the "Shogun" in that arc wasn't the real Shogun, but in fact a very detailed robotic duplicate. Why? Because the character is Ninja/TIME, a powerset the AE arc doesn't currently allow. While disappointed, I made use of the fact the set wasn't available as a hint that the Shogun in the arc wasn't the real thing (a fact later confirmed when, upon defeat, the Shogun's clue indicated it was just an automoton the actual Shogun used to make sure he wouldn't risk getting captured).|
Originally Posted by Haetron
Bolding the wildly unlikely part here. Assuming you're a Ninja/Storm MM like your char was in that AE arc awhile back (Symphony of Madness?), even if you made that char the first day it was possible to do so, Devilfish is still about 2 years older than your character.
Granted, I dunno what "length of character playtime" matters -at all- but Devilfish isnt just some new plot NPC made up for stuff, if thats what you're implying. |
If you're right (and it seems most likely that you are), there's still the fact Devilfish had little to no involvement in the arc or the events of the arcs at the time.
I drew my conclusion of non-existance from the fact I only ever encountered Devilfish AFTER a number of the United Underworld's arcs were underway, making me draw the reasonable conclusion that Devilfish was a relatively new character the player had made for whatever reasons players have to make new characters.
TL;DR version: The character somehow had specific knowledge of events I know for a fact he had little to no involvement or participation in, leading me to conclude the player is meta-gaming, especially considering that the ACTUAL involved parties at NO point ICly made Shogun's actions public.
Therefore it's very suspicious for a character who wasn't being used or wasn't active in those events to know those details.
Please don't dissect my post. You will take things out of context. You didn't even comment on any of the points I made, nor respond to any of my questions, and you ended up just repeating yourself.
All of the concerns raised in your new post I've already covered in my last one. I'm not a fan of arguing on the internet as it usually always devolves into people visiting dictionary.com or quoting latin. I do appreciate the feedback though as the vast majority of the feedback we got from this event was positive, and ultimately improvement comes from working on the bad points.
If you could be a bit more specific about how we could improve the event then I'd like to hear it. (Genuinely.) Simply saying "allow more participant control in the story direction" is a bit vague. What exactly do you mean? What SPECIFIC things could we have done? Should we have changed the AE missions that took hours to create?
Help me out here buddy. It's easy to criticise. What would you have done instead?
One thing you asked:
"Did the members NOT part of your scripted group actually effect anything or play into your plot?"
Yes. The scripted group was myself, Phanto, Trioxin, Devilfish, and Red-Havok. Off the top of my head:
Worldkiller showed up to take on Dawnshift and the GDF by himself.
Nine Ball ordering the UU to retreat, which ultimately led to Baron Blitzman committing a suicide run on the heroes and being defeated, and Trioxin and Devilfish running back to the isles.
Replacer duplicating himself and fighting back scores of villains.
Quiz Master switching sides (to hero!) and trying to disarm the bomb.
Misnomer? switching sides (to villain!) to help Karnal Sin.
And perhaps most importantly...
Icon leading The Eternals against Phanto, defeating him, and disarming the bomb.
Your both pretty!
Srsly. Nice event. Let's all hug now. The event ended and all that stuff. I really enjoyed myself as Dominatriea so thanks for having me there with the rest of the United Underworld!
Luficia's Virtueverse Page
The information you gave actually factored into the hero briefing and AE portion. Heroes wouldn't have even understood the plot from the get-go or expected to be lead astray without your input, so you did have a bearing, it was just on a part of the event you weren't present for. I would've mentioned this in the little recap thing, but I decided against it. I didn't know if the United Underworld players were aware that Shogun's MO is to double-cross or reveal information. I didn't want to off-handedly tell everyone that on the off-chance that you, as a player, were keeping it a secret. I'm sorry if it made you feel unimportant.
Johnny Turbo | Phanto
THE CHALLENGERS: Challenge Accepted
HONORARY MEMBER: WARE.gov (Said I couldn't officially join because I'm too good at PvP)
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Indeed, wasn't trying to start drama. So on that note, we'll end it. Looking forward to Domi's event, speaking of UU |
Originally Posted by Alevan
Your both pretty!
Srsly. Nice event. Let's all hug now. The event ended and all that stuff. I really enjoyed myself as Dominatriea so thanks for having me there with the rest of the United Underworld! |
...Oh god I'm turning into GG >.<
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Nah, just me. I'm the prettiest.
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Originally Posted by Alevan
Your both pretty!
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Anyone Who wants to argue about my usual foolishness can find me here.
https://twitter.com/Premmytwit
I'll miss you all.
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Well, this sort of renders the whole discussion moot, AND I feel like an idiot to boot for dragging this discussion out.|
Originally Posted by JohnnyTurbo
The information you gave actually factored into the hero briefing and AE portion. Heroes wouldn't have even understood the plot from the get-go or expected to be lead astray without your input, so you did have a bearing, it was just on a part of the event you weren't present for. I would've mentioned this in the little recap thing, but I decided against it. I didn't know if the United Underworld players were aware that Shogun's MO is to double-cross or reveal information. I didn't want to off-handedly tell everyone that on the off-chance that you, as a player, were keeping it a secret. I'm sorry if it made you feel unimportant.
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For the record?
It wasn't the "unimportant" part that bugged me so much as there was no communication one way or the other. Xanatos lead me to believe the Shogun's action would've forced a complete rewrite. If that was the case, merely PMing me in game or on the forum on an in-game email saying "Sorry, but while we appreciate your participation, we couldn't use what you did without a significant rewrite." would've changed everything and completely deflated the disagreement.
Unfortunately, as I was never told and no attempt was made to contact me about it, I could only draw a conclusion based on what I had. I am thankful for the clarification though, Johnny.
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This did actually happen with a villain player character. Foxy shrugged it off and told him, "If I wanted to escape I could have a long time ago." Instead of leaving with him she stayed.|
Originally Posted by Premonitions
This is kind of interesting, because double-crossing the villains to try and save Foxy(and then act like it was an accident or purely selfish intentions) was exactly the kind of thing Mobilise would have done, but I just opted not to go for that for a lot of reasons.
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Shoot for miracles - the VALVe email campaign
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Yeah, Asunder approached Red-Havok with the information she had. Red took the info, and decided not to ask the source, so as to not sabotage whatever relationship Asunder had with them. The less he knows, the better - sort of thing. (I didn't actually know it was you, but rather assumed - after the last time).|
Originally Posted by Issen
Well, this sort of renders the whole discussion moot, AND I feel like an idiot to boot for dragging this discussion out.
For the record? It wasn't the "unimportant" part that bugged me so much as there was no communication one way or the other. Xanatos lead me to believe the Shogun's action would've forced a complete rewrite. If that was the case, merely PMing me in game or on the forum on an in-game email saying "Sorry, but while we appreciate your participation, we couldn't use what you did without a significant rewrite." would've changed everything and completely deflated the disagreement. Unfortunately, as I was never told and no attempt was made to contact me about it, I could only draw a conclusion based on what I had. I am thankful for the clarification though, Johnny. |
The information was discussed in the briefing, as JT said. All that was mentioned was "our sources" or "our findings". Red was never specific with how the info was obtained. That really wasn't what was important at the moment.
If it's something you would like included in the summary for historical reasons, then I'm sure we can add a line or two.
-=Crey Threat Profile=- : : THE CHALLENGERS on Virtueverse
Shoot for miracles - the VALVe email campaign
One day Shogun. One day you won't get away with you're betraying ways.
>you're
Naw naw, I kid. And ya know what, I know it will ;P That's part of the fun!
(And honestly, villains are hilariously fun to play)
Only one solution to all this
Memorial Mayhem part 2!!!
Anyone? Anyone?!
Feel free to make something up if you guys want! I know a lot of us are busy with current SG stories and real life. It takes a lot of work to make this stuff work but hey we'd love to see other groups do this stuff too!
I usually host one thing a year and it's not close enough to Halloween just yet!
Shoot for miracles - the VALVe email campaign
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Originally Posted by JohnnyTurbo
I didn't know if the United Underworld players were aware that Shogun's MO is to double-cross or reveal information. I didn't want to off-handedly tell everyone that on the off-chance that you, as a player, were keeping it a secret.
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Oh we know. And Shogun (or any other dissenters *coughhammersharkcough*) know that betraying 30 other powerful supervillains is a stupid idea.
Team Doom on the other hand, is open season.
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Originally Posted by Vyver
Oh we know. And Shogun (or any other dissenters *coughhammersharkcough*) know that betraying 30 other powerful supervillains is a stupid idea.
Team Doom on the other hand, is open season. |
I think that sounded vaguely like some sort of challenge?
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Supervillain chick fight?|
Originally Posted by ransim
I think that sounded vaguely like some sort of challenge?
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Seismecca vs. Trioxin
I'll bring the mud.
Great event! Unfortunately I was late but I ended up in Siren's Call 2 and got to see Havok and Phanto fight so that was pretty cool.