Why does Caltrops get such a bad rap?
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2012-05-07 13:37 in Player Questions
the big thing that makes caltrops annoying is the fear status it puts on foes
if taunted foes will usually stand on 1 patch of caltrops without running too much, but if more than 1 they will start to just try to run off of the patches causing massive scatter and causes melee toons to have to chase things down
if your a ranged toon it can be great to block off a doorway or to keep melee foes away from you though
tl;dr its the fear that caltrops puts on baddies that dmg auras do not have
caltrops is an awesome power, but the fear effect that endears it so to blasters & squishies makes it a PITA for any AT intending to hold aggro.
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So the stance that they do poor damage is, indeed false? (this is the position I see in the guides)
And much of the chagrin could be eliminated if the /Traps or /Ninjitsu toon takes some kind of an AoE Immob, KD or hard mez? Or if the toon is a Dom?
Does enhancing Taunt help counter the flee effect?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
I love all forms of caltrops, but only once I have slotted it for max slow and stuffed a ragnaproc in there for some knockdown goodness. I've never checked on its damage contribution though I tell you what, when I toss some trops out of my stalker's pockets, between the knockdown, the fear and the slow, the bad guys don't know whether to **** or go blind. I often get the feeling that I survive a lot of things I oughtn't to have done due to trops messing with the baddies.
It's not so much the scattering as it is aggro being completely dropped as soon as they're thrown out. All of a sudden the tank or brute or scrapper or whatever is seeing everyone around them die, through no fault of their own. And then they'll probably get blamed for not being able to hold aggro.
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Actually, if a tank loses aggro to a 'trops patch, they probably aren't doing that great at holding aggro (or the 'trops are being thrown out too early), and I say this from both sides of the equation.
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Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
It's not so much the scattering as it is aggro being completely dropped as soon as they're thrown out. All of a sudden the tank or brute or scrapper or whatever is seeing everyone around them die, through no fault of their own. And then they'll probably get blamed for not being able to hold aggro.
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Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
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Using CoD numbers as they're pretty reliable and fit my memories of either power...
Caltrops - 2.78 damage per second during 45s. End cost: 7.8 per patch.
Scrapper Death Shroud - 12.51 damage every 2 seconds, instantly. End cost: 1.04 every 2 seconds.
So that's 6.255 base DPS for Death Shroud, for an EPS of 0.52 and a DPE of 12.03. That would make Caltrops more than twice lower in DPS (also worth noting it is restricted by the pet damage cap). To match Death Shroud in DPE given those conditions, Caltrops has to hit enemies for at least 12.03 * 7.8 / 2.78 = 33.75 (34) seconds in a row. There's also the animation time on Caltrops, whereas the aura can be activated outside of combat or kept always on, and the aura taking a damage purple proc.
All of this discounting the scatter effect, which is significant and should not be ignored IMHO unless you have a fast-recharging AoE immobilize. Admittedly, it has a bigger radius. Still, I would tend to say if judged on damage alone, Caltrops is not competitive with damage auras. YMMV.
Caltrops is handy as mitigation if you're playing something where you'd rather enemies scatter than pile in and beat on you. (Say, when playing a Blaster who can't readily AoE all their foes to death). I think it's dandy to add procs to Caltrops so it deals extra damage to them while it's serving in that mitigation role, but I don't do so with the expectation that it's great damage.
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But I'm not judging on [base] damage alone (and have already acknowledged that particular point); see OP.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Using CoD numbers as they're pretty reliable and fit my memories of either power...
Caltrops - 2.78 damage per second during 45s. End cost: 7.8 per patch. Scrapper Death Shroud - 12.51 damage every 2 seconds, instantly. End cost: 1.04 every 2 seconds. So that's 6.255 base DPS for Death Shroud, for an EPS of 0.52 and a DPE of 12.03. That would make Caltrops more than twice lower in DPS (also worth noting it is restricted by the pet damage cap). To match Death Shroud in DPE given those conditions, Caltrops has to hit enemies for at least 12.03 * 7.8 / 2.78 = 33.75 (34) seconds in a row. There's also the animation time on Caltrops, whereas the aura can be activated outside of combat or kept always on, and the aura taking a damage purple proc. All of this discounting the scatter effect, which is significant and should not be ignored IMHO unless you have a fast-recharging AoE immobilize. Admittedly, it has a bigger radius. Still, I would tend to say if judged on damage alone, Caltrops is not competitive with damage auras. YMMV. |
The scatter can be neutralized and Caltrops can be stacked (you know what... I didn't even account for that in the OP, just went with what the numbers would be for a single patch at high recharge)
Multiple patches should double the listed DPS during periods of overlap (with extreme recharge... maybe even triple). You can't get that from an aura.
[4 slotted - 2 Damage/2 Recharge + Hasten = 12.09 DPS per stack = approx 27 secs at 24 DPS and 11 secs at 36DPS?]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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Pretty much this. Caltrops is a control power, not a big damage dealer.
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Originally Posted by Emberly
I love all forms of caltrops, but only once I have slotted it for max slow and stuffed a ragnaproc in there for some knockdown goodness. I've never checked on its damage contribution though I tell you what, when I toss some trops out of my stalker's pockets, between the knockdown, the fear and the slow, the bad guys don't know whether to **** or go blind. I often get the feeling that I survive a lot of things I oughtn't to have done due to trops messing with the baddies.
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_________
@Inquisitor
It's the attached fear that can be a PITA. Wish they were like quicksand which is AWESOMESAUCE.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Damage auras use no animation time. Caltrops does, and can take yet more time if you also have to immobilize enemies to prevent running, or taunt them back, or chase them down. Caltrops is best compared to other attacks, not damage auras, and it's decent as an attack if you can get enemies to stand in it for a while, but with a 45s recharge, still not transformative.
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Not really, it pretty much drops all aggro. It doesn't aggro them onto the person who threw them, it aggros them onto random people in the vicinity, because caltrops screws with AI badly.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
Actually, if a tank loses aggro to a 'trops patch, they probably aren't doing that great at holding aggro (or the 'trops are being thrown out too early), and I say this from both sides of the equation.
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Unless you are taunting 24/7, caltrops are always gonna be a nightmare.
And even then, it still causes horrible amounts of scatter.
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Base damage is good as a best case scenario for Caltrops, as being constrained by pet damage cap, weaker procs and animation time makes it lag further behind auras. Animation time is the biggest culprit; essentially, you have to figure out the weakest part of your attack chain you could replace with Caltrops and still deduce that damage to the total to get an appropriate comparison to a damage aura - still in a hypothetical situation you wouldn't need to care about scatter, which is a pretty big assumption in favor of Caltrops but yet one I made with all my numbers here.
| But I'm not judging on [base] damage alone (and have already acknowledged that particular point); see OP. |
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Of course it's rather dependent on the character if the scatter is "horrible" or not.|
Originally Posted by eth_Nargy
Not really, it pretty much drops all aggro. It doesn't aggro them onto the person who threw them, it aggros them onto random people in the vicinity, because caltrops screws with AI badly.
Unless you are taunting 24/7, caltrops are always gonna be a nightmare. And even then, it still causes horrible amounts of scatter. |
Doubt my very pre IO issue 6 Claws/Nin stalker would have ever hit 50 if not for her caltrops. The ability to cause all her foes to turn their backs while she picked on the one to die next was invaluable solo, or allowed her to regain Hidden or ... at least not clobber her for a couple seconds while her heal recharged as she ducked around a corner or doorway shielded by the caltrop patch. Using Focus, Air Superiority and Shockwave (often from Hidden) also often kept her target(s) knocked down within the caltrop patch.
As is nearly always the case how one uses the power in question often plays a large role in its value ... dumping the trops at the feet of the aggro holding melee character is probably not the wisest use of or how to therefore judge a power like caltrops (much as commonly complained about kb powers).
Doomguide
Because caltrops is also a slow, I've never found the scatter effect to be much of a problem. The enemies take so long to actually run out of the area of effect, they're usually dead before they can escape. Slotting slows makes it even better.
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I don't understand how you're getting these numbers. Caltrops ticks once per second. It deals 2.78 base damage per tick. By definition that means it deals 2.78 base DPS. Full ED slotting and a tier 4 Musculature will bring that up to ~6.4.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
[4 slotted - 2 Damage/2 Recharge + Hasten = 12.09 DPS per stack = approx 27 secs at 24 DPS and 11 secs at 36DPS?]
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In order for a single stack to deal 12.09 DPS to anything without resistance debuffs it would need to be doing 434% damage. No AT/set with access to caltrops has access to that kind of long-lasting high-magnitude damage buff (outside of hunting by a contact for infinite red skittles), which is necessary because buffs will only affect damage if applied before the patch is cast, and only for the duration of the buff. Aside from that, pet damage buff cap is only 400%.
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How is animation (activation?) time and attack chain relevant to spamming and stacking AoEs (especially after the initial application)? Many AoE powers run a similar activation time and can also disrupt ST chains; just like 'trop powers.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Base damage is good as a best case scenario for Caltrops, as being constrained by pet damage cap, weaker procs and animation time makes it lag further behind auras. Animation time is the biggest culprit; essentially, you have to figure out the weakest part of your attack chain you could replace with Caltrops and still deduce that damage to the total to get an appropriate comparison to a damage aura - still in a hypothetical situation you wouldn't need to care about scatter, which is a pretty big assumption in favor of Caltrops but yet one I made with all my numbers here.
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Even the pet damage cap (what's the % on that anyhow?) should only marginally affect its damage being that it gets its best DPS buff from recharge and stacking.
We'll assume (as an example) that were using a toon with an AoE Immob to hold down a 'spiked' mob.
At base stats, we're looking at an auto-hit 2.74 DPS.
Without slotting for damage, we're going to throw two lvl 50 IO recharges into it. Now we're up to 4.89 DPS if we wait for one patch to clear before applying the next; if we forgo the wait, we can stack another patch at the 26.58 sec mark (recharge+activation) for an 18.5 second DPS of 9.78.
Adding Hasten (boosting us to 6.59 DPS), we can stack at the 19.39 sec mark (giving us 13.18 DPS) and again at the 38.78 sec mark (giving us 19.76 DPS); maintaining it until the effects of Hasten expire. Equivalent global recharge allows us to maintain the high end DPS until combat end.
(Even an equivalently slotted Burn (mechanically similar) with Hasten applied only gets up to 11.22 DPS (in a smaller radius); yet people seem to give it more credit than trop powers)
Applying 2 level 50 damage IOs (assuming 84% doesn't breech the pet damage cap) to our prior equation starts us off at 12.09 DPS, leads into 24.18 DPS and tops out at 36.27 DPS (auto-hit and without scatter)
Addressing scatter:
Most damage auras (and I'm making this specific comparison because its also a power that primarily does it's damage through Minor DoT) have a smaller radius than trop powers; meaning that it takes less for a mob to fall out of (ie. be 'scattered out of') aura range than it does for one to fall out of trop range - losing DPS
if you're not a Brute or Tanker, chances are that you're not holding aggro well enough to keep them at such close range (unless you're using an AoE mez) - losing DPS
So, in both regards, I'm seeing little factual input to support such a fan-base for (non-Brute) damage auras as opposed to such a small one for trop powers outside of it negating aggro control on a team that is actively utilizing it? The DPS is there, the mitigation is there, the range, radius and the ability to lock mobs into it is available for almost all toons that can take trops. What else does it need to be considered a valid AoE DPS tool?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Quote:
I'm fiddling in Mids' to get the numbers. The DPS is being modified whenever I apply a damage buff or a recharge buff. If there is an error in this; please let me know.|
Originally Posted by Wonderslug
I don't understand how you're getting these numbers. Caltrops ticks once per second. It deals 2.78 base damage per tick. By definition that means it deals 2.78 base DPS. Full ED slotting and a tier 4 Musculature will bring that up to ~6.4.
In order for a single stack to deal 12.09 DPS to anything without resistance debuffs it would need to be doing 434% damage. No AT/set with access to caltrops has access to that kind of long-lasting high-magnitude damage buff (outside of hunting by a contact for infinite red skittles), which is necessary because buffs will only affect damage if applied before the patch is cast, and only for the duration of the buff. Aside from that, pet damage buff cap is only 400%. |
[Is mid's already calcing in the stacks?]
[So slotted for recharge and damage and using Hasten it would only start off at 5.03 DPS, transition into 10.06 DPS and top out at 15.09 (w/o further damage buffing); while auras would a consistent 10.19 (2-slotted for damage)?]
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
Caltrops is the second highest DPA attack on my Kat/Fire/Wpn scrapper, although it is basically tied with Soaring Dragon (and any external short duration buffs, like an ally running Assault will push Soaring ahead). I use them every time they are recharged in my AV fights, despite redraw. I also use them frequently throughout regular missions.
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Blue Pyroken: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Katana
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Weapon Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Gambler's Cut -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(3), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(15), Achilles-DefDeb(43), Achilles-ResDeb%(43)
Level 1: Fire Shield -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(11), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), ImpArm-ResDam(40)
Level 2: Flashing Steel -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(3), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(5), Oblit-Dmg(15), Oblit-%Dam(37), Achilles-ResDeb%(46)
Level 4: Healing Flames -- Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal(17), Dct'dW-Rchg(37)
Level 6: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 8: Divine Avalanche -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(9), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(9), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(11), T'Death-Dam%(37), LkGmblr-Rchg+(46)
Level 10: Build Up -- AdjTgt-Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg(42)
Level 12: Blazing Aura -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Oblit-%Dam(13), Oblit-Dmg(13), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(39), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(40)
Level 14: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A), Mrcl-Rcvry+(23)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(34), ImpArm-ResDam(40)
Level 18: The Lotus Drops -- Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(19), Oblit-Dmg(31), Oblit-%Dam(31)
Level 20: Stamina -- P'Shift-End%(A), P'Shift-EndMod(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(42), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(45)
Level 22: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(23), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 24: Consume -- Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(25), Efficacy-Acc/Rchg(25), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc(39), Efficacy-EndMod(42)
Level 26: Soaring Dragon -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(27), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(27), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(29), LdyGrey-%Dam(29), Achilles-ResDeb%(31)
Level 28: Super Speed -- Winter-ResSlow(A)
Level 30: Temperature Protection -- S'fstPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 32: Golden Dragonfly -- Oblit-Dmg(A), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Oblit-%Dam(34), Achilles-ResDeb%(43)
Level 35: Burn -- Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg(36), M'Strk-Dmg/Rchg(36)
Level 38: Rise of the Phoenix -- Numna-Heal/Rchg(A), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Caltrops -- TmpRdns-Dmg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(45), P'ngTtl-Dmg/Slow(45), AirB'st-Dmg/Rchg(46), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(50)
Level 44: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 47: Tactics -- AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx(48), AdjTgt-ToHit(48), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg(48)
Level 49: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Acc-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- HO:Micro(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve
Level 0: Portal Jockey
Level 0: Task Force Commander
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion
Level 1: LEGACY BUILD
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
------------
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That's because Mids deals with powers like caltrops by summing up the maximum possible damage over the complete duration and treating it as a lump sum. That's not how they actually behave in game. For patch-type powers, every tick of damage occurs at a specified interval (the Activate Period, if you look at City of Data), and every tick is resolved as a completely separate, independent attack. That means the only buffs that apply to a given tick are the buffs active at the time that specific tick occurs.|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
I'm fiddling in Mids' to get the numbers. The DPS is being modified whenever I apply a damage buff or a recharge buff. If there is an error in this; please let me know.
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Patch powers also work by creating pets to deal the damage. Most (but by no means all) such powers inherit some or all of the buffs active on the caster at the time they are created. Buffs applied after the pet has been created do not transfer, and inherited buffs on the pet expire at the same time they expire on the caster.
So using Aim and then Caltrops, for example, will boost at best 7, maybe 8 ticks of Caltrops, accounting for the animation time of both powers. (I'm assuming Caltrops does actually inherit damage buffs in the first place; my memory's not 100% on that.) Using Caltrops and then Aim will accomplish nothing.
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Originally Posted by Wonderslug
That's because Mids deals with powers like caltrops by summing up the maximum possible damage over the complete duration and treating it as a lump sum. That's not how they actually behave in game. For patch-type powers, every tick of damage occurs at a specified interval (the Activate Period, if you look at City of Data), and every tick is resolved as a completely separate, independent attack. That means the only buffs that apply to a given tick are the buffs active at the time that specific tick occurs.
Patch powers also work by creating pets to deal the damage. Most (but by no means all) such powers inherit some or all of the buffs active on the caster at the time they are created. Buffs applied after the pet has been created do not transfer, and inherited buffs on the pet expire at the same time they expire on the caster. So using Aim and then Caltrops, for example, will boost at best 7, maybe 8 ticks of Caltrops, accounting for the animation time of both powers. (I'm assuming Caltrops does actually inherit damage buffs in the first place; my memory's not 100% on that.) Using Caltrops and then Aim will accomplish nothing. |
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.
The DPS is still good though; just not 36.0+ good.
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars
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IMX, there's not much of a fanbase for non-Brute(/Tanker) damage auras, other than Hot Feet. Heck, if you ask about a secondary with a damage aura over in the Scrapper forums, half the replies will probably tell you to roll a Brute instead because damage auras suck on Scrappers. (Which is something of an exaggeration, but the point is that it's a pretty widespread opinion among players.)|
Originally Posted by Yogi_Bare
So, in both regards, I'm seeing little factual input to support such a fan-base for (non-Brute) damage auras
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Caltrops is decent, but you're extremely unlikely to get the full 45 seconds of damage on most targets, because they'll move out or simply die from other things. If we use, say, 15 seconds as a more realistic estimate, it effectively becomes a 42-damage AoE with a 45-second base recharge, which isn't particularly exciting. For sustained single-target DPS, if you can get them to stand in it, it has a pretty good DPA... but still a 45-second recharge, so you're not really improving your overall DPS by much, and it's usually not worth a power pick for a couple extra DPS on AVs.
It's a decent power once you consider its control/mitigation abilities, and proc-trops can be cool, but the power's damage by itself isn't awesome.
I'm comparing DPS numbers in Mid's (between 'trops and damage auras)... why do (non-brute) players tend to swear by damage auras but kick 'trop powers to the curb? (as evidenced by forum opinion [and] many of the player guides involving one or the other)
Taking only damage into account, if both were unslotted (or SO/IO slotted the same for damage), I could see some justification for that call.
However, 'trops don't need to make an ACC check and cost less EPS than auras. And while auras can only up their DPS by damage buffing (sans -RES); 'trops can do this plus benefit from local and global recharge buffs to keep pace (assuming that BU powers don't affect them; otherwise 'trops actually surpasses auras by quite a bit).
Plus 'trops have the advantage of range and mitigation.
Is there something I'm overlooking?
Apparently, I play "City of Shakespeare"
*Arc #95278-Gathering the Four Winds -3 step arc; challenging - 5 Ratings/3 Stars (still working out the kinks)
*Arc #177826-Lights, Camera, Scream! - 3 step arc, camp horror; try out in 1st person POV - 35 Ratings/4 Stars