Information Gathering for future Ultra-mode capable PC
By
Father Xmas,
Posted on: 2012-04-23 23:53 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
I'll make it simple.
CPU: Intel 2500K
RAM: 8GB of DDR3
Video Card: AMD 6850 or better/Nvidia 560 or better
Hard Drive: 120GB or more Intel SSD
Quality PSU: Antec, Corsair, Seasonic
Everything else are details. Sure, a good case is nice and trust me, I like big cases because small cases are a pain in the you know where to work on.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
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Is there a reason you chose a 120Gb SSD instead of something like a 60/80Gb? I'd likely just have the OS, SWAP on it unless someone has a better reason.
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Originally Posted by newchemicals
I'll make it simple.
CPU: Intel 2500K RAM: 8GB of DDR3 Video Card: AMD 6850 or better/Nvidia 560 or better Hard Drive: 120GB or more Intel SSD Quality PSU: Antec, Corsair, Seasonic Everything else are details. Sure, a good case is nice and trust me, I like big cases because small cases are a pain in the you know where to work on. |
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I would think you'd want to install all the apps you use even moderately often. For example, I have CoH on my SSD, but the test and beta installs on a conventional HD. I've got Office on there, Photoshop, my browser, anti-virus, etc, etc. I'm using 47GB currently so 60 would have been cutting it close. I went with 128.|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
Is there a reason you chose a 120Gb SSD instead of something like a 60/80Gb? I'd likely just have the OS, SWAP on it unless someone has a better reason.
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6-8 core CPU sounds like overkill. Four cores with hyperthreading is a pretty epic amount of processing power.
Might want to go more than 8GB of RAM. Maybe. I have 8 and I can run 2 instances of CoH and a horrendous load of junk in the background (like 8 instances of SETI@home) without getting anywhere near 8. (Running two instances now, plus Excel, browser, IM, Skype, 8 SETI@home, anti-virus, anti-malware and a few utilities and I'm using 4.14GB.) More RAM can't hurt - especially if it happens to be cheap when you're ready to buy.
BTW, everything newchemicals said sounds good. If I were to take exception to any of it, I would include the motherboard as one of the key components, rather than a "detail". I really like Asus and Gigabyte. For power supplies, my last 3 builds used Antec. (My current case is an Antec 900.)
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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You don't even need hyper-threading, the i5-2500K has an epic amount of processing power and you should be able to overclock to 4GHz simply by raising the multiplier in the BIOS. No need to fiddle with bus clocks or voltage like in the old days. The benefits of an i7-2600K's hyper-threading are niche, though, which is why the i5 gets so much attention.|
Originally Posted by Ironblade
6-8 core CPU sounds like overkill. Four cores with hyperthreading is a pretty epic amount of processing power.
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A 128GB SSD should be about $150, which is what 64GB SSDs were at just a year ago. You never know what you might want to put on there, and having more space than needed is better than realizing you're running low. I just bought a second SSD for that reason. Once you get used to load times on the few games you've got on your SSD, the games installed on your HDD will feel like they take an eternity to start up or zone.
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If you use a 60/80 GB SSD you'll find out very quickly that the 60 is too small and the 80 is just barely enough. You'll end up spending 80% more because you'll end up going out and buying a 120GB after you realize saving a few pennies on a smaller drive wasn't worth it.|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
Is there a reason you chose a 120Gb SSD instead of something like a 60/80Gb? I'd likely just have the OS, SWAP on it unless someone has a better reason.
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80GB drives pricewise are roughly the same as 120GB drives now. So why you want to waste money?
Really cheap 60GB sell for about $80. you might find some really no name brand for $60. Again, you'll see how fast an SSD is and end up buying a 120GB.
H: Blaster 50, Defender 50, Tank 50, Scrapper 50, Controller 50, PB 50, WS 50
V: Brute 50, Corruptor 50, MM 50, Dominator 50, Stalker 50, AW 50, AS 50
Top 4: Controller, Brute, Scrapper, Corruptor
Bottom 4: (Peacebringer) way below everything else, Mastermind, Dominator, Blaster
CoH in WQHD
If you are looking at virtualising your builds then I'd probably go with Win7 Pro rather than Home Premium - of course if that spreadsheet contains keys for Ultimate that will do as well although I don't see any need to go above Pro on a home system.
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
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Agreed, the only reason I can remember for even considering Ultimate is if I wanted BitLocker which I don't think I'd need for my purposes.|
Originally Posted by Gaia
If you are looking at virtualising your builds then I'd probably go with Win7 Pro rather than Home Premium - of course if that spreadsheet contains keys for Ultimate that will do as well although I don't see any need to go above Pro on a home system.
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Edit: the "Virtualization" I was looking into is related to possible future OS testing (IE: Win8, Win9...) or perhaps actual game development, but now that I think about it, it's probably easier to skip that aspect as (if / by the time) the latter comes into play I'll likely be focusing on specific hardware for that and not have it on a primary system. It may just be easier to swap HDDs until then as the virtualization software I have doesn't seem to all full system access. IE: doesn't like 3D graphics, etc. Well, that and I've only just begun to understand true VHD configurations.
nVidia GPU Lineup:
I started looking into this, but man am I out of date on these things. To Many NUMBERS!!!!!! From the looks of it, the GTX 590 actually out performs the GTX 680 series.
SSD Considerations:
I'm looking at these and wondering where Intel has the real advantage (as recomended above)?
Crucial 128Gb
Plextor 128Gb
Intel 120Gb
Corsair 180Gb
RAM Considerations:
I think I've settled on 16Gb of RAM (IDK, it sounds right for some reason). From the looks of it prices hover around $100. If I'm reading the CPUs and Motherboards correctly, then I'm needing dual channel (2x8Gb) DDR3 running at 1066Mhz or 1033Mhz. I started looking at CAS speeds and ended up on wiki because of all the extra digits. It seems they've changed how things are done because RAM is no longer a (likely) possible bottleneck. I've had luck with this G.Skill brand so far and they're usually nicely priced and rated, but I'm confused between the two listed here.
G.Skill Ares CAS 9-9-9 <--- Considering this one just for the MEH factor :-p
G.Skill Ripjaw CAS 9-9-9-24
I'm guessing that the latter is some kind of more specialized set as the CAS are listed identically except for the last number. Any insight into what this is about? Am I looking at the right type of RAM for these conditions?
Okay first suggestion, pull the CODE tags off. Makes it easier to read. They're only on in my guide to make copying the text easier.
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Okay if you're playing on a TV of that size, you're playing at 1280x720 (720p IIRC) to get clear text. Basically any mid-to-upper range video card is going to deliver insane framerate even with nearly everything turned on/maxed out.|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
*grabs dice* Ok, Aries needs a new pair of...I mean some assistance with etching out a future build. Obviously it's not going to be soon and I'm not even sure what my limits are at this point so consider this an 'evolving' discussion (yes, even if I de-evolve into squirrel banter).
Obligatory Template: 1) What will you primarily be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc Let's start with what will handle CoX in Ultra mode on the prettiest/best case senario and go from there. There's a strong likelyhood that something with a hot swappable (or reasonably easily accessible) primary HDD would be prefered as I like to do things like test out Beta OS' (most recently, Win 8) and being able to comfortably handle x64 virtualization at the hardware level would be awesome (even if I'm still new to VHDs). I'll likely be looking into a wireless setup (mouse, kb, wifi card) so I can get off the floor and back onto my comfy bed. Output to my 40" HDTV via HDMI would be AWESOME as my Apple G4's occupying the D-SUB already. |
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2) What's your budget? (Real Dollars) Are tax and shipping included? This is important as it allows people trying to help you to suggest things appropriate to your budget. Yeah, right now we're playing with monopoly money, but 'pretend' I'm broke and simply looking at scalible options. |
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3) Where do you live? This is important as it affects what vendors you may buy from and how much shipping costs might be. U.S., Pinn, need I say more really? |
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4) Are you planning to buy or build? Aries likes to tinker! ^.^ Upto the point that I moved to laptops entirely (~Vista RC era), I'd been working on AMD builds for my evolving tower because intel was ubber expensive in comparison. But then again, ATI cards were awesome, Voodoo cards were sweet, and nVidia was probably in diapers. While I could solder to save my life, I no the difference between an ISA slot and that wrinkle forming on Hyperstrikes forehead about now. |
*SMITE!*
Okay, current "best bang for the buck" is the i2500K.
HOWEVER, Intel's Ivy Bridge just hit the street (and should be trickling in to retailers now). The new i5 3750K looks to be in roughly the same league with a slight IPC advantage in certain apps and a similar price point.
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5) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need. If you're unsure what exactly you need, say so. We're starting with pipe dreams and dust so...Everything is valid as any component I may have right now, save an IDE CDRW, is likely way outdated. |
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6) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model. Once we actually start making a list of parts that work, then I can 'see' if I have something that'll work. Not bloody likely, but yeah. |
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7) Will you be overclocking? While I understand the urge to do so, I've never really had the desire to personally as you've got to be very careful as you could ruin more than just your warranty sometimes. |
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8) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have? ATM, I really don't have anything that I'll be keeping except for the afore mentioned HDTV. |
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9) When do you plan on building/buying the PC? If I'm lucky or (better chance) the GPU in my backup laptop finally dies, then Maybe by year's end. |
i5 2500K and a Sandy Bridge Z68 motherboard.
If you're buying around year's end, basically replace with an equivallent
i5 3750K and a Z77 board.
Also, the mid-range nVidia 6** series should be out by then too.
Going to recommend you a 560 Ti for right now.
10) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc.
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| I'd like to go as far into future proofing as possible so things like USB 3.0 ports, whatever the higher spec SATA bus is, etc. I don't use anything that needs firewire and not quite comfortable with RAID yet (haven't made it to that chapter on the bookshelf yet), but I do understand that many boards come with these anyway. I was curious about SLI, but not sure I want to go so far as dealing with a dual/triple GPU system. Especially since that basically supersizes the budget. I'm always in need of USB ports it seems though now a days so perhaps 6 onboard headers would be good. Obviously a micro-ATX isn't gonna match this build, but I don't want a 10' bohemoth either. |
Also, SLI on your TV won't give you a hell of a lot. You're already going to be running ridiculous framerates due to the "low" resolution.
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11) Any specific must-have features? Must be able to max out Ultra-Mode? Must have 6+GB of RAM? Must have an SSD? etc. Maxing out Ultra would be awesome as any system that can do that without frying can likely do anything else I need it to do like perhaps authoring BD video archives. I'm leaning towards SSD for the primary drive and whatever the best deal on high performance RAM is at the time. I hear 8-16Gb isn't all that pricey anymore and the more the merrier with the virtualization. OH YEAH, 6-8 core CPU would be super! |
If you're going to be doing video processing of any sort, I may bump the recommendation to an i7 2600K (which will become a recommendation for an i7 3770K at the end of the year).
It won't actually have 6-8 cores. But it hyperthreads, simulating 8 cores by keeping the instruction pipeline fuller. Going with a hex-core would mean stepping back to a 1366-based platform and they're effectively a dead-end.
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12) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to use? I've used ASUS, ASRock, Abit....I've never really had anything leave a bad taste in my mouth so far, but commonly features tend to aim towards specific boards. For compatibility, I'd like to go ahead and stick to an nVidia GPU. |
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13) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to avoid? Anything that's questionable quality wise and nothing 'off brand'. |
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14) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit? (Note: If your current OS came with your computer, odds are that it is NOT transferable.) Let me put it this way, I have a spreadsheet of license codes (I can legally retain/use) for the quarter Tb of software on my ISO drive. |
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Hopefully I didn't cause too much group *headdesk*, but like I stated we're in the preliminary stages as I haven't even started looking yet. Any informational updates like "DDR3 vs GDDR5" or "Crossfire vs SLI" would be very helpful. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Current HDD Configuration: HDD-0, Partition 0: 45Gb, 9Gb remaining C:\Program Files ~2Gb C:\Program Files (x86) ~3Gb C:\Windows ~28Gb (I'm not sure where System Restore hides files, so it may be bloated) C:\hiberfil.sys ~2.25Gb (likely non-essential on a Desktop that's never on w/ out being monitored, but still on Smart UPS) HDD-0, Partition 1: 67Gb, 10Gb remaining D:\Games\{Other} ~7Gb (a Favorite collection of Pre-XP titles that Win7 really doesn't like so I'll probably have to keep on the old build) D:\Games\Myst ~17Gb (I Really need to beat the damned series like I meant to when I bought the bloody thing. IE: may not goto new build) D:\Games\NCSoft ~19Gb (all three types of game installs including things like Mids, Titan, etc) D:\Program Files ~19Gb (need to pad by nearly double on a new system as I don't have my video editing software installed right now) HDD-1, Partition 0: 320Gb, 52Gb remaining (data drive w/ Win7 system backup) E:\pagefile ~4.5Gb (1.5x Physical RAM) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT: The more I look, the more I realize I'm going for broke! >.< Build Decisions: I'll try to keep this upto date, but feel free to comment as we go! ^.^ Case: Motherboard: CPU: Intel i5-2500K or Intel i7-2700K CPU Cooler: RAM: GPU: PSU: HDD-0: |
You may have noted an aborted attempt at doing a liquid-cooled system HOWTO from me. Part of the reason I didn't follow up (though I may with at least a breakdown of what went wrong) is that the case itself wasn't really designed for supporting a radiator system. On top of that the owner purchased one of the Socket 2011 boards with memory slots on the back side of the CPU as well as the front and got regular memory instead of the low-profile stuff.
This forced me into what I hatefully refer to as "ghetto mod mode".
I was able to get the system together but it was NOWHERE as pretty as what I'd wanted, and the owner wound up swapping the RAM for the low-profile stuff after delivery so he could mount the radiator in a non-ghetto manner.
If you're going to go with something like a self-contained liquid system, the Carbide 400R is a nice case and will fit numerous radiator kits (including all those currently offered by Corsair themselves).
Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-V LX
This is the "budget" version of the board. There are multiple "upscale" versions to pick from but sticking with budget for now.
This board will take current i7 and i5 class processors and is prepped for the new Ivy Bridge processors when they drop shortly.
CPU:
If you were buying now:
i7 2700K
If you were buying near the end of the year:
i7 3770K (No link yet)
RAM:
Budget: 8GB (2x4GB) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600
MoMoney: 16GB (2x8GB) Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600 Low Profile
I'm not a huge fan of heatsinks sticking up off my memory. And heat spreaders on RAM aren't really dissipating that much extra heat.
Went for the regular Vengeance stuff because that was the price point.
Went for the low-profile stuff at 16GB because it was the same price as the regular stuff.
GPU:
Current "Budget": EVGA 012-P3-2078-KR GeForce GTX 560 Ti - 448 Cores
Future "Budget": Look for the nVidia 6** class later down the road.
MoMoney: EVGA 02G-P4-2680-KR GeForce GTX 680
The 560 Ti-448 is essentially a 570 with some cores turned off (they didn't pass muster). I went after the version with a small factory overclock because the stock version was only $10 less.
The 680 is, currently, the most powerful card on the market, and should actually increase in capability slightly as the driver updates get it more dialed in.
PSU: Thermaltake SMART M Series SP-750M 750W
Both the video cards quoted here require a minimum of 550W and around 35-40W on the +12V rail. This card gives that and then some as headway. Since you don't want to be running it at or even near max throughput for extended periods. It also has 4 6-pin PCI-E connectors in case you later decide to go SLI (which you shouldn't need to).
HDD:
Note: Most of the manufacturers are putting out 2.5" drives, not 3.5".
And while the case supports 2.5", you were talking drive swapping for multi-boot (as opposed to Virtual machines).
I'd suggest something like this: ICY DOCK MB994SP-4S
SSD: Corsair Force GT
Secondary HDD or alternate to SSD: Western Digital 1GB Caviar Black
Altogether, for the budget-minded build you're looking at just under $1200.
Though, with most of the recommended components being similar, the "higher end" build comes in just under $1500.
Note: I'm building with what I consider a decent budget for a gaming system. Not a budget gaming system. I can actually cut the price down a few hundred bucks by dropping back to a regular 560 Ti, forgetting about the drive bay, going with a smaller hard drive and "settling" for an i5 2500K.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Do NOT go by 3dMark.|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
nVidia GPU Lineup:
I started looking into this, but man am I out of date on these things. To Many NUMBERS!!!!!! From the looks of it, the GTX 590 actually out performs the GTX 680 series. |
As a "numbers generator", it's the best there is at what it does.
But, like a certain Canadian, what it does isn't very nice.
3dMark numbers have about jack and **** to do with performance in most of your games (and ESPECIALLY OpenGL-based City of Heroes).
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Yes, it does. And this means nothing to a gamer. Ignore it.|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
Hmm, it looks like the CPUs list HD-Graphics for some reason. Does that mean there's a GPU builtin or something?
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I like Asus and Gigabyte. EVGA has an excellent reputation but I think they're noticeably more pricey. (Haven't looked at mobos lately.) I have used EVGA graphics cards. MSI always struck me as more of a 'low end' manufacturer. However, I have used an MSI mobo in an old system where the mobo died and liked it much more than I expected. I don't know squat about ASRock.
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Originally Posted by WanderingAries
I've had luck with this G.Skill brand so far and they're usually nicely priced and rated,
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| I'm guessing that the latter is some kind of more specialized set as the CAS are listed identically except for the last number. Any insight into what this is about? Am I looking at the right type of RAM for these conditions? |
1) Select your motherboard.
2) Select a RAM manufacturer.
3) Go to their site and use their online guides to tell you what RAM works in that motherboard.
4) Profit.
Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project
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I would hope that a 40" HDTV is 1080p! But it would depend on the exact model. Text should be clear at the screen's native resolution, which again depends on the model.|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Okay if you're playing on a TV of that size, you're playing at 1280x720 (720p IIRC) to get clear text. Basically any mid-to-upper range video card is going to deliver insane framerate even with nearly everything turned on/maxed out.
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@WanderingAries: Others have already posted a lot of the feedback you need. You seem to enjoy technology so I'll go a little more in-depth, but if you start getting bored, don't worry and don't feel bad, what I have to say isn't all that important.
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Originally Posted by WanderingAries
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The big difference between the i5-2500K and i7-2700K is price. The performance difference between them in the vast majority of tasks does not equal $120, except for a minority of people with particular needs; or people who like squeezing points out of benchmark scores.
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Originally Posted by WanderingAries
I'm guessing that the latter is some kind of more specialized set as the CAS are listed identically except for the last number. Any insight into what this is about? Am I looking at the right type of RAM for these conditions?
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Also, I will third the support for G.Skill.
The GTX 590 is a dual-GPU card, which depends on SLI. It has two graphics chips on a single board. While this can lead to improved performance in applications that play nice with SLI, some games don't (like CoH). It also scales better with higher-resolution displays, like 2560x1600, or multi-monitor setups. It also pulls up to 365 Watts by itself.
The GTX 680, by comparison, is a single-chip card that pulls, under full load, 195W. If you've got the money, it's the best single-GPU card available.
The GTX 560 Ti is the definitive mainstream card. (At least, until the 660 is released.) It hits the right price/performance ratio for most gamers. At 1920x1200 resolution it can average 30 FPS in Crysis with Enthusiast settings. If you want to look at other games or resolutions, here's Anandtech's benchmarks for the 560 Ti: Link. You could also look at other cards in the drop-down box at the top, and do side-by-side comparisons. Note that the GTX 560 Ti 448 Core isn't in this particular list, as it's a limited-run card. It's more like "crippled" GTX 570, except even with its legs broken it's fast.
Playing with monopoly money is fun, but to really know what all can go together would take a realistic budget ceiling. You can't just downgrade one item to fix the budget unless you're only off by a little. But that's probably not going to happen if you're looking at an i7 and a GTX 680.
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Fixed!|
Originally Posted by Hyperstrike
Okay first suggestion, pull the CODE tags off. Makes it easier to read. They're only on in my guide to make copying the text easier.
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| Okay if you're playing on a TV of that size, you're playing at 1280x720 (720p IIRC) to get clear text. Basically any mid-to-upper range video card is going to deliver insane framerate even with nearly everything turned on/maxed out. |
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| Sorry if I sound like I'm busting your balls here. But this is NOT a helpful answer. Nebulous answers like "as much as possible" "as little as possible" or "pretend I'm broke" don't help anything. I can point you at a $500 Dell system and call it a day. But if you're really looking for specific things in a different price range that provides you with zero help. |
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Okay, current "best bang for the buck" is the i2500K. HOWEVER, Intel's Ivy Bridge just hit the street (and should be trickling in to retailers now). The new i5 3750K looks to be in roughly the same league with a slight IPC advantage in certain apps and a similar price point. |
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| You may still want to take a stab at the K-class processors anyhow. The price difference is a WHOPPING $10 in most cases. For a chip that can easily accomplish light overclocking without exotic cooling? That's pretty much no-brainer territory. |
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| i5 2500K and a Sandy Bridge Z68 motherboard. If you're buying around year's end, basically replace with an equivallent i5 3750K and a Z77 board. |
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Also, the mid-range nVidia 6** series should be out by then too. Going to recommend you a 560 Ti for right now. |
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| 10) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc. |
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| If you're going to be doing video processing of any sort, I may bump the recommendation to an i7 2600K (which will become a recommendation for an i7 3770K at the end of the year). |
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| It won't actually have 6-8 cores. But it hyperthreads, simulating 8 cores by keeping the instruction pipeline fuller. Going with a hex-core would mean stepping back to a 1366-based platform and they're effectively a dead-end. |
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So no concrete power supplies? DARN!
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Case: Corsair Carbide 400R You may have noted an aborted attempt at doing a liquid-cooled system HOWTO from me. |
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Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-V LX This is the "budget" version of the board. There are multiple "upscale" versions to pick from but sticking with budget for now. This board will take current i7 and i5 class processors and is prepped for the new Ivy Bridge processors when they drop shortly. |
I'm going to go ahead and update the Main post NOW (to post around 01:20a EST) and let everyone catchup.
*Gathers thoughts*
newchemicals, I just wanted to say that this was a great starting point.
Ironblade, Thanks for bringing things a little more down to earth.
ScottyB, Lots of info that I actually understood for the most part and you still have me on the fence with the i5 VS i7 tradeoff.
Gaia, If you're curious, said spreadsheet has listings from DOS6.0, Win95, Vista, all the way through Win7 (I haven't updated it for my Win8 ISO).
Hyperstrike, Yeah, it dawned on me What the chart was comparing afterwards. I definitely appreciate your breakdown, time, and temperment. ;-)
Some of you may have missed the string of posts/replies, but I'll try to reitterate a few things and add/revise a few questions.
So far I've based it round the i5/i7 chipset(s) and the 500 series GPU. I'm still a little fuzzy as to whether both CPUs have virtualization (VT-X?) builtin. Are they Z68 or Z77 based chipsets? Does that mean my list of Motherboards is still valid?
It seems like I should be perfectly fine with the 560 so long as I get the Ti version or find money growing out my butt in which the 680 would work twice as good for...a ratio'd amount. It says this card is PCI-Express 2.0, would a 3.0 card be better?
I seem to be misunderstanding the right RAM to get. Is it 1066, 1333, or 1600 I should be getting? All of the configurations so far point to Dual Channel so 2x8=16Gb looks to be my number atleast. Even the 1600 G.Skill seem to be the best savings, but I noticed something about Intel XMP 1.3 listed in Hyperstrike's writeup. All things considered, will I need to consider this as it would change my RAM choice?
That IcyDock thing wasn't what I thought it was going to be (external SATA hub). I'm actually glad as I have a stack of laptop HDDs currently used for various types of media archives until I can get a large drive to replace them. A device such as this would allow for me to put off getting a larger drive and keep from having to constantly pull them out of a drawer as needed. My Apple G4 actually houses the primary archive backup drives (twin 500Gb IDEs), but USB 2.0 speeds on a 1Ghz CPU/1Gb RAM system are killer for major data migrations.
SSD is obviously the way to go on the primary drive and it seems that 120Gb-180Gb should work. Is there a major advantage of Hyperstrike's suggestion over the ones I listed? I did notice that it lists the R/W speeds as both being at or above 500Mb/s which is better than most on the list, but is that worth any increase in price above that of the others?
I see no reason to alter Hyperstrike's PSU suggestion, but I haven't heard other opinions on it as of yet. I figured that the recomendations would be in the 750Watt range considering what is being discussed.
What I haven't heard about is suggestions on the CPU/GPU cooling. Well, besides Hyperstrike's example from his thread, but still, do I need more than factory or what comes with a good case? I'll have to get back with you guys on best installation methods once the build is solidified.
I'm starting to look at towers now and considering what I Won't be putting into the build I'm wondering if maybe I don't need a full sized ATX case, but perhaps a mid-tower instead. I even saw one with wheels on the bottom and another that resembles my PS2. Call me silly, but I do want it to look nice too. I noticed alot of LED stuff now a days and while I don't want it "in yo face", I'd rather it blue to go with my solid black metal preference. I obviously want breathing room and good ventilation, but this thing will likely be spending much of its life either directly or nearly in direct contact with a carpet'd floor.
*goes to look at cases*
And here's the short list of Towers:
Cooler Master Trooper (I keep wanting to call it Storm Trooper)
Thermaltake MK-1
Thermaltake Revo
All are a little bit more than the suggested one, but I seem to like them better.
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Yes you CAN play at 1920x1080. But the text in the chatboxes is going to be blurry.|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
Actually, when I was testing out my TV via the laptop/HDMI I left it set at 1920x1080p, but adjusted the game UI so that things were a little larger. Even if I went to a normal LED monitor, I'd likely not go much higher honestly.
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I've got a 50" that does 1920x1080 but if I want to NOT strain my eyes, I play at 1280x720.
Remember, this is a "TV". Even with higher resolution, at that size, the pixels are coarser than you would find in a monitor-class screen.
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| That seems to be the consensus, but what exactly is IPC? |
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| I meant to ask, what's the dif between the K-class and non? |
2 things determine a CPU's clock speed.
Bus speed and multiplier.
Most CPUs from Intel are multiplier-locked. This means that any overclocking is achieved by bumping up the bus speed. However, this affects other components besides just the CPU. And, because the bus is set in higher increments than the multiplier, there's not a lot of fine control. Also, as faster bus speeds come online, bus overclocking becomes less and less viable as even "small" increments in bus speed result in huge, possibly unsustainable overclocks.
Think of it as using one of those huge 3-foot red pipe wrenches to try to tighten tiny nuts.
The K processors are multiplier-unlocked. So instead of simply having a single, avenue to overclocking (that's becoming less viable all the time), it has a second value that can be modified, in much finer increments that don't directly affect other components.
So if you have an i5 2500K chip. You figure 100Mhz (with a multiple data rate) bus x a multiplier of 34 (3.4Ghz base speed with the ability to burst to 3.8Ghz)
Now, fiddling with the bus and bumping to, say 125Mhz would result in a mult-34 chip going from 3.4 Ghz to 4.25Ghz. Possible. Probable. Maybe even sustainable. But how are your other components (RAM, video card, drive controllers) going to handle the FSB?
Now, with a K chip you can bump the multiplier. To say 35.
This results in a 3.5Ghz chip.
Bumping to 42 would result in a 4.2Ghz chip. Again, possible and probably sustainable. And this time, you're NOT having to overclock all your other components to achieve it.
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| Um, shouldn't I look at Z77 boards, not Z68s? |
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| Would there be a noticible dif in the 6 series or do you think that I'm over thinking the build and the 560 Ti is going to cover things? |
The 680 would likely allow you to crank them to max.
With the upcoming mainstream release of FXAA (basically shader-based antialiasing), you can actually leave off (or turn down) regular AA methods and crank up FXAA and see identical quality (and a performance boost).
Using hacks in previous drivers to turn it on, I was able to turn off regular AA and turn up FXAA on my 560. Image quality was unaffected and I saw a framerate increase (even at 1920x1080). However, because it WAS a hack, it wasn't a stable change to my drivers at the time and I'd eventually get weird artifacting. This should change once FXAA hits mainstream in the 300-series drivers.
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| The more I read/think about the build, the less I think I need it to do now. I had all sorts of 'options' running through my head (HotSwap vs Virtualization) and I'm thinking that the HotSwap is really overkill. I've never used a RAID configuration and I'm not sure that I'll really do anything non-recoverable enough to put that on the table. Firewire, dont' have anything that uses it. Crossfire/SLI, it hasn't really been explained to me, but from what I 'think' it is I have no use for it either in this build. I don't have anything that uses SS USB yet, but it doesn't hurt to have a mix for now. SATA 6Gb/s, that I think I will go for as it would relate to the SSD choice for a performance assist. |
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| Now see, this is what I was thinking too. *looks again* No wait, what about the 2700k? NM, I'm thinking at this point of just staying at the 2700K as worst case it'll be cheaper when the new stuff comes out. |
Were I you, especially if you're buying in a September-January time frame, look at the Ivy Bridge replacements and go for the 3770K (which is the replacement for the 2600K and is, clock-speed-wise, identical to the 2700K.
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| I figured the PSU would need to wait until AFTER we figure out the power requirements. :-p |
Even knowing the minimum power requirements for your system (and the fact that Ivy Bridge should be more power efficient with the die-shrink (they're using a smaller manufacturing process now)), I still prefer to build some overhead into your PSU. This leads to less stress on the component and an ostensibly longer lifespan.
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| I wondered why you stopped or atleast why it went quiet. I'm kinda iffy on the case design, but nice price. I looked at this page and my brain went mush with all the weirdness. |
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Both the i5 and i7 class chips support VT-X (Virtualization acceleration).|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
So far I've based it round the i5/i7 chipset(s) and the 500 series GPU. I'm still a little fuzzy as to whether both CPUs have virtualization (VT-X?) builtin. Are they Z68 or Z77 based chipsets? Does that mean my list of Motherboards is still valid?
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| It seems like I should be perfectly fine with the 560 so long as I get the Ti version or find money growing out my butt in which the 680 would work twice as good for...a ratio'd amount. It says this card is PCI-Express 2.0, would a 3.0 card be better? |
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| I seem to be misunderstanding the right RAM to get. Is it 1066, 1333, or 1600 I should be getting? All of the configurations so far point to Dual Channel so 2x8=16Gb looks to be my number atleast. Even the 1600 G.Skill seem to be the best savings, but I noticed something about Intel XMP 1.3 listed in Hyperstrike's writeup. All things considered, will I need to consider this as it would change my RAM choice? |
With the price difference between good 1333 and good 1600 being negligible, going with the slightly higher-spec memory is kinda a no-brainer.
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| That IcyDock thing wasn't what I thought it was going to be (external SATA hub). I'm actually glad as I have a stack of laptop HDDs currently used for various types of media archives until I can get a large drive to replace them. A device such as this would allow for me to put off getting a larger drive and keep from having to constantly pull them out of a drawer as needed. My Apple G4 actually houses the primary archive backup drives (twin 500Gb IDEs), but USB 2.0 speeds on a 1Ghz CPU/1Gb RAM system are killer for major data migrations. |
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| SSD is obviously the way to go on the primary drive and it seems that 120Gb-180Gb should work. Is there a major advantage of Hyperstrike's suggestion over the ones I listed? I did notice that it lists the R/W speeds as both being at or above 500Mb/s which is better than most on the list, but is that worth any increase in price above that of the others? |
OCZ drives are nice and all. I own two of them myself and don't have problems.
But they have a reputation for being sorta hit-or-miss flaky.
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| What I haven't heard about is suggestions on the CPU/GPU cooling. Well, besides Hyperstrike's example from his thread, but still, do I need more than factory or what comes with a good case? I'll have to get back with you guys on best installation methods once the build is solidified. |
If you're not going to be overclocking, just about anything Socket 1155 compatible should be fine.
If you're looking at self-contained liquid cooling, I recommend the H80 or H100 from Corsair. BUT DO RESEARCH AND MAKE SURE YOUR CASE CAN MOUNT IT!
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| I'm starting to look at towers now and considering what I Won't be putting into the build I'm wondering if maybe I don't need a full sized ATX case, but perhaps a mid-tower instead. I even saw one with wheels on the bottom and another that resembles my PS2. Call me silly, but I do want it to look nice too. I noticed alot of LED stuff now a days and while I don't want it "in yo face", I'd rather it blue to go with my solid black metal preference. I obviously want breathing room and good ventilation, but this thing will likely be spending much of its life either directly or nearly in direct contact with a carpet'd floor. |
As to LED fans and stuff. I normally yank that crap out and replace it with regular non-LED fans. I'm just not a fan (heh heh) of "t3h b1ing".
Honestly though. Give the Carbide 400R a good look again. It's a nice, understated case. And it pretty much can take anything you could throw in it. Or possibly the black version of its big brother. The 500.
ADDENDUM
As to "IDE". No.
Any hard drive you buy nowadays is going to be SATA. Most of these boards don't even HAVE a legacy IDE port.
And SATA optical drives are both plentiful and available in all sorts of price ranges.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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COOLER MASTER CM Storm Series Trooper (SGC-5000-KKN1) Black Steel / Plastic ATX Full Tower Computer Case|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
Cooler Master Trooper (I keep wanting to call it Storm Trooper)
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Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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VT-x is a CPU feature. ark.intel.com confirms the i5-2500K supports VT-x. Link. (It's at the bottom under "Advanced Technologies".)|
Originally Posted by WanderingAries
I'm still a little fuzzy as to whether both CPUs have virtualization (VT-X?) builtin.
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You might notice there's also something called VT-d. Neither the 2500K nor the 2700K seem to have VT-d enabled, as this is more common on server chips (Xeons) and non-K chips (Intel's probably being conservative regarding stability), for virtualization servers to allow guests direct access to certain hardware peripherals. Since you're not building a server to allow others to remote in and work off your PC, I don't think this is all that important to you.
Obligatory Template: Fixed ;-)
1) What will you primarily be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Let's start with what will handle CoX in Ultra mode on the prettiest/best case senario and go from there. Testing out Beta OS' (most recently, Win 8), software, etc and being able to comfortably handle x64 virtualization at the hardware level would be awesome (even if I'm still new to VHDs). I'll likely be looking into a wireless setup (mouse, kb, wifi card) so I can get off the floor and back onto my comfy bed. Output to my 40" HDTV via HDMI would be AWESOME as my Apple G4's occupying the D-SUB already.
2) What's your budget? (Real Dollars) Are tax and shipping included? This is important as it allows people trying to help you to suggest things appropriate to your budget.
Looking at suggestions so far, I'll probably have to scrounge up between $1.2k-$1.5k for a prefered build.
5) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need. If you're unsure what exactly you need, say so.
*clears throat* Bring E-VERY-ONE!
7) Will you be overclocking?
While I understand the urge to do so, I've never really had the desire to personally as you've got to be very careful as you could ruin more than just your warranty sometimes.
8) What size monitor do you have and/or plan to have?
ATM, I really don't have anything that I'll be keeping except for the afore mentioned HDTV.
9) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
If I'm lucky or (better chance) the GPU in my backup laptop finally dies, then Maybe by year's end.
10) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? etc.
I'd like to go as far into future proofing as possible so things like USB 3.0 ports, 6Gb SATA. I don't use anything that needs firewire and not quite comfortable with RAID yet (haven't made it to that chapter on the bookshelf yet), but I do understand that many boards come with these anyway. I was curious about SLI, but not sure I want to go so far as dealing with a dual/triple GPU system. Especially since that basically supersizes the budget. I'm always in need of USB ports it seems though now a days so perhaps 6 onboard headers would be good. Obviously a micro-ATX isn't gonna match this build, but I don't want a 10' bohemoth either.
11) Any specific must-have features? Must be able to max out Ultra-Mode? Must have 6+GB of RAM? Must have an SSD? etc.
Maxing out Ultra would be awesome as any system that can do that without frying can likely do anything else I need it to do like perhaps authoring BD video archives. Uh, SSD in the 120Gb-180Gb range. I hear 16Gb isn't all that pricey anymore and the more the merrier with the virtualization.
12) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to use?
I've used ASUS, ASRock, Abit....I've never really had anything leave a bad taste in my mouth so far, but commonly features tend to aim towards specific boards. For compatibility, I'd like to go ahead and stick to an nVidia GPU.
13) Are there any vendors/brands you'd specifically prefer to avoid?
Anything that's questionable quality wise and nothing 'off brand'.
14) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit? (Note: If your current OS came with your computer, odds are that it is NOT transferable.)
Let me put it this way, I have a spreadsheet of license codes (I can legally retain/use) for the quarter Tb of software on my ISO drive.
Hopefully I didn't cause too much group *headdesk*, but like I stated we're in the preliminary stages as I haven't even started looking yet. Any informational updates like "DDR3 vs GDDR5" or "Crossfire vs SLI" would be very helpful.
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Current HDD Configuration:
HDD-0, Partition 0: 45Gb, 9Gb remaining
C:\Program Files ~2Gb
C:\Program Files (x86) ~3Gb
C:\Windows ~28Gb (I'm not sure where System Restore hides files, so it may be bloated)
C:\hiberfil.sys ~2.25Gb (likely non-essential on a Desktop that's never on w/ out being monitored, but still on Smart UPS)
HDD-0, Partition 1: 67Gb, 10Gb remaining
D:\Games\{Other} ~7Gb (a Favorite collection of Pre-XP titles that Win7 really doesn't like so I'll probably have to keep on the old build)
D:\Games\Myst ~17Gb (I Really need to beat the damned series like I meant to when I bought the bloody thing. IE: may not goto new build)
D:\Games\NCSoft ~19Gb (all three types of game installs including things like Mids, Titan, etc)
D:\Program Files ~19Gb (need to pad by nearly double on a new system as I don't have my video editing software installed right now)
HDD-1, Partition 0: 320Gb, 52Gb remaining (data drive w/ Win7 system backup)
E:\pagefile ~4.5Gb (1.5x Physical RAM)
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EDIT: The more I look, the more I realize I'm going for broke! >.<
Important Note: Unless somebody has an ubber easy to understand method, I'm not looking at a liquid cooled configuration this time around.
Build Decisions: I'll try to keep this upto date, but feel free to comment as we go! ^.^
Case: Thermaltake Chaser MK-1 (Seems to cover everything with lots of options including LEDs OFF)
Extra Case Fans: 2-200mm ColorShift and 1-120mm Colorshift (I went with the same type as what comes with the case, but this config will max out the cooling!)
Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-Z77X-UD5H (looks to be the best of the options really when looking ahead)
CPU: Intel i7 3770K
CPU Cooler: Stock unless someone can come up with a good suggestion.
RAM: 16Gb of G.Skill (down the road, maxing at 32Gb)
GPU: GTX 680 (pending due to $$$)
PSU: 750W Thermaltake
HDD-0: Corsair 240Gb SSD ($199 after rebate!)
Optical Drive(s): BD-RE
Optional Devices:
Wireless Adaptors: Dual-Band Wifi (because I honestly don't like the whole dipole design of the wifi-version of the motherboard even if it's likely superior tech)
mSATA Cache Disk: Mushkin 60Gb (after everything else is paid for just to push my luck on maxing system performance)