Build Challenge 2 - Ice Control/Trick Arrow Controller
By
AFMadDog,
Posted on: 2012-03-21 15:46 in Build Workshop
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Actually, I think the most ridiculous 8-toon teams are the MM ones. Just saying. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
All ATs can 1 AT, do things in a way that makes other ATs not actually needed, useful? Useful to only a point? No point making things sound like the Controller AT is an odd exceptional case. Sure it's easier to get by, by being less refined in a 1AT team with certain ATs.
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That was poor wording on my part, a brute wouldn't be useless. No AT is truely useless (even stalkers now!) everyone has their place and everyone brings something to the table. What I meant to say is the brute isn't *needed* the original post I was replying too was suggesting that without someone to soak aggro/alpha's a team of controllers would end up getting squashed. At level 50 or level 5 that isn't so much the the case in this particular example, going from some direct experience on my part with all controller teams.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
All ATs can 1 AT, do things in a way that makes other ATs not actually needed, useful? Useful to only a point? No point making things sound like the Controller AT is an odd exceptional case. Sure it's easier to get by, by being less refined in a 1AT team with certain ATs.
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On a more related note I encourage Arbiter Hawk to select my build on the premise that it is better than the other builds as well as being one of the first posted in the thread. Also I like winning at things, and this post could go one of two ways. I also like gambling. On a more serious note, I'm 90% sure that my build is BEST BUILD! THB 2012! Wait, did I say serious? Well, I guess I'm only half joking, if I'm being honest with myself. I wish my nerdy inner-dialogue/monologue could win things on its own.
THB, taking a look at your build, it is pretty good, and if they were giving out bronze medals I would recommend you for it...
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lmfao
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Originally Posted by beelzy
thb, taking a look at your build, it is pretty good, and if they were giving out bronze medals i would recommend you for it...
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Isn't a bronze medal the best you can get when you play ice control?
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
THB, taking a look at your build, it is pretty good, and if they were giving out bronze medals I would recommend you for it...
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I expect Arbiter Hawk to take longer than Zwil did on getting back to this.. He's working on Hybrid, as well as I'm sure countless other things. He doesn't have Zwil's luxury of posting smiley faces and lolcats on the forums as a job. |
Originally Posted by slainsteel
April 23rd, so who won?
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(Ba-dum tsh, don't hurt me Zwil.)
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I think you just disqualified yourself...
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Isn't a bronze medal the best you can get when you play ice control?
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Nonsense. I believe that I've polished up a shiny enough bronze medal.
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Originally Posted by Beelzy
I think you just disqualified yourself...
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Isn't a bronze medal the best you can get when you play ice control?
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I would say silver. Ice Control on IOs is quite a bit different than without. Perhaps shockingly so if you haven't yet tried it with IOs, particularly on Dominators who don't have to rely on Containment.
I think a lot of people give up before they get there and I don't blame them. The 30s-40s on Ice Control are hell. Carnies will constantly detoggle you and drain your endurance, Malta are Malta, Council WarWolves touch Arctic Air and the fear sends them racing off, your endurance is constantly crashing, and you lack the defense to survive more than a few attacks. I really can't stress enough the massive issue with Arctic Air detoggling and the terror of its 15 second recharge, which is why most of my suggestions for changes to the set have called for this power to either be unsuppressable or for Jack Frost to gain a mezz protection power to cast at you sort of like Bots cast shields. I've also generally concentrated on making the knockdown in Ice Slick unresistable so that it would work even if a teammate uses cages.
However, while it takes a LOT of work to prop the set up, I also do generally feel that it improves more than other sets once you do it. Arctic Air's utility is mostly tied to your ability to survive at close range and your mezz protection (which if you go Psi APP is mostly a matter of recharge). I find that late in the game that ranged alpha-breakers begin to become less important and things start to come down to how spread out the enemies are. Some maps hide members of enemy groups around corners or behind walls or just generally stretch them out, and Ice Control is really good at dealing with this as long as it can survive initial attacks. It's also a set that requires some tactics (in particular casting Ice Slick around an obstacle at the edge of a spawn for really tough groups, so that the idiotic enemies all run toward it and pile up at its edge as hit the slow and collide with their allies who fell right in front of them). I'm not saying it can match the insanity of Plant Control but I do feel the set improves more than some other low-powered sets like, say, Trick Arrow.
Also note that IMO at least part of the reputation of Ice Control comes from players trying to skip Arctic Air and replace it with Shiver in order to play Ice at range (sometimes even skipping Glacier as well). Shiver is a power I rank somewhere around Earth's Quicksand. While I can understand why people do this after being murdered trying to use AA prior to mezz protection/defense, I also think at least some of the problem is people not playing to the set's strengths. The set is very melee-based (or at least "donut range" based as I play it) and trying to get away from this doesn't work well. just as it really wouldn't with Fire Control.
[EDIT: I should probably also add that Ice's main issue is that it doesn't have a good mezz tied into a single specific power. Most suggested fixes to Ice revolve around modest changes to it's sleep power or Shiver, but this isn't really what's wrong with it. Fire and Plant have some fairly weak powers as well. What they have and Ice generally doesn't is most of their strength wrapped in two or three powers. Ironically, those set's supposed lack of control flexibility is a huge part of what makes them so strong. A slightly tweaked Shiver or Flash Freeze would just mean my Ice Dom would be dropping pool powers needed for survival/recovery while a Plant or Fire could still pick up just a small number of powers and get the same level of performance. That's why I've always been fine with skippable powers; the number of skippable powers in a set is a good thing if the set is still competetive based on the powers you really need.]
I recently completed a build on my Ice/Fire Dominator that gives me perma-domination from levels 25 and up. That character is a bit of a monster. Probably not as good as Earth or Plant/Fire would be, but when I lead radio tip teams at 50+2 or even 50+4 he can easily be the first person into every spawn. It's sort of humorous to me to watch a group of Tankers and Brutes follow behind me into each spawn because I out survive them.
But most of these characters are a few levels lower than me and not IOed yet. Still I think that's a lot better than most people assume Ice would perform.
Here is my take on the build. Softcapped defense, nice recharge, very good control. My tricks are I always try to get a pet on a non melee type ie in this case the spider and slot it with BM. It is a cheap set, and hard to pass up almost 4% ranged and AOE defense on one power. Same with holds slotting Lockdown for the same reason range and AOE defense.
Went with Intuition it just makes sense it boosts my holds, slows, defense, and to hit debuffs, and increases my damage.
Ageless for the +end +rech and +recovery
Ion cause why not more chances for hold
Reactive cause more -res and now i can do some fire damage as well
And Cimerorans
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.956
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Contest Sub: Level 50 Magic Controller
Primary Power Set: Ice Control
Secondary Power Set: Trick Arrow
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Block of Ice -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-Acc/Rchg(3), Lock-Rchg/Hold(3), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(5), Lock-%Hold(7)
Level 1: Entangling Arrow -- P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(7), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(9)
Level 2: Frostbite -- P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(9), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(15)
Level 4: Glue Arrow -- P'ngTtl-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(A), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(11), ImpSwft-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(11)
Level 6: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 8: Arctic Air -- CoPers-Conf(A), CoPers-Conf/EndRdx(21), CoPers-Conf/Rchg(21), CoPers-Acc/Conf/Rchg(31), CoPers-Acc/Rchg(33), CoPers-Conf%(33)
Level 10: Flash Arrow -- SipInsght-ToHitDeb(A), SipInsght-Acc/ToHitDeb(15), SipInsght-Acc/Rchg(17), SipInsght-ToHitDeb/EndRdx/Rchg(17), SipInsght-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SipInsght-%ToHit(19)
Level 12: Hover -- Zephyr-Travel(A), Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(13), Zephyr-ResKB(13)
Level 14: Combat Jumping -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 16: Poison Gas Arrow -- FtnHyp-Sleep(A), FtnHyp-Sleep/EndRdx(40), FtnHyp-Sleep/Rchg(40), FtnHyp-Acc/Sleep/Rchg(40), FtnHyp-Acc/Rchg(42)
Level 18: Flash Freeze -- SWotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear(A), SWotController-Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/Rchg(34), SWotController-EndRdx/Rchg(37), SWotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx(39), SWotController-Acc/Conf/Hold/Immob/Sleep/Stun/Fear/EndRdx/Rchg(39), SWotController-Rchg/Dmg%(39)
Level 20: Acid Arrow -- HO:Lyso(A), HO:Lyso(33), HO:Lyso(34)
Level 22: Maneuvers -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(23), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(23)
Level 24: Tactics -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(25), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(25), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(27), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(31), GSFC-Build%(31)
Level 26: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GA-3defTpProc(27)
Level 28: Weave -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(29), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx(29)
Level 30: Glacier -- Lock-Acc/Hold(A), Lock-%Hold(34), Lock-Acc/Rchg(42), Lock-Rchg/Hold(43), Lock-EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43), Lock-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg/Hold(43)
Level 32: Disruption Arrow -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 35: Jack Frost -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Acc(36), BldM'dt-Dmg(36), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(36), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(37), C'Arms-+Def(Pets)(37)
Level 38: Oil Slick Arrow -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(A), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg(45), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx(46), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg(46), Det'tn-Dmg/Rng(46)
Level 41: Scorpion Shield -- LkGmblr-Rchg+(A), LkGmblr-Def(42)
Level 44: Poisonous Ray -- HO:Lyso(A), HO:Lyso(45), HO:Lyso(45)
Level 47: Summon Tarantula -- BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx(48), BldM'dt-Acc(48), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx(48), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(50), BldM'dt-Dmg(50)
Level 49: Fly -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(50)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- ULeap-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run
Level 4: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Health -- Numna-Regen/Rcvry+(A)
Level 4: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 50: Intuition Radial Paragon
Level 50: Ageless Core Epiphany
Level 50: Ion Radial Final Judgement
Level 50: Reactive Core Flawless Interface
Level 50: Cimeroran Core Superior Ally
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@Oedipus I don't doubt that the set can perform to a reasonable standard, because everything in the game can. COH is very balanced in that respect, I don't think that anything is ever truly terrible... It's just that some sets are so good/so much better than others in comparison and that's what leads to things like me calling sets like Ice Control "bronze medal" sets. I'm sure that a good player who's experienced with it can do great things with it, but c'mon. We have Illusion, Mind, Plant, etc.
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The problem is that you seem to have a determined set of criteria by which you judge a set, and that you are criticizing Ice/ for not meeting your criteria, or your playstyle. If you want to make the set be something that it is not it will fall short, but if you play to the sets strengths and protect against its weaknesses then any set can be a gold medal winner...|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
@Oedipus I don't doubt that the set can perform to a reasonable standard, because everything in the game can. COH is very balanced in that respect, I don't think that anything is ever truly terrible... It's just that some sets are so good/so much better than others in comparison and that's what leads to things like me calling sets like Ice Control "bronze medal" sets. I'm sure that a good player who's experienced with it can do great things with it, but c'mon. We have Illusion, Mind, Plant, etc.
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My build goes beyond gold, beyond platinum, what's beyond platinum? My build is Rhodium, which might not sound that cool, but Rhodium is the most expensive metal on the planet right now...
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
@Oedipus I don't doubt that the set can perform to a reasonable standard, because everything in the game can. COH is very balanced in that respect, I don't think that anything is ever truly terrible... It's just that some sets are so good/so much better than others in comparison and that's what leads to things like me calling sets like Ice Control "bronze medal" sets. I'm sure that a good player who's experienced with it can do great things with it, but c'mon. We have Illusion, Mind, Plant, etc.
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I also have those sets and I am saying is that with IOs, Ice is not as far behind as you think once it starts plugging holes. When other sets get IOs, they improve but gameplay doesn't radically change. Ice is more like "Where the hell did THAT come from?" I would definitely say my Ice Doms give my Mind a run for his money. AA is a freaking awesome control power with no real recharge once you tame it: it's built for steam rolling. Mind Control, not so much.
I wouldn't say no to unresistable knockdown in Ice Slick and alonger confuse in AA. Or Glacier with half its current recharge. But a lot of that has more to do with the journey to IO-hood and not the final destination.
EDIT: Specifically, what I disagree with is that anything given IOs improves the same amount. I don't really feel IOs significantly improve Sonic Resonance, for example. But Ice is in a weird position: it has a very good power that only unlocks its potential specifically after you add defense and reliable mezz protection. So, it's not quite the same as just throwing survivability at another character. The survivability compounds on itself and produces something a lot stronger than what you might initially expect.
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I'm only judging the set by the standards that other sets for the AT have set. Illusion solos GM's efficiently. Plant farms 54x8 competitively with high end melee sets. If the set can't compete at the high end of accomplishments and the efficiency with which they were achieved, it can't compete at the high end, period.. Which makes it at the best, a silver medal set, at least from my perspective. I personally find Ice to be low enough end that it can't compete with the majority of other sets...|
Originally Posted by Beelzy
The problem is that you seem to have a determined set of criteria by which you judge a set, and that you are criticizing Ice/ for not meeting your criteria, or your playstyle. If you want to make the set be something that it is not it will fall short, but if you play to the sets strengths and protect against its weaknesses then any set can be a gold medal winner...
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And yes, I know that the purpose of a control set is control, not damage or solo feats. The thing is that other control sets are not justifiably better or worsen than the high end sets at control; And the high end sets who can also perform the aforementioned ridiculous feats lead to the lowered status of the rest.
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And when a Perma-PA, Perma Heat Loss Phantom/Ice Troller jumps in, do you really think that your high end Ice Controller can compete? What results would you be paying for, and what feats could you match exactly?
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I also have those sets and I am saying is that with IOs, Ice is not as far behind as you think once it starts plugging holes. When other sets get IOs, they improve but gameplay doesn't radically change. Ice is more like "Where the hell did THAT come from?" I would definitely say my Ice Doms give my Mind a run for his money. AA is a freaking awesome control power with no real recharge once you tame it: it's built for steam rolling. Mind Control, not so much.
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What does perma heat loss have to do with ice control? I can make an ice/cold troller and have perma heat loss and have mass area control too.
I don't think I've heard of a ill/ff soloing a gm, or a plant/emp farming +4/8 efficiently. The fact that ill/xx can solo gms and plant/xxx can do this or that has less to do with the primary than the secondary. An elec/time troller can solo +4/8 ITF, I have a hunch that it's not all because of elec...
Not saying that ice couldn't use a little help but with IOs one can make a pretty impressive ice/xxx troller/dom.
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The point is that Illusion as a set adds much more offensively than Ice could hope to conjure whilst providing competitive if not outright superior control- Same could be said for Plant and Mind, being the top tier sets.
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Originally Posted by Nemu_
What does perma heat loss have to do with ice control? I can make an ice/cold troller and have perma heat loss and have mass area control too.
I don't think I've heard of a ill/ff soloing a gm, or a plant/emp farming +4/8 efficiently. The fact that ill/xx can solo gms and plant/xxx can do this or that has less to do with the primary than the secondary. An elec/time troller can solo +4/8 ITF, I have a hunch that it's not all because of elec... Not saying that ice couldn't use a little help but with IOs one can make a pretty impressive ice/xxx troller/dom. |
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What I am arguing is that not all sets within an AT ought to be judged in the same way. Ice Control offers much more soft control and mitigation than other control sets, making it one of the most team-friendly control sets in game.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
I'm only judging the set by the standards that other sets for the AT have set. Illusion solos GM's efficiently. Plant farms 54x8 competitively with high end melee sets. If the set can't compete at the high end of accomplishments and the efficiency with which they were achieved, it can't compete at the high end, period.. Which makes it at the best, a silver medal set, at least from my perspective. I personally find Ice to be low enough end that it can't compete with the majority of other sets...
And yes, I know that the purpose of a control set is control, not damage or solo feats. The thing is that other control sets are not justifiably better or worsen than the high end sets at control; And the high end sets who can also perform the aforementioned ridiculous feats lead to the lowered status of the rest. |
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Mind Controllers as top tier is not close to the mark, so it is not clear what you are talking about. On Dominators, maybe, but I still prefer my Ice Doms once both sets types get IOed. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
The point is that Illusion as a set adds much more offensively than Ice could hope to conjure whilst providing competitive if not outright superior control- Same could be said for Plant and Mind, being the top tier sets.
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Do you actually have an Ice Dominator from which you are drawing these conclusions or are you just arguing to argue? You are kind of all over the place and it's apparent, frankly, that you really aren't very familiar with the set, particularly in terms of its performance at the "top end" you keep bringing up in this and other threads (e.g. the Archery/Psi Blaster discussion).
EDIT: Just re-read that, sorry, it was ruder than I intended. I just mean, do you actually have an Ice Dominator with IOs and incarnate abilities to compare to a similar character with other sets? I have a Ice/Fire Dom, my little brother has a Earth/Fire Dominator with a nearly identical build (I built both characters). I've played both and both are very good. Definitely not as huge a gap as some people seem to think based on pre-IO performance. The main thing is just that the Ice character has more trouble at the start of the fight or against enemies with a lot of +ToHit, the Earth usually has more trouble if he finishes a fight quickly and runs off to the next before powers are recharged: no Arctic Air and no stacking with Contagious Confusion or Cognitive. Cognitive + AA is incidentally where a lot of my additional mitigation comes from, and that particular synergy is less than 8 months old, so I doubt if many players at all have tried it.
I also have to admit I don't know exactly what you mean by the farming like a Brute comment a few posts ago. I think Ice is probably better than Plant at that if what you are talking about is Fire farms. Earth might beat Ice. But I can definitely fire farm with my Ice/Fire at around 50+3 with bosses. Not as easily as a Brute due to modest HP and lower capped resists, but easily enough. If you're just talking about finding some map to run around against 50+4s that's unquestionably possible and I've done it many many many times on the Ice/Fire Dominator, again possible because AA has no recharge so it is always ready for the next group no matter how fast you go.
EDIT2: Of course I wrote all that, and then right after went into Dark Astoria and got my butt handed to me by the Knives of Vengeance. I have no idea how other Dominators do with that, but without a good hard mezz, forced to fight something that seemingly ignored -run speed, I was toast, even at +2 (to my +3). ut a lot of that comes down to the decision to increase the ToHit of mobs in incarnate content, which naturally effects Ice Control, because when its mitigation is entirely tied to being able to mimic a Scrapper.
Mind is one of the top tier single target control sets...what are you basing your conclusions on?
Currently Playing:
Rage King - SS/Regen Brute (50+3)
Soulfire Darkness - Dark/Fire Tank (50+2)
Deaths Final Embrace - Kat/Dark Brute (50+3)
ULTIMATE REGEN GUIDE I22
*angrish bump*
Goodbye. Not to the game, but the players. Goodbye. Everyone, remember to have fun. That's all I can say.
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Pfft. Mind Trollers are amazing. I know the Dominator counterpart might be more impressive, but it's still a ridiculously good set on Trollers.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Mind Controllers as top tier is not close to the mark, so it is not clear what you are talking about. On Dominators, maybe, but I still prefer my Ice Doms once both sets types get IOed.
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| Do you actually have an Ice Dominator from which you are drawing these conclusions or are you just arguing to argue? |
Plant does more damage than Ice, and so does Mind. Don't underestimate the power of Confusion. Ice really just isn't that good at anything. The entire Ice primary reminds me of secondary effects on a melee set combined with melee EPP's, except it's nothing BUT secondary effects and EPP's. Ice just isn't stand-outish whatsoever. It does nothing of real value. That's not to say that it can't be used verry effectively by anyone with a good build who knows what they're doing, but see my last post for elaboration on that.
Anyways.. All that being said. C'mon Arbiter Hawk, you can champ through this thread! I'll help you eliminate the crappy builds (I promise not to eliminate all of them on the premise of using Ice Control
) if you want!
Alpha's at that level aren't anywhere near the threat they are later and if you have something like a cold, ff, sonic, Rad, dark, kin, time, therm you already have massive levels of mitigation as well as heals, buffs, and debuffs. The AoE damage of 8 contained Immobs at that level (maybe 6 or 7 if you have an ill or mind) is enough to melt the mobs with their low HP. And would you believed contained ST attacks do as much as if not more than blaster attacks at that level.