possible bug with knockback enhances in levitate (mind and grav versions)
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-03-20 16:44 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
My guess?
Knock-back enhancers only affect knock-back, not true knock-up.
Knock-up is often just represented as low magnitude, below 1.0, knock-back. That kind is definitely enhanceable.
True knock-up works differently to allow more magnitude.
And yes, I think it is a bug that has been present with Levitate since....forever pretty much.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
My guess?
Knock-up is often just represented as low magnitude, below 1.0, knock-back. That kind is definitely enhanceable. . |
That's knock DOWN not Knock Up
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interesting, has there been any redname responses on this subject?
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
My guess?
Knock-back enhancers only affect knock-back, not true knock-up. And yes, I think it is a bug that has been present with Levitate since....forever pretty much. |
Kinetic Crash does increase Knockup as well as Knockback.
The Knockup in both Lift and Levitate is enhanceable.
I'd say the bug is in the detailed info screen. I haven't checked recently but I know I've slotted Lift for KB before and noticed a difference.
Mids not showing it is almost certainly a bug, and not too surprising considering how it handles enhancements.
hmm, well from what your saying it should be enhanced, idk if it is applying though, would a mag 34 knockup knock the baddies up higher? or just be able to pass through more protection?
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Knock-"down" is really just a low magnitude knock-"up".|
Originally Posted by Gaia
That's knock DOWN not Knock Up
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It's just like damage buffs and damage resistance just being positive or negative values of the same variable. Essentially, damage resistance is a negative damage buff, or however it is. They explained this was the issue with fixing HOs.
Given the above, maybe they broke the way enhancements affect Levitate when they fixed the way HOs work in the latest patch.
It makes sense.
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Both.|
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
would a mag 34 knockup knock the baddies up higher? or just be able to pass through more protection?
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Higher magnitude means "farther/higher"(depending on back/up directionality) and protection is always based on magnitude as well.
Though, knockback protection magnitude is usually 10 thousand, so you likely won't get through protection.
Thus, it is pretty much only there to increase the amount of time, a little, an enemy is knocked around and move them farther away.
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ah, and to correct you thats knockback resistance thats 10000%, knockback protection is usually only about 50-100 (50 for PTOD, 100 for some AVs base protection)|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Both.
Higher magnitude means "farther/higher"(depending on back/up directionality) and protection is always based on magnitude as well. Though, knockback protection magnitude is usually 10 thousand, so you likely won't get through protection. Thus, it is pretty much only there to increase the amount of time, a little, an enemy is knocked around and move them farther away. |
and against normal mobs that have no protection i have not noticed a difference in launch height between a mag 12 or supposed mag 34
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No, it isn't. They are totally different things. You might be thinking of how knockdown is low-magnitude knockBACK. You can quite easily see this by how knockdown powers do not list their effect as knockup in detailed info, and low-mag knockup powers like Air Superiority act differently (the double-flip) than knockdown powers.
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Knock-"down" is really just a low magnitude knock-"up".
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I mixed up the percent and the magnitude. |
Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
ah, and to correct you thats knockback resistance thats 10000%, knockback protection is usually only about 50-100 (50 for PTOD, 100 for some AVs base protection)
and against normal mobs that have no protection i have not noticed a difference in launch height between a mag 12 or supposed mag 34 |
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Look, there are 2 directions for knock, vertical and lateral.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
No, it isn't. They are totally different things. You might be thinking of how knockdown is low-magnitude knockBACK. You can quite easily see this by how knockdown powers do not list their effect as knockup in detailed info, and low-mag knockup powers like Air Superiority act differently (the double-flip) than knockdown powers.
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Lateral knock, knock-back, can be turned into knockdown by making its magnitude less than 1, so that it doesn't move them backwards at all.
Vertical knock, knock-up, will just toss them up in place to a certain height determined by the magnitude. Knock-down is only "down" in name; it is actually knock-up that isn't a huge magnitude, and may not be enhanceable to keep it logical.
Now, I could be mistaken and there could be knock-"down", but that would not be enhanceable with enhancements that only affect knock-"back/up".
That would explain the problem with Levitate, thus this thread.
Edit:
FYI, Levitate is meant to be knock-"up" because it tosses enemies into the air, instead of just "giving them a little push so they fall on their butts".
It's an incorrect classification if nothing else.
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Right, I haven't disputed any of that.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Look, there are 2 directions for knock, vertical and lateral.
Lateral knock, knock-back, can be turned into knockdown by making its magnitude less than 1, so that it doesn't move them backwards at all. |
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| Vertical knock, knock-up, will just toss them up in place to a certain height determined by the magnitude. Knock-down is only "down" in name; it is actually knock-up that isn't a huge magnitude, and may not be enhanceable to keep it logical. |
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Umm, so where do we disagree?|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
This is what I'm disputing. You can look at the power info for any knockdown power, and it will be listed as knockback, not knockup. Usually mag .67 knockback. These powers behave visibly differently than low-magnitude knockup powers, like Air Superiority. Edit: And if you slot a KD power with KB enhancers, it will pass the threshold where it stops being knockdown, and will actually knock enemies back, not up. This is trivially easy to verify in any number of ways.
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You just said "knock-down powers are actually low magnitude knock-back" which I actually said myself.
True "knock-down", though, is actually just low magnitude "knock-up", such as the power Air Superiority.
My point was that the power may say, in info, "knocks down the enemy", but it will actually never have "detailed info" that says "knock-down".
So any time a power is supposed to be affected by knock enhancements and is not, there is a bug.
In this case, the bug is with Mid's.
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You said, several times, that knockdown powers are actually knockUP. That is mechanically a completely distinct effect from knockBACK, not merely negative or low-mag knockback like your resist/damage analogy implied, and knockBACK enhancements have always, as far as I've been able to tell, affected knockUP effects as well, just as slow enhancements affect both -run and -fly. There are low (Foot Stomp) and high (Power Thrust) mag knockback powers, and low (Air Superiority) and high (Levitate) mag knockup powers, and each is a different kind of thing.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Umm, so where do we disagree?
You just said "knock-down powers are actually low magnitude knock-back" which I actually said myself. |
Low-mag KB (knockdown): Enemy falls over.
High-mag KB: Enemy goes flying away from you.
Low-mag KU: Enemy does the Air Sup double flip.
High-mag KU: Enemy is thrown upwards.
We do agree that it is a bug, though.
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This is what I said.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Knock-"down" is really just a low magnitude knock-"up".
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As in, "true" was implied.
The "knock-down" that is low magnitude "knock-back" is not "true knock-down". This is obvious when you hit a lower level enemy with one of these and they fly backwards instead of up then down into the same spot.
Do I REALLY have to spell it out for somebody to grasp the obvious "implied word"?
You are wrong. This is what we're trying to tell you. You don't understand the mechanics correctly.
There are two knock types in the game: Knockback and knockup.
If it's a low magnitude knockback, things just fall down instead. There is no mechanic called "knockdown", that is just a "colloquialism" (by the devs) to differentiate the visual difference between low-mag kb and high-mag kb.
The reason low-mag knockback powers change from making things fall down to making things fly back is because of the "purple patch", which increases the ...er, POWER... of our powers against lower level enemies (it will also decrease the power of our powers against higher level enemies; this can cause high-mag knockback powers to knock enemies down instead of back). You can also see this when using a low-mag knockback power (aka knockdown) against an even-level Clockwork: Clockwork have a NEGATIVE resistance to knockback, a vulnerability if you will, which causes knockback powers to be more effective against them.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Yes, that is the same sentence I first quoted and pointed out was incorrect.
I thought I was quite clear: knockdown powers are not knockup. These are specific terms with specific meanings, clearly denoted by their effects and labels in-game and in the City of Data links I have provided for examples. There is no power effect labeled "knockdown", I agree. But that's not because knockdown powers, or "true" knockdown powers (whatever that means?) are actually knockup; they verifiably aren't, they are low-mag knockback. Knockup isn't a synonym for knockback, or a subset of knockback, or a misnomer that some players use for certain kinds of knockback, it is a separate and distinct thing of its own, although it uses the same type of enhancements.
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/facepalm|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
You are wrong. This is what we're trying to tell you. You don't understand the mechanics correctly.
There are two knock types in the game: Knockback and knockup. |
DUH!!!!!!!
TRUE KNOCK-DOWN = KNOCK-UUUUUUUUUPPPPPPPPPP
knock-down = low magnitude knock-"up or back"
TRUE = implied originally
I
M
P
L
I
E
D
....not actually typed out.
Illiterate?
Never heard of the "you implied" in a statement like "Read up above." when directed at "YOU"? (or that very sentence where "Have you" is implied at the beginning)
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And yet, Air Superiority is "0.75 mag knockup".|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
I thought I was quite clear: knockdown powers are not knockup.
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True, TRUE, knock-down is a low magnitude knock-up because TRUE knock-down never changes to "knock-back" when attacking a lower level enemy.
Faux, FAUX, knock-down is low magnitude knock-back. It doesn't keep the target in place.
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Um... ok, then. If you want to define "true" knockdown that way, that's fine I guess, now that you've actually said what it is. I apologize for the misunderstanding, but you might see how saying "knockdown" without specifying you mean "true knockdown", and also without specifying that by "true knockdown" you mean "something other than what everyone else, and the game itself, calls knockdown" could be easily misread as the words you actually typed.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
True, TRUE, knock-down is a low magnitude knock-up because TRUE knock-down never changes to "knock-back" when attacking a lower level enemy.
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By the way, since I cannot recall ever seeing anyone use the phrase "true knockdown" at all, much less to mean what you describe, I'm not sure how you could reasonably expect anyone to know that you implied it.
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Unfortunately, implying that your statement is true won't necessarily make it true.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
This is what I said.
As in, "true" was implied. |
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
The "knock-down" that is low magnitude "knock-back" is not "true knock-down". This is obvious when you hit a lower level enemy with one of these and they fly backwards instead of up then down into the same spot.
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In this game, there are only two knock mechanisms. Whenever the game refers to knock-down, you are really looking at a low-level knock-back.
One knock mechanism is knock-back. For high magnitudes, this will send your foes flying away from you. With low-magnitude knock-back, your foe will not fly backwards very far, resulting in her effectively falling down where she stood. This is called knock-down. As you just stated, increasing the knock-back distance (by fighting lower-level foes, or by enhancing/buffing knock-back) reveals that the two are actually the same game mechanic.
The second knock mechanism in the game is knock-up. This is never knock-down, never knock-back, just knock-up. Increasing knock magnitude will allow you to overcome higher levels of protection in your foes, but will never turn this into an actual knock-back.
Both knock mechanisms are supposed to be enhanceable with knock-back enhancements, which might cause some confusion. But calling knock-down a weak form of knock-up is a bad idea because people will wonder how their "knock-up" suddenly got transformed into a knock-back with enhancements.
Conceptually, knock-down might be envisioned more like knock-up than knock-back. But that's not how it was implemented in this game. Closely watch the movement animations of a knocked enemy and you will notice that all the so-called "knock-down" powers really are knock-back, not knock-up.
10joy
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Your version of 'true knock-down' doesn't exist.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
True, TRUE, knock-down is a low magnitude knock-up because TRUE knock-down never changes to "knock-back" when attacking a lower level enemy.
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There is no version of knockback that doesn't change due to "purple patch" or enemy vulnerabilities/protections. There are two knock powers in the game: knockback and knockup. There is no such thing as this supposed "true knock-down" that you're talking about.
Air Superiority is a knock*UP* power. Not a knockback or knockdown power. Different mechanic.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Yes. Thus, Air Superiority is not a knock-down power but a knock-up power. (Watch closely what it does to your foes.) So?|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
And yet, Air Superiority is "0.75 mag knockup".
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
True, TRUE, knock-down is a low magnitude knock-up because TRUE knock-down never changes to "knock-back" when attacking a lower level enemy.
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10joy
Ah, ever ice slicked a Paragon clockwork? Instead of knock-down you get a knock-back.
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for my planned build i am using kinetic crash set in levitate for the set bonuses, the tooltip after the enhances are slotted shows that the knockup of the power is enhanced 173.9% (should make it mag 34 knockup) however when i look at the detailed info it shows that there was no enhancement to the knockup
im looking for verification to see which one is correct (the detailed info or the enhancement % tooltip)
in mids the enhancements dont increase the knockup but in the powers detailed info it doesnt say that the knockup is unaffected by enhances
just trying to figure out if something is bugged here or if something isnt labeled properly (or theres something i dont know about the knockup on these powers lol)