possible bug with knockback enhances in levitate (mind and grav versions)
By
Aggelakis,
Posted on: 2012-03-20 16:44 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
Quote:
What is the magnitude of knock-up on Air Superiority?|
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
Yes. Thus, Air Superiority is not a knock-down power but a knock-up power. (Watch closely what it does to your foes.) So?
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0.75
What is the magnitude of knock-back on Foot Stomp?
0.67
(FYI: I haven't verified this in game as of this moment. This is from memory so may be incorrect. The point was to cite an example of low magnitude knock-back that is called "knock-down".)
What do we call them both?
knock-down
The only difference is that one will always knock the target, no matter the level difference, the same way. The other will perform differently by knocking the target back instead of straight up and down.
Therefore, I did not change the definition of "knock-down". I am saying that they misuse the term "knock-down" for powers that actually use low magnitude "knock-BACK" which doesn't always perform the same as "true knock-down".
Quote:
I never have, but I do not like the prevalence of the developers using "low mag knock-back" instead of using "knock-up" for actual knock-down. It makes it difficult for melee characters or those who wish to keep enemies debuffed or flopping on the ice slick.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
Ah, ever ice slicked a Paragon clockwork? Instead of knock-down you get a knock-back.
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Check out Tornado ... making clear what you mean could and can be important. Use Kin Crash in Tornado and you will be enhancing TWO different effects, i.e. both Knockback and Knockup. It's also why the foes go sailing up and away (knockback + knockup) when hit by Tornado. If it didn't do both the direction those foes would be tossed about the room would be different.
http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/power...d=Pets_Tornado
Not sure but Tornado might be the only power to do both forms of Knock ... both down and up. (per City of Data Water Spout only does Knock Up, which having no experience with it I thought might also do both).
Doomguide
Edit: Which makes me wonder if there was a time (prior to development of Storm Summoning) when only one form of Knock existed and they created the third vector specifically to get the gfx effect of Tornado in the game.
It's not just a "prevalence", that's what knockdown is. Low-mag knockup isn't the same as low-mag knockdown, and I don't just mean how it behaves against lower-level foes. It is visibly not the same against even-con enemies. Knockdown makes enemies fall over; low-mag knockup makes them do that very distinctive Air Sup double flip that I've mentioned several times. And against sufficiently lower-level enemies, the Air Sup double flip turns into the KO Blow rise-and-fall anyway, which as any character with KU can attest, does not drop enemies back exactly where they started from. It's less annoying than knockback, true, but it would make very little sense for enemies to double-flip up then down when hit by most KD powers.
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Yes it is.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It's not just a "prevalence",
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They're calling a horizontal vector, "low mag knock-BACK", a vertical vector, "knock-down" as in up and down.
That's like somebody telling you "go South" and you going West simply because it is at the bottom of your compass so it "looks the same to you".
Not to mention, it is "just a prevalence" when the power suddenly performs COMPLETELY DIFFERENT when your target's level changes.
Normally, a "knock-down" power tosses your enemy right in the same exact spot, not pushing them backwards. If it starts "pushing them backwards" then it isn't "pushing them down" anymore and thus is "no longer knock-down".
Essentially, the "low mag knock-back" doesn't stay "knock-down" when it really needs to and we want it to stay knock-down.
That's a problem.
Quote:
We do? I'm sorry, I can't remember any text in the game that ever described a knock-up power as a "knock-down", including Air Superiority. While that power does eventually causes its target to fall to the ground, it always knocked them up first.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
What is the magnitude of knock-up on Air Superiority?
0.75 What is the magnitude of knock-back on Foot Stomp? 0.67 (FYI: I haven't verified this in game as of this moment. This is from memory so may be incorrect. The point was to cite an example of low magnitude knock-back that is called "knock-down".) What do we call them both? knock-down |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Therefore, I did not change the definition of "knock-down". I am saying that they misuse the term "knock-down" for powers that actually use low magnitude "knock-BACK" which doesn't always perform the same as "true knock-down".
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10joy
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Well that is an animation problem with knock-up then, likely just Air Superiority though since Levitate actually animates better.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
low-mag knockup makes them do that very distinctive Air Sup double flip that I've mentioned several times. And against sufficiently lower-level enemies, the Air Sup double flip turns into the KO Blow rise-and-fall anyway, which as any character with KU can attest, does not drop enemies back exactly where they started from. It's less annoying than knockback, true, but it would make very little sense for enemies to double-flip up then down when hit by most KD powers.
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It may also be an artifact of the messy physics this game has.
Also, what do you expect from knock-down? Do you expect the enemy legs to break so they can crumple down without their legs flipping out from under them and possibly going over their head?
I have slipped really good in real life before. I can tell you my legs and head changed places, literally. I practically flipped, but didn't go all the way over.
By the way, it only takes an enemy being one level below you, such as you being level 50 and them being level 49, for your "knock-down"(low mag knock-back) to send them backward as a greater than mag 1 knock-back.
They should lower the magnitude to something like 0.1 or change it to knock-up to stop the common "down becoming back" problem.
I think that's enough of this topic for me though. The original issue was solved.
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They don't. A vertical vector is "knock-up". "Knock-down" never referred to a vertical vector (except by mistake, like in some players' postings).|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
They're calling a horizontal vector, "low mag knock-BACK", a vertical vector, "knock-down" as in up and down.
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10joy
Quote:
You had to misread, didn't you?|
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
[color=lightblue]We do? I'm sorry, I can't remember any text in the game that ever described a knock-up power as a "knock-down"
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I meant "we call knock-back powers knock-down, simply because their magnitude is lower than 1, even though they are not even a vertical vector knock".
Do you call East and West vectors South simply because they are not North?
No, you wouldn't do that because they are not even on the same vector as South and North.
Knock-back is not knock-down, no matter how low the magnitude is and how it behaves against same or higher level enemies, simply because it doesn't STAY knock-down.
Quote:
So "down" is not vertical?|
Originally Posted by Tenjoy
They don't. A vertical vector is "knock-up". "Knock-down" never referred to a vertical vector (except by mistake, like in some players' postings).
10joy |
Do you not know which way is up?
horizontal = left and right
vertical = up and down
Edit:
I don't mean to be insulting, but you asked for that question.
I'm done with this thread. Anybody who wants to be stupid can be so.
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A "prevalence" would be if they usually do it that way, but sometimes do it the "right" way. That's not what we have, though. EVERY knockdown power is low-mag knockback. Implementing knockdown as knockback isn't just prevalent, it is universally what knockback is.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Yes it is.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
By the way, it only takes an enemy being one level below you, such as you being level 50 and them being level 49, for your "knock-down"(low mag knock-back) to send them backward as a greater than mag 1 knock-back.
They should lower the magnitude to something like 0.1 or change it to knock-up to stop the common "down becoming back" problem. |
Edit: Knockdown is not a directional vector at all, since they don't move. It's not on any axis. It's closest to a status effect.
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Look at every instance of "low magnitude knock-back" in Super Strength, Martial Arts, Kinetic Melee, Street Justice, etc....|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
A "prevalence" would be if they usually do it that way, but sometimes do it the "right" way.
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Look at every instance of "low magnitude knock-up" such as Air Superiority and "Psionic Tornado(I think this is low mag, I'll have to check).
Yes, they "sometimes get it right", but they mostly get it wrong.
In fact, I think the melee sets used to actually use knock-up for knock-down, until they instituted the "low magnitude knock-back" change with the addition of Kinetic Melee or proliferation of one of the melee sets even before that.
I'm pretty sure that "low magnitude knock-back" is a recent development.
Maybe there even used to be an actual "knock-down" that didn't work properly anymore so they changed most of the powers that used it and phased it out.
Anyway, why do I keep responding?
I have got to stop.
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Ummm, I think that is a flawed test simply because of the level shift. I don't think that works properly with knock-back to make it work as if you were like a plain level 50 against a level 49.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
It requires at least 2 levels difference, since level 50 enemies are knocked down, not back, by Foot Stomp and Whirling Smash and etc as used by my 50+1 characters.
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Also, the enemies I am talking about are those with no knock-back protection, especially minions one level below.
Last I checked, blue-con enemies(one level below) get launched back by a 0.67 magnitude knock-back.
And yes, "down" is a directional vector even if the ground below an enemy prevents them from actually moving "lower". It's not like the earth is flat without a core.
This is odd:
Quote:
Funny, it calls "knock-up" "knock-back".|
Fortunata Training - Psionic Tornado Ranged (Targeted AoE), Moderate DoT(Psionic), Foe Knockback Unleashes a whirlwind of Psionic energy on a target, tossing nearby foes into the air. The Psionic Tornado damages foes and Slows their attack speed. Damage: Moderate(DoT), Recharge: Slow Power Type:Click Target Type:Enemies Power Range:80.00 ft. Effect Area:AoE -- 20.00 ft. radius (12 targets max) Attack Types:AoE, psionic 5 Ticks of 11.31 psionic damage over 4.10s on target -30.00% strength to recharge for 10.00s on target Ignores buffs and enhancements 50.00chance for 1.40 magnitude knockup on target |
This is an example of what I was saying before, that the game calls "low magnitude knock-back" "knock-down":
Quote:
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Brute - Kinetic Melee - Burst PBAoE Melee, Moderate DMG(Smash/Energy), Knockdown By focusing your energy into the muscles in your arms, you can launch a dizzying flurry of attacks against every foe in melee range. Some foes may be hit hard enough to be knocked down as well. Damage: Moderate, Recharge: Slow Power Type:Click Target Type:Self Effect Area:AoE -- 8.00 ft. radius (10 targets max) Attack Types:melee, smashing, energy 31.28 smashing damage on target 20.85 energy damage on target 50.00chance for 0.67 magnitude knockback on target 5.00chance for 52.13 energy damage on target Only against minions and underlings +Grants power Power Siphon with Power Siphon active |
Edit:
Maybe it's a mistake, a typo, that they made when the descriptions don't match the detailed info, but the "low magnitude knock-back" being called "knock-down" is intentional.
I'm pretty sure the level shift works identically to a real level as far as the Purple Patch is concerned, which is what makes knocks increase in magnitude. I just unequipped my alpha, set difficulty to -1, and hopped in a mission, and some 49 minions were being knocked down, not back, by my Whirling Smash. This makes sense mathematically, since a 1-level difference will increase mag .67 to mag .74, and the threshold for knockdown is .75.
"Down" is obviously a directional vector, but my point is that despite the name, knockdown doesn't make enemies move down. They don't change position at all, they just go through an animation and are unable to use abilities.
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Yeah, Psinado is mislabeled for some reason.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
This is odd:
Funny, it calls "knock-up" "knock-back". This is an example of what I was saying before, that the game calls "low magnitude knock-back" "knock-down": So, the game does call "low magnitude knock-back" "knock-down". |
We aren't saying knockdown isn't low-mag knockback. In fact, that is specifically what we have been claiming it IS. You've been the one saying knockdown is actually knockup. Which, unless you redefine "knockdown" to something other than what everyone else and the in-game text has always meant by knockdown, is not true.
Edit: Knockdownupbackdownbackupupdown. Ugh, I do not want to see the word "knock" again for a month, lol. I'm gonna go sleep.
Quote:
Yup, the descriptions are notoriously misleading and sometimes down right incorrect.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
This is odd:
Funny, it calls "knock-up" "knock-back". This is an example of what I was saying before, that the game calls "low magnitude knock-back" "knock-down": So, the game does call "low magnitude knock-back" "knock-down". Edit: Maybe it's a mistake, a typo, that they made when the descriptions don't match the detailed info, but the "low magnitude knock-back" being called "knock-down" is intentional. |
Doomguide
Quote:
I was saying "knock-down should be low magnitude knock-up" and in some cases, like Psionic Tornado and Air Superiority, it is.|
Originally Posted by Hopeling
We aren't saying knockdown isn't low-mag knockback. In fact, that is specifically what we have been claiming it IS.
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I think they should stop calling powers, like Burst, "knock-down" when they are not so in every case. Actually, i want them changed to knock-up so my melee characters never have to worry about a melee power knocking an enemy out of range of melee powers, especially with AoEs.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I was saying "knock-down should be low magnitude knock-up" and in some cases, like Psionic Tornado and Air Superiority, it is.
I think they should stop calling powers, like Burst, "knock-down" when they are not so in every case. Actually, i want them changed to knock-up so my melee characters never have to worry about a melee power knocking an enemy out of range of melee powers, especially with AoEs. |
The reason low mag knockback is known as knockdown is simple
The knockback mechanic sends the target backwards a distance determined by the powers magnitude and at the end of that it falls down.
When the mag < 1.0 the distance that the target is knocked back is zero - this does not remove the final part of that mechanic and so the target still falls down.
Knockup is a different mechanic in that the target will always be knocked upwards irrespective of the direction it is hit - it is based upon knockback but because of that directional constraint it is given a different power name.
Because the name of the power is different anything that is set to enhance knockback will not enhance knockup unless it is explitely set to also enhance that.
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
T, shut up. You are starting to wear on my nerves with your constant "I'm right, you all are wrong" post bursts on every subject claiming to know more than everyone else.
Knockdown has ALWAYS been a low magnitude knockback. Knockup has ALWAYS been knockup. Knockup NEVER becomes knockback. Knockup NEVER becomes knockdown. It's worked like that since I started playing six months or so after the game first came out and I haven't seen any change in effects that powers that do knockback/knockdown and knockup.
You've lost this battle. Go off and continue your rants against e-mail support or pet AI and get your butt handed to you in those threads as well. In the years I've roamed on these boards I've never ignored a poster but you are rapidly becoming a prime candidate with your belligerent insistence that you know more than anyone else, that you're right and EVERYONE else is wrong.
This is the board where people come to help others who have problems playing the game. Your posts are the equivalent to giving out bad information, intentionally or not, on the ingame help channel.
If you can't help another player fix their problem, or confirm that others are experiencing as well, stop muddying the waters with your incorrect theories and general paranoid rants about the developers. YOU ARE NOT HELPING.
Yes, I'm feeding the troll. Yes I expect he will lash back at this and other posts of mine. I'm am just fed up of seeing multiple posts in a row from T contradicting posts of players who have been helping out here as well as Player Questions who have proven themselves to be valuable sources of knowledge.
Hey T, why don't you go to a doctor's waiting room and start diagnosing the people waiting to be looked at and go up to those who have already seen the doctor and tell them that their doctor is wrong and those prescriptions he put them on are bad, because you read it on the internet.
[/rant]
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I would just like to point out what seems to be the heart of the matter: Ignore the descriptions.
What the descriptions say doesn't matter. The descriptions are written by humans, who often get things wrong - even willfully continue to think the wrong thing, after a long discussion about how things are done (like this thread).
What matters is the mechanical part, not the description. That's what the game pays attention to.
The game doesn't care what the description says. The description could say "I'm a little teapot" and the game would still do whatever the mechanics say to do.
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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And that's correct. But you claimed that we also call Air Superiority a knock-down power. We don't. Being a low-mag knock-up power does not make it a knock-down power.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
I meant "we call knock-back powers knock-down, simply because their magnitude is lower than 1, even though they are not even a vertical vector knock".
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
So "down" is not vertical?
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10joy
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I'm surprised to see that you're a complete jerk.|
Originally Posted by Father Xmas
T, shut up. You are starting to wear on my nerves with your constant "I'm right, you all are wrong" post bursts on every subject claiming to know more than everyone else.
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I don't claim to know more than anyone else, and the reason I post so much is to offer ideas if I have any, or offer actual solutions I have used int he past to similar/same problems.
FYI, look at how many threads receive no posts from me. I don't post in most of them because I HAVE NO BLEEPING IDEA!
So, thanks for being a jerk.
Edit:
Oh yeah, look at my post count.
It's a lot lower than yours despite my obvious tendency to post multiple times in a single thread instead of doing my best to crunch them all into a single post.
Maybe you should look int he mirror, Mr. Knowitall.
Quote:
Yep, it just bugs me because I like things to make a little more sense.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I would just like to point out what seems to be the heart of the matter: Ignore the descriptions.
What the descriptions say doesn't matter. The descriptions are written by humans, who often get things wrong - even willfully continue to think the wrong thing, after a long discussion about how things are done (like this thread). What matters is the mechanical part, not the description. That's what the game pays attention to. The game doesn't care what the description says. The description could say "I'm a little teapot" and the game would still do whatever the mechanics say to do. |
Of course, it bugs me a lot less than it did before we had actual numbers visible. We used to only have the description, and an incorrect description was a huge problem then.
Edit:
Wiki still suffers from this. All the powers there use their flawed descriptions, no numbers in sight. People have to actually use links in game(except those don't always display correctly such as for every corruptor primary which is broken right now) or use Mid's and hope Mid's is accurate too.
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The wiki is for overview documentation, matching what the game description says (aka the human-error-prone), and in-depth documentation and numbers only when another Titan site doesn't do it better.|
Originally Posted by T_Immortalus
Wiki still suffers from this. All the powers there use their flawed descriptions, no numbers in sight. People have to actually use links in game(except those don't always display correctly such as for every corruptor primary which is broken right now) or use Mid's and hope Mid's is accurate too.
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For numbers, use City of Data. Its information is pulled directly from the files by somewhat-nefarious means, so it will always match the game data (typically within 1-3 patches). http://tomax.cohtitan.com/data/powers/
(We're hoping to link the wiki to City of Data eventually, but Titan Network needs more programmers to undertake the various projects we've got going.)
Paragon Wiki: http://www.paragonwiki.com
City Info Terminal: http://cit.cohtitan.com
Mids Hero Designer: http://www.cohplanner.com
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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"True knock-down" would never ever become "knock-back".
You know why this is so important?
Because melee characters hate knock-back.
If melee characters face enemies at -1x8, they have to chase them after they hit them with a power like Foot Stomp, simply because the low magnitude knock-back now is high enough magnitude to not behave like knock-down.
I have cursed that several times on my melee characters because I want every enemy, regardless of level, to stay exactly where they are in melee range.