Spoilers: So. What information is there on the Netherworld?
By
Acerbus_NA,
Posted on: 2012-03-13 21:15 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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There are many times I disagree with J_B. This isn't one of them. In fact, this is one of the things that irritated me enough to leave for a bit. |
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
You know, it made me mad when Posi said that about why so many story threads are abandoned. "Writers don't want to write someone else's ideas. They wan't to come up with their own."
You know, if you get hired to write Spider-Man and you don't want to write Spider-Man so you relegate him to a background character and make his book about the new "supporting cast" you introduce, you really shouldn't be writing Spider-Man at all. |
I understand and support giving new people the freedom to expand the world, possibly taking it in directions the "old guard" never thought of. They're going to see the game as it is *now,* with the storylines in it *now* and the technology that's in it *now* and take advantage of it. That should be encouraged.
However...
As much as I don't like it, I understand some things being abandoned. Avilians, for instance - the original idea for a "winged character" being an Epic AT - are left to a vague reference to hollowed out bones and a few people like me who remember them. They never *really* got a foot in, and tech moved past the need for them - and an Epic AT, as much fun as I think they'd be still, is a lot of work for something that can be done by pretty much anyone now with a costume piece. (Personally, I'd like a Portal mission or two where you find and learn about them... and why the race died off "in game." Just because.) It makes sense that they were abandoned.
Then there are items like the Blood of the Black Stream. They've had more work put in behind them - they're referred to IN the game, and in other promotional materials (the now-defunct, admittedly, CCG where a player character's bio was altered to fit it, the Eye of Horus in the oil spill in Oakes, the Gadzul Oil references.) So they can't be an Epic AT... I see it as a loss, but fine. Use the framework of the lore to expand the world further, take us beyond the Cities again, get Ouro involved again (going to ancient Egypt... which could lead to a little more Kheld content too,) etc. There's a lot of potential in there.
There's another tier of lore out there, too - going back to epics. The Coralax. This one fulfills *so* many wishes I don't understand it not being done. We've got a potential Epic AT, for those that want to focus specifically on Coralax lore (and potentially new variations and combinations of powers not available elsewhere - another "Free for VIP, for sale for everyone else" bit too, to help with the funding.) We have the Underwater zone(s) asked for for how long. We have lore tied in to both COH and COV, though heroside it's more of a guest appearance in the Hollows (why aren't they in IP, pestering Lusca, or Talos or FF?) And to cap it off, we have a goddess to face, or help (Merulina,) for the Incarnate angle when we're done with all the other stuff. This is "old lore" that should really be getting worked on and mined for all it's worth. It can be dealt with throughout multiple level ranges. It should, really, be an issue (even 1 1/2) in and of itself with everything that could be done with it.
Just because it's "old lore" doesn't mean it should be ignored or trashed.
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Considering that I have played many AE arcs that did build on established canon, introduced the writer's own ideas and made them fit rather than just throwing everything the author didn't like out the window, no, I don't think it's such a rare skill. If a bunch of amateurs can do it for their own amusement, people who are being paid to create a consistent game world have no excuse.|
Originally Posted by Johnny_Butane
I would KILL to write for CoH because I like the universe they've established. And I would love taking raw ideas and fleshing them out and giving them life, even when they're not my own, because to me THAT is the mark of a good writer. Anyone can make up their own stuff, but being able to build on an established foundation of canon and take something someone else started and run with it and make that work and be seamless is a skill far too few writers, let alone comic book writers, possess.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
There's another tier of lore out there, too - going back to epics. The Coralax. This one fulfills *so* many wishes I don't understand it not being done. We've got a potential Epic AT, for those that want to focus specifically on Coralax lore (and potentially new variations and combinations of powers not available elsewhere - another "Free for VIP, for sale for everyone else" bit too, to help with the funding.) We have the Underwater zone(s) asked for for how long. We have lore tied in to both COH and COV, though heroside it's more of a guest appearance in the Hollows (why aren't they in IP, pestering Lusca, or Talos or FF?) And to cap it off, we have a goddess to face, or help (Merulina,) for the Incarnate angle when we're done with all the other stuff. This is "old lore" that should really be getting worked on and mined for all it's worth. It can be dealt with throughout multiple level ranges. It should, really, be an issue (even 1 1/2) in and of itself with everything that could be done with it.
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Eva Destruction AR/Fire/Munitions Blaster
Darkfire Avenger DM/SD/Body Scrapper
Arc ID#161629 Freaks, Geeks, and Men in Black
Arc ID#431270 Until the End of the World
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Bah. Forgot all about him. |
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
They already dealt with the Coralax in Vincent Ross's arc. Merulina got killed off to serve the Puddle of Annoyance storyline, nothing else was explained and the whole thing was a colossal waste of an underused enemy group with a lot of potential. Much like the redshirting of the Knives of Artemis in Dark Astoria.
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... still think the rest needs doing.
The Knives have long since been redshirted by the simple fact that my playgroup routinely "defeats" the entire 100-strong membership of these super-elite high-tech Amazons in a single mission, sometimes a couple of times over.
My characters at Virtueverse
Faces of the City
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I should have specified it's a rare skill to find among professional writers. I agree, some of the people who are into things like writing fan fiction do a better job of checking their ego at the door.|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Considering that I have played many AE arcs that did build on established canon, introduced the writer's own ideas and made them fit rather than just throwing everything the author didn't like out the window, no, I don't think it's such a rare skill. If a bunch of amateurs can do it for their own amusement, people who are being paid to create a consistent game world have no excuse.
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It does kind of make sense why Amateurs are better than professionals in some ways with this kind of thing. Consider the following:|
Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Considering that I have played many AE arcs that did build on established canon, introduced the writer's own ideas and made them fit rather than just throwing everything the author didn't like out the window, no, I don't think it's such a rare skill. If a bunch of amateurs can do it for their own amusement, people who are being paid to create a consistent game world have no excuse.
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You want to write an AE arc about the Shining Stars post initial arcs. You have pretty much infinite time to do it as long as your subscription hasn't run out, have next to no overseeing aside from paragon wiki's lore stuff and AE's bizzare censorship. But most of all YOU'RE HAVING FUN doing it.
Now you are a developer: Positron says: "We need an arc about what happened to the Shining Stars, here are some guidelines you have to follow; include in-mission contact-type conversation tech, use a new map tileset, ignore the SSA since these are supposed to be before them. It needs to be done within a week so you can work on the story for the next Incarnate Trial."
And you're knee-deep in **** if you don't get it all done in time and as per the guidelines.
And thus, with these pressures, you're not enjoying yourself, you don't have the time you need to make sure everything's perfect as you'd like it to b- oh, wait, it can't be perfect as you'd like it, it has to meet Positron's standard of perfect. So in the end, you're not even writing your own story.
You tell me you'd care anymore.
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Originally Posted by Eva Destruction
Much like the redshirting of the Knives of Artemis in Dark Astoria.
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I know my vigilante character is ultimately plotting to bring them in as the redshirts of his spec ops organization.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Netherworld is the Dutch pavilion at Epcot.
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Yeah that is another major problem...when you actually put a finite number on an enemy group...especially in an MMO...it begins to look silly. |
Originally Posted by Megajoule
The Knives have long since been redshirted by the simple fact that my playgroup routinely "defeats" the entire 100-strong membership of these super-elite high-tech Amazons in a single mission, sometimes a couple of times over.
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It works for something like the Haven troopers (all female elite military unit) in Metal Gear Solid 4 because they're not too often encounter and when they are, they usually a force to be reckoned with, an obvious cut above the basic soldier.
In order for the KoA to be like they're background, they would have to be limited to elite boss status or above only, having a single operative brought in when Malta really needs stuff killed stone dead. They're suppose to be better than all but the mostly highly trained Malta agent (you know, Slinger or Gyrfalcon) at what they do.
I agree that I am disappointed that Positron basically told the writers to outright ignore pretty much everything that went before.
Heck who here remembers the massive trouble that was had with the Dr Khan Taskforce when it was first released on test. The Taskforce got picked apart (some would say quite visciously) by people who clearly knew the lore better than the guy writing the taskforce did.
It went through about 4 or 5 changes before it finally settled down on the one that went live (he included Arkarist as the Circle of Thorns archvillain in the final encounter...despite Arkarist always being on the side of the good guys was probably his biggest lore flutz). Stuff that wasn't even considered like how Requiem seemed to offer no challenge whatsoever to Reichsman taking control of the 5th Column got downright ignored and has only just been fixed with one of the missions in Dark Astoria.
Infact he never did anything else for the company and quietly just quit the team several months after, I'm guessing that the fairly brutal savaging his taskforce/strikeforce recieved actually led to that.
Not only that but I actually think that his experience probably led to Positron issuing the 'we don't give two figs about the lore that went previously' statement because of that incident.
Badge Earned: Wing Clipper
A real showstopper!
I've been writing draft after draft since I made this thread. The *SPOILER* part about what prometheus says about people becoming a well themself and creating their own dimensions was the key.
Basically. What I'm going to do is scrap the idea my character draws their power from the Netherworld. He draws it from the Well in his own dimension... The reason it manifests as dark powers is a bit of creative thinking, idea stealing, and mushing two things together.
In Champions. There is a being called the Quemetiel. The Crowd of Gods. It is a supernatural black hole at the very end of the Qilphothic realm. It is a mass of dead Gods that sucks everything down its gullet to oblivion.
This being doesn't exist in City of Heroes. I'm not even sure the Qilphothic Realm exists in CoX. What to do... The Well was the way to get around it.
I decided that there had a been a dimension/universe created by a being that became a Well. But over the eons, this Well... Went batcrap crazy. It started sucking in its creation. Even destroying other "Gods" that had been born. Mostly Incarnates in that universe and super beings.
It became a supernatural black hole, slowly drawing everything into itself. Uncreating everything. Except for one solitary planet.
This planet was home to powerful sorcerers. They had figured a way(haven't hashed that out yet) to keep their world right on the edge of the event horizon. But over thousands of years, the world has become featureless, no color, no sound.. Even the sorcerers, whom were winged avian like creatures, (See Ravens of Dispersion) had to shed their physical bodies and become spiritual entities.
My character has escaped into the Primal Earth dimension. Intent on becoming an Incarnate itself, and then, becoming a Well itself so it can go home and destroy the other Well and save its people.
What are the Ravens of Dispersion you ask? In Champions, the Ravens are a race of entities where their tiny little world is right on the cusp of Quemetiel. They do horrible things to keep their world from sliding down its gullet. The ravens in Champions appear as skeletal humanoid avians with bird heads and decaying feathers on their bony wings. That's where I get the idea for MY ravens of dispersion.
Now. I see some flaws and things that need to be ironed out.. But I'm rather proud of taking lore from one game and mutating it so that it fits right into the lore of another game. Which I think a lot of comic book writers actually do anyhow!
Opinions? I like it, so be gentle. I've a fragile ego.
I bet I could make an AE arc on all of this... Hrm.
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YES TO EVERYTHING. you put words to thoughts i didnt know how to say, and lots of peeps i play with agree. we will re-run certain arcs and missions just because that old lore is so much more interesting, especially for some of our own characters. im glad they used scirocco and ice mistral in the new DA arcs, and i hope one or both of them start to 'see the light' and incorporate the other characters toed together with the "Monks of the Order of the Four Winds". another great lore potential to expand. heck i'll write it for them if no other writers want to, and prefer to only "write their own, new stuff." ugh.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
There are many times I disagree with J_B. This isn't one of them. In fact, this is one of the things that irritated me enough to leave for a bit.
I understand and support giving new people the freedom to expand the world, possibly taking it in directions the "old guard" never thought of. They're going to see the game as it is *now,* with the storylines in it *now* and the technology that's in it *now* and take advantage of it. That should be encouraged. However... As much as I don't like it, I understand some things being abandoned. Avilians, for instance - the original idea for a "winged character" being an Epic AT - are left to a vague reference to hollowed out bones and a few people like me who remember them. They never *really* got a foot in, and tech moved past the need for them - and an Epic AT, as much fun as I think they'd be still, is a lot of work for something that can be done by pretty much anyone now with a costume piece. (Personally, I'd like a Portal mission or two where you find and learn about them... and why the race died off "in game." Just because.) It makes sense that they were abandoned. Then there are items like the Blood of the Black Stream. They've had more work put in behind them - they're referred to IN the game, and in other promotional materials (the now-defunct, admittedly, CCG where a player character's bio was altered to fit it, the Eye of Horus in the oil spill in Oakes, the Gadzul Oil references.) So they can't be an Epic AT... I see it as a loss, but fine. Use the framework of the lore to expand the world further, take us beyond the Cities again, get Ouro involved again (going to ancient Egypt... which could lead to a little more Kheld content too,) etc. There's a lot of potential in there. There's another tier of lore out there, too - going back to epics. The Coralax. This one fulfills *so* many wishes I don't understand it not being done. We've got a potential Epic AT, for those that want to focus specifically on Coralax lore (and potentially new variations and combinations of powers not available elsewhere - another "Free for VIP, for sale for everyone else" bit too, to help with the funding.) We have the Underwater zone(s) asked for for how long. We have lore tied in to both COH and COV, though heroside it's more of a guest appearance in the Hollows (why aren't they in IP, pestering Lusca, or Talos or FF?) And to cap it off, we have a goddess to face, or help (Merulina,) for the Incarnate angle when we're done with all the other stuff. This is "old lore" that should really be getting worked on and mined for all it's worth. It can be dealt with throughout multiple level ranges. It should, really, be an issue (even 1 1/2) in and of itself with everything that could be done with it. Just because it's "old lore" doesn't mean it should be ignored or trashed. |
also, like someone mentioned merulina is 'dead' but if you read everything in detail, it lends that she is an extraterrestrial incarnate or even a well, and her power lives on, here on earth in the form of the leviathan and all the characters with leviathan mastery. and other signature characters have been 'dead'-ish and have popped back up. and i think it says she was *silenced* or some other way of saying 'dead' [maybe even with the word dead] but could still be used to mean something else.
that is really the largest amount of potential that they have yet to taker advantage of.
Aquatics as a purchaseable Epic AT would still be amazeballs. old lore has so much potential.
:EDIT: "She was overcome by a mysterious shadowy figure, and died." ok so maybe she IS dead-dead. but there are ghosts and echoes all over the place. also... who was that shadowy figure?
i bet merulina looked awesome. also, since her "divine essence" was infused into all the coralax, it could be quite reasonable for he to be reincarnated in a young coralax or virtea[the humanoid-fish race of CoH Lore] something
oh yeah... um.... netherworld!!!
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Actually, he's a very simple way they could have fixed the KoA's whole numbers issue: have their defeat animation involve a very obvious "teleport away" effect like Maelstrom.|
Originally Posted by Dr_MechanoEU
Yeah that is another major problem...when you actually put a finite number on an enemy group...especially in an MMO...it begins to look silly.
It works for something like the Haven troopers (all female elite military unit) in Metal Gear Solid 4 because they're not too often encounter and when they are, they usually a force to be reckoned with, an obvious cut above the basic soldier. In order for the KoA to be like they're background, they would have to be limited to elite boss status or above only, having a single operative brought in when Malta really needs stuff killed stone dead. They're suppose to be better than all but the mostly highly trained Malta agent (you know, Slinger or Gyrfalcon) at what they do. |
Maybe have an added objective to several missions involving them be to take out their portable reclaimer that allows them to pretty much refield themselves continuously in one place.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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I've heard that the Netherworld is a place where the boob slider is locked at the smallest possible breasts and you can't move it