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You're neglecting the fact that AS gives +2 combo points, and AFAIK Stalker's Guile proc will give you a second crit. So if you slot the proc into AS, you get CU critting and doing about 6% more damage after AS. AS giving +2 combo points is also the reason for my above chain, going for 3x combo CU and SC. |
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| The chain I had in mind for my StJ/EA is (BU+AS+CU)-SB-AS-SC-SB-AS-CU. |
As of the patch today the Stalker's Guile proc is fixed so that it will fire a maximum once every 10 seconds. Since most chains we're talking about use AS at least twice in 10 seconds the trick is rigging it so the proc falls in front of CU and not a less damaging attack. As of right now, using the chain above (including the part in parentheses) will crit the first CU, but not SC and the second CU. If this is continuous the next thing to crit will be SC on the next go through, which means you lose it on the CU that follows. My point about placate was that it can be used to shore up that gap with sufficient recharge.
I'm not sure where you're getting that 6% figure. A fully combo'd finisher adds 25%. The breakdown is 1 combo: 5%, 2 combos: 12%, 3 combos: 25% + better secondary effects. Both finishers in your chain are firing with a full 3 combos. A critical will double the total damage after combos are factored in.
The Grim Saint - Virtueverse [1323 Badges]
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AFAIK the chance to crit is additive(could be wrong though). So at a 10% base, 21% for 7 teammates, you're at 76%-97% crit chance with AS.|
Originally Posted by Grim Saint
I'm aware that AS gives the two combo points and I wasn't talking about your chain specifically. However looking at it now I see that you only have two attacks between each AS, meaning you're losing out on the guaranteed critical. At best you'll have a 66% chance for it to crit, which considering the potential difference in damage is a big loss in DPS.
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| As of the patch today the Stalker's Guile proc is fixed so that it will fire a maximum once every 10 seconds. Since most chains we're talking about use AS at least twice in 10 seconds the trick is rigging it so the proc falls in front of CU and not a less damaging attack. As of right now, using the chain above (including the part in parentheses) will crit the first CU, but not SC and the second CU. If this is continuous the next thing to crit will be SC on the next go through, which means you lose it on the CU that follows. My point about placate was that it can be used to shore up that gap with sufficient recharge. |
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| I'm not sure where you're getting that 6% figure. A fully combo'd finisher adds 25%. The breakdown is 1 combo: 5%, 2 combos: 12%, 3 combos: 25% + better secondary effects. Both finishers in your chain are firing with a full 3 combos. A critical will double the total damage after combos are factored in. |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
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My mistake. I should have checked the arcanatimes instead of just assuming. You're absolutely right. | My chain is just over 10 seconds, which means CU will crit every time (assuming no misses). |
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| Crit does not take combo damage into account. So 100*2+12. In other words, it's a 12% increase if you don't crit, 6% increase if you crit, if you have 2 combo points before the finisher. |
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| AFAIK the chance to crit is additive(could be wrong though). So at a 10% base, 21% for 7 teammates, you're at 76%-97% crit chance with AS. |
I did, however, try running a chain based roughly on yours and actually improved my DPS - soloing a pylon in 3min 21sec. SS was substituted for SC and I threw in HB to build focus and allow AS time to recharge:
(BU-AS-CU) HB-SB-AS-SS-HB-SB-AS-CU
The nice thing about this is that it only requires about 190% recharge meaning you don't need hasten to run it, and the attacks before AS give it an overall crit rate of 88.95%. The finishers are both fully combo'd and the timing puts Stalker's Guile before CU every time (assuming no misses).
The Grim Saint - Virtueverse [1323 Badges]
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Well it has been the case on scrappers, and I have personally observed it with my stalker(you can easily test it with yours).|
Originally Posted by Grim Saint
Do you have a source for this? I don't doubt you're correct but I'd be curious to see a comprehensive order-of-operations for calculating damage. My searches so far have been fruitless. |
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| Sadly this is not actually the case according to the patch notes from i22's launch. Assassin's Strike while not Hidden has a base 0% chance to crit, and I assume this means teammates won't add to this chance either. Assassin's Focus is therefore the only way to build probability for AScrit. |
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I did, however, try running a chain based roughly on yours and actually improved my DPS - soloing a pylon in 3min 21sec. SS was substituted for SC and I threw in HB to build focus and allow AS time to recharge: (BU-AS-CU) HB-SB-AS-SS-HB-SB-AS-CU The nice thing about this is that it only requires about 190% recharge meaning you don't need hasten to run it, and the attacks before AS give it an overall crit rate of 88.95%. The finishers are both fully combo'd and the timing puts Stalker's Guile before CU every time (assuming no misses). |
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster
@Auroxis, Grim Saint:
There you go, dangling high-performance builds in front of me like a carrot. There are some very nice wrinkles to StJ and a nice bit of complexity when you have to take both combos and AF into account.
I'm a bit concerned with the high-performance chain, both the "cog-slipping" issue with missing an AS and the actual levels of recharge required, especially if the AS animation times get normalised. But that's a future issue.
And some people say Quickness doesn't contribute to damage...
This is weird. I'll get to why in a second.
I haven't had much time to play this week, but there were a couple of good sittings. First Ward - loving it. So far I've only done it on heroes but I'm not bored yet. Killer-Queen is looking forward to murdering Mother Mayhem so very much...
Starting at 27 I got some small stuff out of the way, popped an Experienced and soon came to worry I'd have to turn XP off or miss working with Vanessa de Vore. But in the end, there was no real problem and when I'd clobbered Selene I was well short of 30. At this time I was close to softcapping on a small purple and had 40+ mediums sitting in the AH, so barring RNG hate I was feeling fabulous even fighting EBs.
Then back to the little stuff - working tips, grabbing Combat Jumping at 30, (at 28 I'd finally gotten to Weave) and then on Saturday someone shouted about Sutter in Union global. So... Sutter. Well, you have to start working on your debt badges sometime, right. Hordes of bosses, a bit of ambushing...
With some nice support and in spite of my having some control issues, Killer-Queen kept diving into everything and not dying, and hit 31.
So again the little stuff - radios, Talos safeguard and then I see Citadel mentioned. It's getting late but in a fit of optimism I get on the team. Short story shorter; fascists in caves, fine support, ding-Crushing Uppercut!
Well, unslotted CU at least. Come 34 I figure I'll respec. Sweeping Cross will have to go for now and maybe one of the builders. Eventually I'll be going for permahasten and six minute godmode with Burnout but the levelling build presents a different set of choices...
Oh, the weirdness. Still haven't died. Not once, and usually I tend to get stupid or unlucky at least once before level 10.
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Congrats! AS(with proc)-->CU really is the Holy Grail of burst. Can't wait to hear what kind of carnage you kick up. | ding-Crushing Uppercut! |
With regard to my own build I think I've found a very happy balance. I dropped Weapon Mastery for Body and slotted Stamina, Superior Conditioning, and Physical Perfection with the Perf Shifter trifecta (stamina, stamina/accuracy, +end), popped the Unbreakable Constraint proc in CU per Auroxis's suggestion, and an End IO in SS. I settled for 85% global recharge which, along with the end boosts, allows me to run (BU-AS-CU) HB-SB-AS-SS-HB-SB-AS-CU for days on end without ever running out of endurance. Any deficit that begins to surface gets proc'd away by those shifters before it becomes a problem.
My pylon time is 3min 12sec now and I think that's where I'll settle. I know I can achieve more but doing so would mean sacrificing endurance stability for the necessary recharge and another power for Hasten and I don't think it's worth it at this point, especially considering how much I hate glowing hasten-fists.
I also rearranged to put a Zephyr KB in Recall Friend, one in Fly and the full set in Teleport. The boost in range means I can blink across a map faster than God and taking fly means I'm not reliant on jetpacks for aerial combat or reaching high places when teleport is impractical. 12 KB protect lets me stand in front of AVs driving trucks and never move an inch.
I really don't think I can beat the balance at this point - complete mez protection, soft capped defense, 30% s/l resist, 20HP/sec regen not including Nin's self heal, lightning fast travel, and a 3min 12sec SPARTAN (no inspirations, destiny, pets, or temp powers whatsoever) pylon solo time means there is hardly a situation I can't wade into face first. I solo'd the AVs in Maria Jenkin's arc yesterday with no inspirations and only died once - Battle Maiden got lucky
Considering what the ceiling for stalkers used to be, I think that's pretty incredible.
The Grim Saint - Virtueverse [1323 Badges]
I just wanted to say thanks for the updates. I find them very informative!
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
@Grim Saint:
That sounds very nice indeed - I'll see what I'll shoot for in the end but yes, that setup seems very solid. I may end up with something similar; a good solid build with the option to light up the glowing fists of fury and gping to town with the T9 for six minutes.
Not wed to the Burnout concept but I do like the idea of being a supersonic man.
@Ail: Thanks!
Weep, Paragon. Weep for Killer-Queen, for he is fallen.
And then he got up. Still, he's had his first round of debt. I can't blame him for it though, he's as ridiculously strong in his environment as always.
Now, this is probably all messed up - playtime has been in fairly short bursts but thatdoes reflect the stalker experience to some extent.
I find that Killer-Queen really shines in doing arcs. He feels even faster than my usual scrappers. Of course he's pretty bad as soon as escorts enter the picture but going to kill-all then handling the hostages works. There are some really stalker-unfriendly tip missions with multiple nonpowered escorts but then most missions are hugely stalker friendly so I'll keep my whining to when I'm actually running around with Hide off so some lazy git can keep up.
I suspect this is a lot less horrible than having stealth suppressed, though.
A bunch of tips and radios took me to 33 and a Crushing Uppercut with an Acc and 3 Dam and the lovely feeling of regularly twoshotting bosses. And another round of tips brought me into conflict with the dastardly Doctor Quantum.
You know the guy. Likes to play games. Energy blaster. Big on deathtraps. There's a hero confirmation mission that's just full of them, and I hadn't had my morning coffee so I figured "I'm at 40% AoE or so so I'll just get hit by maybe one of those proximity bombs".
Autohit autohit autohit.
Can't blame the build for that.
And then the guy went on being a machine. Posi part 1 was a breeze but that was mostly due to the MMs. I do take credit for a whole lot of promptly eliminated Ruin Mages though. Freakshow War. Library of Souls. Assorted small stuff and the levels just kept coming in.
35, Superior Conditioning and a proc in that and finally feeling the end of the slot crunch. I'm actually thinking I may keep some redundant attacks for exemplaring and set bonuses like Touch of Death's Melee bonus. Having Sweeping Cross still in the leveling build was very nice on Posi. Keeping that stuff will keep me from getting the confuse and the t9/Burnout combo in a timely fashion, but the toon is just insanely fun as is and I'm happy.
Ha! Found it! I knew this thread was in here.
I just started my own Stj/Nin stalker, and knew that a thread like this was on the forums. Gonna have to peruse this closely as I level, and also try and figure out your build Grim. Probably be easier when I'm not sleep deprived.
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Hah, same here, first stalker for me. Only did Brutes and Scrappers so far. Stj/Nin is tons of fun though, I hit 19 today after doing DfB until lvl 12 and then some Nemesis invasions.|
Originally Posted by Forevermore
Ha! Found it! I knew this thread was in here.
I just started my own Stj/Nin stalker, and knew that a thread like this was on the forums. Gonna have to peruse this closely as I level, and also try and figure out your build Grim. Probably be easier when I'm not sleep deprived. |
So I take it the PBoAE Placate power is crap?
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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You mean Smoke Bomb? Yeah, I took it once. Didn't help much. You eventually find out that by the time you get access to that power, you should already have no problems that would require you to use it in situations.|
Originally Posted by Razia
Hah, same here, first stalker for me. Only did Brutes and Scrappers so far. Stj/Nin is tons of fun though, I hit 19 today after doing DfB until lvl 12 and then some Nemesis invasions.
So I take it the PBoAE Placate power is crap? |
Though I will say fighting clones is challenging when they pop that, fade into hide, and smack you with a critical...
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I did Posi part 1 the other day. Found it quite funny when my shadow clone AS'ed the tank. 2 shot on a wp tank. I giggled maniacally!!|
Originally Posted by Synesence
You mean Smoke Bomb? Yeah, I took it once. Didn't help much. You eventually find out that by the time you get access to that power, you should already have no problems that would require you to use it in situations.
Though I will say fighting clones is challenging when they pop that, fade into hide, and smack you with a critical... |
I took caltrops and I don't even use it. Like, at all.
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I usually use Caltrops in battles against multiple bosses, otherwise I'd like my enemies to surround me as I unleash a beautiful Spinning Strike. It's good to slow down the attack rates of your enemies when you're getting pummeled, and especially useful against tough Bosses in the early levels.|
Originally Posted by Forevermore
I did Posi part 1 the other day. Found it quite funny when my shadow clone AS'ed the tank. 2 shot on a wp tank. I giggled maniacally!!
I took caltrops and I don't even use it. Like, at all. |
I did a Knives of Artemis tip mission on 1/8 and man....When you have more than 10 enemies throwing Caltrops on the ground, you realize how freaking annoying it actually is. Not only do they cancel out the ATO proc effect, but at the same time, if you don't actually move, you're pretty much dead.
I really, really, hate KOA...
I found Caltrops quiet usefull when I am surrounded by too many mobs. Happens sometimes in maps with odd spawns. I took HB and SC while leveling up (at lvl 23 atm), but I think I will respec out of them when I get SB and CU. I did take Placate, but I already noticed I didn't use it much. Might keep it for leveling up though.
Still unsure how to slot to get anywhere near the softcap without sacrificing too much. Is it even doable without purples and PvP IOs? I am also thinking to go Body Mastery just so I can have 3 Performance Shifter procs and powers that don't require slotting.
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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Without purples it won't be easy (the confuse set gives a nifty 5% ranged) but it's highly doable. The +3% pvp IO helps in the sense you can either not go with Agility (but having Maneuvers) or keep agility but drop Maneuvers for one extra slot (for Hasten for instance).|
Originally Posted by Razia
Still unsure how to slot to get anywhere near the softcap without sacrificing too much. Is it even doable without purples and PvP IOs? I am also thinking to go Body Mastery just so I can have 3 Performance Shifter procs and powers that don't require slotting.
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I personally went with Body Mastery on my StJ(/ice) and also on my (KM/)Nin toon and don't regret it.
@Viper Kinji
Currently working on:
Turtle Snapper - SD/MA/Ice Tanker
Thanks for the advice Viper Kinji
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
I have one of these and am unsure which direction to take him (although he is more a fun toon than a srsbsns type toon). I wonder if scraps will ever get ninjitsu....
*Heartattack* don't do that again, I was all: "WTF happend to my forums name?" :-)
Originally Posted by Megajoule
We're being invaded. Again. This time, instead of aliens, zombies, or eyeballs with teeth, it's the marching band.
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I softcapped my StJ/Nin Stalker with the use of the Gladiator Armor IO, but you can do it without it as well. Numina's Convalesence set in Kuji-In Sha, Luck of The Gambler in Hide, Ninja Reflexes, Danger Senses, Weave, plus 2 Touch Of Death sets, Scirroco's Dervish, and one Mako's Bite plus Steadfast Protection defense and boom! Good to go.|
Originally Posted by Razia
I found Caltrops quiet usefull when I am surrounded by too many mobs. Happens sometimes in maps with odd spawns. I took HB and SC while leveling up (at lvl 23 atm), but I think I will respec out of them when I get SB and CU. I did take Placate, but I already noticed I didn't use it much. Might keep it for leveling up though.
Still unsure how to slot to get anywhere near the softcap without sacrificing too much. Is it even doable without purples and PvP IOs? I am also thinking to go Body Mastery just so I can have 3 Performance Shifter procs and powers that don't require slotting. |
Managed to have my build ready (Wineskin works wonders), but no idea why it isn't working. How do you export your builds here?
Ok are you trying to get jsut softcap or softcap and perma hasten. Because nin is one of the easiest sets to softcap
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I've already achieved softcap, and I didn't take Hasten cause I love Kuji-In Rin on perma instead. What I can't get is Rebirth, seeing as how I'd like to have more survival, but sadly, got endurance issues all the time...|
Originally Posted by Dz131
Ok are you trying to get jsut softcap or softcap and perma hasten. Because nin is one of the easiest sets to softcap
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From hide CU will critical for a base 353.68 at level 50 versus AS's 389.28. The difference is only 10% and you're paying for it with a 3.17 second interruptible wind-up. Granted you also get demoralize and the ability to stay hidden if you miss, but these perks are only really useful while soloing. On teams and especially in itrials you will almost never get through that wind-up before getting hit with something's AOE patch, and even if you DO make it through chances are your target will be at or near death by the time it fires considering the rapid pace of raids.
Long story short - there are very few instances where you'll want to use AS over CU from hide, especially endgame.
Another thing I noticed while looking over StJ chains in this thread was a neglect of the combo system. A fully combo'd finisher does an extra 25% damage along with enhanced secondary effects - CU's stun becomes a hold for instance. It's an interesting problem trying to optimize both focus and regular combos without compromising one or the other.
AS giving +2 combo points is also the reason for my above chain, going for 3x combo CU and SC.
Mains (Freedom) @Auroxis
Auroxis - Emp/Rad/Power Defender Pylon Video Soloing an AV
Pelvic Thunder - SS/Elec/Mu Brute
Sorajin - Elec/Nin Stalker
Neuropain - Sonic/Mental/Elec Blaster