So which Praetorians are actually -dead-? (spoilers)
By
Agent White,
Posted on: 2012-03-08 15:43 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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@Golden Girl
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Given that before his betrayal, Maelstrom was a U.S. Citizen and special forces agent AND THEN COMMITTED HIGH TREASON against his native country, we might have locked him up but I'm pretty sure the CIA's seen to it he's dead or has been 'interrogated' into mental oblivion.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
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Fixed.
| Given that before his betrayal, Maelstrom was a U.S. Citizen and special forces agent AND THEN COMMITTED HIGH TREASON against his native country, we might have locked him up but I'm pretty sure the CIA's seen to it he's been put back on the payroll. |
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Honestly Mael seems more like a candidate for Malta than Battle Maiden. But he doesn't have a nifty halberd, or boobs. Unless the maelstrom device was hiding more than we know 
... still don't honestly get how he was intended to represent vigilantes. he's just a straight up villain from day 1. Kind of curious if we'll see any more interaction with him and Twinshot, or if that was purely a one off thing as a hamfisted red herring.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
Siege - Defeated in the BAF, also Metronome is riding around in his carcass like a new suit sooo I'm guessing he might be dead-dead, if there aren't any back ups of his AI around.
So, that's about it. Did I miss anything? |
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Originally Posted by Maria Jenkins
Siege used to have a body that was similar to Citadel's, but he long since abandonded it once the new model Clockwork bodies came online. Now he hops from shell to shell for whatever he feels is appropriate for the job at hand.
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Given that we defeated Marauder in his home dimension, in his own SG base, I don't assume that he's dead or arrested. I assume that when his corpse despawns, it's him mediporting out, not us arrest teleporting him. I'm willing to be wrong about this, but that's how it looks to me.
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I don't think he's supposed to represent Vigilantes. He's supposed to be a Hero turned Villain in the same vein as Desdemona is a Villain turned Hero.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
... still don't honestly get how he was intended to represent vigilantes. he's just a straight up villain from day 1. Kind of curious if we'll see any more interaction with him and Twinshot, or if that was purely a one off thing as a hamfisted red herring.
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Save for the fact that he never once acts heroic. Ever. I count Maelstrom as a straight up villain through and through.
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yeah, that's kind of my point. He's never heroic, at all. He's just a jerkass from the first time you meet him.
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Originally Posted by William_Valence
I don't think he's supposed to represent Vigilantes. He's supposed to be a Hero turned Villain in the same vein as Desdemona is a Villain turned Hero.
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Well, he is a loyalist poster boy |
Originally Posted by Agent White
yeah, that's kind of my point. He's never heroic, at all. He's just a jerkass from the first time you meet him.
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@Golden Girl
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His hero time was laid out in his backstory. He was, indeed, a villain from the time you first met him.|
Originally Posted by Agent White
yeah, that's kind of my point. He's never heroic, at all. He's just a jerkass from the first time you meet him.
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| He entered the military at the earliest convenience and never had a problem accepting the orders of a superior officer. His loyalty and devotion (as well as the connections his father had before he was killed) saw Eddie promoted into a super-secret black ops division of the military. His loyalty never wavered and his devotion was only strengthened with every off-the-books mission he performed. That is until the one day he was captured and disavowed by the very government that he swore to uphold. |
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Well, it's possible his background was supposed to be the heroic part, and his fall from grace was all done off camera. ...Of course his background involved a secret government agency going to alternate dimensions and illegally stealing their technology... so I'm not too sure where the heroic part was supposed to come in.
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Originally Posted by Agent White
yeah, that's kind of my point. He's never heroic, at all. He's just a jerkass from the first time you meet him.
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Yeah, I'm still not seeing the "heroism" either.
...so you're basically saying that being a soldier isn't heroic. Hoo, boy! *runs away from the ensuing firefight*
He signed up to be a soldier. That is the mudder fudding epitome of hero.
Due to connections, he got into black ops. Blacker and blacker, all the way toward vigilante, and finally his government said "no go!" and he totally went whackball.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Willing to do whatever black budget nuttery a superior officer asks you to do I hardly consider "heroic." Black ops does a lot of pretty screwed up, evil stuff.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
...so you're basically saying that being a soldier isn't heroic. Hoo, boy! *runs away from the ensuing firefight*
He signed up to be a soldier. That is the mudder fudding epitome of hero. Due to connections, he got into black ops. Blacker and blacker, all the way toward vigilante, and finally his government said "no go!" and he totally went whackball. |
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I never once said black ops part was heroic. He signed up to be a soldier. Through his connections, he was eventually promoted to black ops. The part before the black ops is pretty frikken heroic. You cannot tell me that someone who signs up to be a soldier is not a hero. You cannot. Simply cannot. No matter the reasons behind the sign-up, the result is a gol' durn hero. Period, end of story. What happens after that is completely irrelevant.
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Originally Posted by Scythus
Willing to do whatever black budget nuttery a superior officer asks you to do I hardly consider "heroic." Black ops does a lot of pretty screwed up, evil stuff.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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That's a hard argument. Would you expect a whig to praise "Those heroic Redcoats, fighting in the colonies, protecting England's best interests."
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
...so you're basically saying that being a soldier isn't heroic. Hoo, boy! *runs away from the ensuing firefight*
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The British sure would, yes, indeed. (Perhaps not all modern British would, but certainly a large majority way back when.)
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Originally Posted by MajorDecoy
That's a hard argument. Would you expect someone to praise "Those heroic Redcoats, fighting in the colonies, protecting England's best interests."
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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being a soldier doesn't make you a hero anymore than being a football player makes you a Hall of Famer... some soldiers are without question heroes... it's the actions taken while in that role that can lead you to being a hero not the role it's self... but I know what you meant, I just felt like being nit-picky...
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
He signed up to be a soldier. That is the mudder fudding epitome of hero.
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No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded...
"The potato goes in the FRONT."
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By that definition, my utterly malevolent namesake, Scythus, was a "do-gooder turned evil" simply because his intents to unravel the mysteries of string theory were completely for the betterment of science. But when his device exploded and he was caught between our reality and the Netherworld and went insane, his villainy began.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
I never once said black ops part was heroic. He signed up to be a soldier. Through his connections, he was eventually promoted to black ops. The part before the black ops is pretty frikken heroic. You cannot tell me that someone who signs up to be a soldier is not a hero. You cannot. Simply cannot. No matter the reasons behind the sign-up, the result is a gol' durn hero. Period, end of story. What happens after that is completely irrelevant.
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Most villains usually are decent folks and only think they're doing right before they turned toward evil. Darth Vader, anyone?
Because of this, the "secret origin" is hardly relevant as we know the character now. When we're first introduced to Maelstrom in Praetoria, he's a villain. Period. We never see his fall.
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It's not really nit-picky to correct someone making an absolute statement that is really a complete over generalization. |
Originally Posted by Gr33n
being a soldier doesn't make you a hero anymore than being a football player makes you a Hall of Famer... some soldiers are without question heroes... it's the actions taken while in that role that can lead you to being a hero not the role it's self... but I know what you meant, I just felt like being nit-picky...
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You honor soldiers of your country because they choose to serve for the 'greater interest' of its people. The ideal of a soldier is heroic, but not simply 'being' a soldier. For all we know, he could have signed up to be a soldier for the chance to shoot people.
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Yes, indeed. I agree. A good example of falling from grace, yes.|
Originally Posted by Scythus
By that definition, my utterly malevolent namesake, Scythus, was a "do-gooder turned evil" simply because his intents to unravel the mysteries of string theory were completely for the betterment of science. But when his device exploded and he was caught between our reality and the Netherworld and went insane, his villainy began.
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| Most villains usually are decent folks and only think they're doing right before they turned toward evil. Darth Vader, anyone? |
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| Because of this, the "secret origin" is hardly relevant as we know the character now. When we're first introduced to Maelstrom in Praetoria, he's a villain. Period. We never see his fall. |
HOWEVER... that's neither here nor there when it comes to the topic of this thread and as such, I will stop participating in this threadjack.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.
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Um... no it's not. We never see him fall. That's the whole point of why he's not a "hero turned villain" poster boy. We see Desdemona (the poster girl for redeemed villains) redeem herself, where in early tip missions, she's a villain, but in later tip missions (and Incarnate content) she's a hero.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
This is correct. However, the secret origin is certainly relevant when it comes to being a posterboy for hero-turned-villain.
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A better poster boy for fallen heroes is Doc Quantum. We actually witness him becoming less and less ethical as time goes on until he completely crosses the red line.
And as Agent White said, for all we know, Maelstrom could have enlisted simply to have the chance to shoot people. There are, in fact, unfortunately a lot of soldiers that're like that.
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But you can't uniformly say that all people consider soldiers heroic, or should.|
Originally Posted by Aggelakis
The British sure would, yes, indeed. (Perhaps not all modern British would, but certainly a large majority way back when.)
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Yes, there certainly are soldiers who are heroic and perform acts of heroism.
There are also soldiers who turn machine guns on unarmed, naked people.
Ok so the Praetorian War has been going on for a while and we've taken down well over half of the major baddies. But which ones have actually been killed and which just 'defeated'? Dark Astoria gives us a fair amount of hints, as have some of the newer trials.
More specifically, Praetor Duncan's arc says outright that Praetoria is falling apart and most of the Praetors are dead or missing. So, let's see who is accounted for!
Anti-Matter - Taken down in the Keyes Island incarnate trial. However, Metronome in the MoM trial explicitly tells the PC he wished we Incarnates had killed AM. So, defeated, whereabouts unknown.
Battle Maiden - Defeated in the Apex taskforce, Vanguard put her in lock up. Malta broke her out to upgrade their equipment to deal with Incarnates. Definitely alive.
Black Swan - Unseen since defeating her in Maria Jenkins arc.
Bobcat - Taken down with Neuron in the Tin mage Taskforce. Going to assume she's likewise locked up as Battle Maiden was.
Chimera - Alive and the new Praetorian gadget man as of Dark Astoria's timeline.
Diabolique - Presumably made non-existant by the Dream Doctor at the end of Dilemma Diabolique.
Dominatrix - Alive but considering turning traitor after DA.
Infernal - Unseen since defeating him in Maria Jenkins arc.
Maelstrom - Defeated at the end of TPN iTrial, presumably locked up.
Malaise - Defeated with Shalice Tilman in Minds of Mayehm. Presumably dead since Mother Mayhem basically mind ***** him and no one bothered pulling him out of the Seer Network when we severed Shalice.
Marauder - Defeated in the Lamnda Sector trial. Presumably locked up.
Mother Mayhem - Presumably dead as of MoM, but hinted that she may still survive it.
Neuron - Defeated in the Tin Mage Taskforce. However, Anti-Matter makes note that he's glad we 'got rid' of him. So possibly dead?
Nightstar - Defeated in the BAF iTrial. Since she's just a robot, potentially just dead.
Shadowhunter - Murdered by the Praetorian Devouring Earth. Ensured to stay dead thanks to the Maria Jenkins mission.
Siege - Defeated in the BAF, also Metronome is riding around in his carcass like a new suit sooo I'm guessing he might be dead-dead, if there aren't any back ups of his AI around.
Tyrant - Alive and kicking!
So, that's about it. Did I miss anything?