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Did somebody claim that? I haven't, that I recall. I claimed FS was twice as good as WS for a scrapper (using an admittedly very simplified comparison), versus half-again as good on brutes. That specific ratio will not necessarily hold in a more detailed comparison (as you've done, still with some simplifications), but I'd be very surprised if the advantage totally disappears or is reversed.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Still a damn far cry from 200% better.
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Originally Posted by BellaStrega
But benchmarks won't tell the whole story. It's like comparing Midnight Grasp to Headsplitter on raw numbers alone (and ignoring that one is lethal with a 19 degree cone and the other negative energy and single target), or looking at how a scrapper performs with Soul Drain saturated 50% of the time compared to other scrapper sets vs. how a brute performs with Soul Drain saturated 50% of the time compared to other brute sets. There will always be a larger disparity in scrapper sets in terms of differing damage buffs due to the higher base damage.
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| All things being equal, Titan Weapons has more AOE attacks and thus higher AOE potential than super strength. The cone attacks also have a 10 foot range and two of them hit fairly hard. So while the SS scrapper will hit harder with foot stomp, the TW character has titan sweep, arc of destruction, as well as defensive sweep whereas SS has single-target attacks. Comparing similar powers one for one will favor SS and SS may outperform other single target sets, but even with raged up foot stomp, will it outperform the AoE sets in the manner you're suggesting? |
But to answer the question directly, will SS outperform other AoE sets by itself? Usually no. But it will underperform them by less on a scrapper than it does on a brute.
So we're back to square one with the following:
1: SS is not being ported to scrappers because it's already broken on brutes and tanks, therefore SS needs to be fixed now and ported over.
2: SS is not broken and should be ported over now.
In either case, continuing along with scrappers (and stalkers, of course) not getting SS is silly.
Be well, people of CoH.
Yep. Agreed.
Anyway, the discussion of exactly how broken SS would be in a hypothetical straight scrapper port is kinda academic, and it's cutting into my Saturday night playing time, so I'm gonna try to leave this thread alone now.
Not going to happen but keep holding your breath.
SS is for brutes and tanker. Which happen to be the melees with the lowest base damaged for attacks and weakest damage scale in the game.
When you dealing with the bottom two melee AT attack bases damage you have a lot more leeway. You are not going to set new damage records by give a buff like Rage or a good PBAE like FS to a tanker. It simple not that overpowering on other Tanks or even Brutes.
When you talk about scrapper and Stalkers with such high base damage and then you think about increasing the Rage to 100% and giving these AT a 15 radius BPAE like FS, you going to reach new levels of damage which is why scrappers want SS so bad.
You can see the Huge Damage potential just sitting screaming COME GET ME.
SS was designed for Tankers because of the low damage base but still potent set. The only reason it work for brutes is that they also have such a low damage base as well. Below that of tankers actually.
Honestly, it just not going to work scrappers or stakers because it was designed for lower based AT. It would just be too crazy awesome with the already crazy high damage base of scrappers and stalkers.
It simply not going to work in its current.
They could give Scrappers a watered down version, just to say you have it. Change Rage to build up and reduce FS to 8 Radius but that would not make you guys happy in the least.
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This is all nothing but rationalization and excuses. If the damage scale is too high for scrappers, it's definitely too high for ATs that have a lower base damage scale, especially since the point of a lower damage scale is that their attacks are not intended to hit as hard, or to balance damage around a mechanic like Fury. Speaking of which, Fury throws your entire explanation about brutes out of whack, since brutes are able to approach and rival scrapper damage due to having the ability to buff themselves and having a high damage cap when teaming.|
Originally Posted by Louis_Cipher
Not going to happen but keep holding your breath.
SS is for brutes and tanker. Which happen to be the melees with the lowest base damaged for attacks and weakest damage scale in the game. When you dealing with the bottom two melee AT attack bases damage you have a lot more leeway. You are not going to set new damage records by give a buff like Rage or a good PBAE like FS to a tanker. It simple not that overpowering on other Tanks or even Brutes. When you talk about scrapper and Stalkers with such high base damage and then you think about increasing the Rage to 100% and giving these AT a 15 radius BPAE like FS, you going to reach new levels of damage which is why scrappers want SS so bad. You can see the Huge Damage potential just sitting screaming COME GET ME. SS was designed for Tankers because of the low damage base but still potent set. The only reason it work for brutes is that they also have such a low damage base as well. Below that of tankers actually. Honestly, it just not going to work scrappers or stakers because it was designed for lower based AT. It would just be too crazy awesome with the already crazy high damage base of scrappers and stalkers. It simply not going to work in its current. They could give Scrappers a watered down version, just to say you have it. Change Rage to build up and reduce FS to 8 Radius but that would not make you guys happy in the least. |
Also, throw spines does the same damage that foot stomp would do in a scrapper's hands.
Also, titan weapons/whirling smash on scrappers is a 15' AoE.
Elsegame: Champions Online: @BellaStrega ||| Battle.net: Ashleigh#1834 ||| Bioware Social Network: BellaStrega ||| EA Origin: Bella_Strega ||| Steam: BellaStrega ||| The first Guild Wars: Kali Magdalene ||| The Secret World: BelleStarr (Arcadia)
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And it is delicious.|
Originally Posted by BellaStrega
Also, titan weapons/whirling smash on scrappers is a 15' AoE.
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For the record, I'd rather keep FS on brutes and tankers only, but that's just me. For scraps, I have StJ to satisfy my smashy needs.
I just wish Spinning Strike was A) bigger and B) PBAoE not TAoE.
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Why reduce it to an 8ft radius? Titan Weapons AoEs all retain their range regardless of AT, why would FS be any different?
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Originally Posted by Louis_Cipher
Reduce FS to 8 Radius but that would not make you guys happy in the least.
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If stacking Rage is a problem then Rage shouldn't be allowed to stack.
Take that, stain that used to be a deceased equus ferus.
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
Going to use the same argument I have since the beginning. If SuperStrength is overpowered on Scrappers, it's overpowered period. Which is true.
Right now players are allowed to have an overpowered set if they're willing to play it as a Brute. I have a SS/Regen Brute. I like him a lot. But if he's OK, then it should be OK to proliferate SS to Scrappers. It is intended for Scrappers to self-buff damage more. Scrappers have a higher base damage mod for a reason. Those elements provide what little uniqueness the AT still has (since Stalkers have the entirety of the Scrapper inherent plus a whole lot besides).
I don't doubt that Rage would need to go if SS were ported. Or it would need to be nerfed. Both would be acceptable IMO. If rage lost its crash, but provided a significantly lower damage buff, that would be fine with me.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Something else reasonable to do would be make it so that rage's damage bonus only affects smashing damage, or has a larger effect on it - like Fiery Embrace used to work.
If the power is meant to increase SS's damage to be competitive and the most shining examples of it being overpowered are when you factor in what it does to things like fiery aura and patron/ancillary attacks wouldn't that work?
Weight training: Because you'll never hear someone lament "If only I were weaker, I could have saved them."
That's an interesting idea.
Why not just admit that SS is overpowered?
I mean I have never seen anyone prove that it isn't.
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
To be honest, I think I'd be fine with either A) a smaller damage buff or B) ONLY affecting Super Strength attacks. My SS/Elec brute probably wouldn't notice either way since he has Fury anyway, and Scrappers... hell, they wouldn't notice, would they, if they didn't have the broken* Rage to compare it to?
Just my two cents.
*I feel it's broken, and it's the main reason I don't play my SS brute very often. It's just Rage boosting a lackluster attack chain and patron powers, plus one overhyped AoE.
Be well, people of CoH.