Cat Herding

Ah, just the title makes me feel silly.

"Thanks for the cat herding, Rex!"

This phrase puzzled me initially. I've mentioned this to more than a few friends. After a UGT, inevitably, I'd get a comment like this one.

Slow, obtuse fellow that I am, I initially just thought they were referring to the IDF and DE, although none of them made me think of cats.

Then, a light finally dawned, and I realized that this comment was referring to the league.

The players - who, for the most part, I've teamed with many times doing this very trial (ugt).
So, there was a hami raid yesterday. I was very late, as I had other plans that early evening. I was quite surprised to see folks on my global list still in the hive.

The first response I got back when I asked what would be most useful, was to "please bring a toon that will make people follow simple instructions."

Sadly, Macro Man isn't ready for the hive just yet. So, I brought an emp. I suspect most of the suffering was over, as things seemed to be going fine.

Yet, I think Tax E's reference to following instructions in the latest Hamidon Raid thread has merit. I'm quite sure some were not standing in the right spots, and mistargeting, and having pets out at inopportune times.

So, I thought to myself: What are the reasons that most people don't follow simple instructions?

Sadly, I came up with a really long list. And those of us that know better can't do anything about people that consume alcohol and/or drugs and play.

We can't do anything to guess what foreign language some players actually understand.

We can't discipline a 15 year old kid who just wants to do what he wants to do because he's already spent 7 hours at school doing what "They" wanted him to do.

BUT!!! It occurred to me - perhaps there is a small contingent of people who have no idea how to set up their screen.

Since I don't feel like following the instructions on how to put a picture in here, here's a url of how most of my screens are set up.

http://warshade.weebly.com/screenshot.html


Obviously, that screen shot doesn't do much, but it does show a way to have a screen set up.

This could be a complete waste of time, but I think it might help one or two people if we could get a guide together on how to set up combat attributes, league chat, request chat, basic inspiration combining macros, etc.

That may be too ambitious for a single guide. <shrug>

But I do know for a fact that when I tell people to monitor their confusion protection, even though I gave them the slash command, 10 UGTs later, they have no idea how to cut and paste this command in their chat bar, or they think just using clarion when they're confused is good enough. (not thinking about the folks that may have to retarget and/or locate their initial target in the league roster) I recall clearly telling someone with t4 clarion to spam their clarion when protection dropped to 21. I got a "How do I know when it's at 21?" Talk about your /em facepalm!

There's no wrong way to have your chat set up, of course, unless you can't read what you should be reading. (i.e. league, request, team)

I've been told point blank that if my directions are longer than one line, most people won't read them. This stuns me, but I have to realize that my audience is not filled with college grad students who can read 950 words a minute. Some are parents, who for some reason or another play with small children nearby. Some are people with lives that demand attention away from the screen on occasion.

Still, I know that some just don't know how to set their screen up. They're returning after a long hiatus and had no idea that the league invite they accepted would require them to do a little tweaking so that they could actually read league chat, and communicate with other folks in the league without having to send tells. They don't know how to cut and paste a url from a browser into a chat text field. They don't even know these forums exist!

And, please, note my signature - People that have no idea what they are doing generally lack the skill to recognize the fact that they have no idea what they are doing. This is a large part of why bad players have no idea that they are bad players. (It doesn't mean that they are bad people, or evil. It just means that they simply don't know what they are doing wrong, nor why it's wrong.) They pay their money and try to have fun. They've little inclination to realize or learn the difference between a pull and a taunt.

SG leaders - I challenge you to make sure your people at least know how to monitor their combat attributes. Teach them what soft cap defense is, and why they should choose to try for this goal or not.
Don't give them a fish a day, teach them to fish!

If you're an SG leader and you don't know these things yourself, ask someone, learn it, and pass it on to your group.

How many times have I come across would be badgers who seriously want an MoTF - but have no idea that not being softcapped places a tremendous burden on the team. If you have no defenses, you get hit a lot more. Common sense to almost everyone who will read this.

Yet, there are some that want those badges, but feel like it's too much work to respec their toons, but then complain because they can't get the MoTF they want. But there are others who had no idea that there are methods for boosting positional or typed defense.

I understand. They play two hours a week. Heck, it's Friday morning, I've already played two hours today, and will likely play at least another 4 before I log.

Some players while trials are forming, or waiting for that last person to switch are using the auction house, or changing their costumes, chatting on ventrillo or any number of other things. I basically assume that no one is paying attention until they demonstrate that they are.


Well, that's a lot to digest. If I can ever figure out a coherent, easy to read guide on setting up the screen for success, I will. But in the meantime, if any of you already have one off the top of your head, please share. The MoTF you save could be yours!

I heavily customize how my screen is laid out. I have a natural tendency to see better up and to the right and poorly on the upper left. I also use #s 1-6 for my most frequently used powers, especially buffs and heals on my support characters. The team list is now near the power tray and the map or league UIs go in the upper left where I can reference them, but aren't in my 'field of vision'. I have it all set up so that my mouse only has to move around a small area of the screen most of the time. Inside indoor maps I play with a tiny minimap in the upper left because I lose direction easily. I also enabled reticles for health and power so I can monitor the hps above characters' heads as well as in the league and team UIs.

I've figured out what works best for me after all these years, but most people play with the default. Maybe that works for them, but perhaps it presents problems. There are so many options to choose from.

I'll admit that I need to be taught to fish in some things and Ukase has helped me out on this. When it comes to moving between lists (like the incarnate creation process) I can forget what I just read, and anything with math I get confused easily. Those of you who know me best know why, but the short version is I'm accommodating some medical limitations. Annihilius and Ukase have been great about giving advice and answering build questions. Combat Attributes has to be just about the greatest thing ever.

I've heard of people playing with anything from babies to pets in their lap. Phone calls, spouses, lightning strikes that kill your PC, real life has a way of complicating a hobby. The best unannounced afk excuse I've heard when the player came back is, "my roommate just attempted suicide" seconded by "brb garage on fire".

So, I heartily approve of this fish.

PS: I'll take some screenies of my customized layouts and post them this weekend. Maybe someone will find them helpful.

As far as the lack of true teamwork goes, I agree, but there's a reaason for this that I didn't see you meantion, Ukase. I've been seeing teamwork go downhill for a while, and this downward trend has inversely followed the upward trend in 'speed' TFs / SFs where teamwork is neither needed, or even wanted.

As people have gotten 'better' at this, they've gotten stuck in the rut of 'on a team but fighting solo' that is now, pretty much, the average mentality - or at least this attitude is far more common now than I've ever seen it before.

So, it seems to me, anyone who wants other people to learn teamwork, should lead teams, rather than lead up to 7 or more other players in a group of soloists. Because solists on a team are NOT team players, and the only way to teach that is to NOT put people in a position where, as on 'speed' teams, teamwork is not only unwelcome, it just plain does not exist.

My two cents.
~Raven

You raise an interesting point. But, the one thing I've seen on speed runs is that those who are comfortable with speeding are the ones least likely to face plant on an Mo.

However, there is some merit to this philisophical argument when considered in trial context. I've seen plenty of speed tf folks "blow" preservation specialist attempts -but I had always considered these failures a passive-aggressive attempt to speed things up, not an inability to be a good team member. But, perhaps I was wrong.

I do know that I far prefer to speed the tfs -because they are far longer than I'd like them to be. I want the reward at the end, and I consider the tf to be a bitter pill to be swallowed - not an opportunity for fun.

For me, there are only 2 things in this game that provide any amusement, and that's UGT and MoM. The rest is just a means to an end.

I know that there are a larger number of players that would prefer the speed runs to be reserved for special occasions, because their toons are not equipped with super-speed and stealth procs. I know that I found speed runs to be absolutely horrible, until I could afford my own stealth procs.

All that being said, a person tping to the end where the boss is surely wouldn't make a player less likely to read chat.

Although, I suspect, trying to speed a Positron TF surely demonstrates the foolishness of a speed run, as it certainly will reveal a lack of teamwork if there is some to be found. Whereas, in level 50 tfs, with incarnate powers, players are not so dependant on buffs/debuffs from their teammates.

Another factor might be the F2P player, who only recently has been able to ask questions here on the forums.

Even so, I think a player who doesn't know how to set up their UI is going to be a burden to a league or team, no matter how well they play. Someone who's inclined to follow directions can't follow them if they don't see them. (and they may have league or request chat enabled - but if they have system rewards in the same box, one judgement or nuke can eclipse instructions given.

Sorry, but there's no way I could keep all that up on my screen...
I have a relatively small monitor and if I had even half that many windows active I wouldn't be able to see what my character was doing, where they were going or what the heck was going on. I also know I'm far from alone in that particular situation. Not everyone has a vast amount of screen real estate to work with, and you have to pick and choose what's there and what's not.

Having league or team chat up is necessary and monitoring individual attributes in certain trials does have its uses, but wanting everyone to keep the rest of that mess active at all times? That's overkill.

I also disagree that having to have soft-capped defenses is necessary for Master of- runs if you want to avoid being an "undue burden" on your team or league.

There's not one single character in my entire crew that has soft-capped Defenses of any sort. Not one. Not even the toons who have multiple Master of- badges in their collections. It's just not necessary if you're willing to slow down a little and pay attention to what you're doing. (And no... I'm not going to respec all of them and ruin their builds that were designed to do other things, just because everyone and their dog seems to think soft-capping is the only way to play anymore. That would be silly. Not to mention taking up all the potential play-time I'd have for the next month. Not. Gonna. Happen. )

All that said... it's just a fact that some people are always going to be better at following the script than others. Some people are going to listen and (more to the point, I suspect-) understand a leader's instructions, and some are going to be distracted morons who auto-run past the bomb team and get themselves blown up. That's just the nature of the beast when you're dealing with as diverse and public an environment as an MMO.

Talking to people and pointing useful things out to them is good... But I don't think we can expect miracles. At best, we might end up with a few more people who know what "Get out of the way" means.

Monitor size is a factor that I hadn't considered - which is shameful, because I used to play on a 15 inch monitor - in safe mode, no less - and my power tray and inspirations easily took up almost a full quarter of my screen. So, thanks for that reminder.

You're absolutely right - not every toon needs to be soft-capped for defense. My point was that every player should know the mechanics of defense. - A point I obviously failed to make.

Different players are indeed going to have different skills and abilities. I just want to find a way to allow those that don't know an easier way to find out.

Good stuff, Done my share of the hearding, Btw Rex made shift+3 on AV last night. Monitor size and screenlayout are things only in control of the player who is sitting at there screen. I like the fact that we are able to costumize our screens I have mine set 4 corners and along the boarders I reserve the middle for the game I too was like Rex using a 15 " monitor and dial up I had the one tray chat open and nav bar I learned most maps by heart visual sight and to this day I still hate cave maps. especially the big circle room, you all know which one.

AV

Want to know an interesting fact? Of the task forces or strike forces I've done in the past two years where I've watched as a team wiped, or near-wiped, time and again, LESS than ten of those were ones that were NOT trying to 'speed'.

I've been on over a dozen task forces or teams almost every month in this time period. I have born witness to teams and leagues getting continually less relaible unless I'm teaming with certain people. So when I get asked or invited to a speed team I'll invariably pass on it because I already have reason to doubt that I'm truly needed for it.

Case in point, today's Positron 1 task force where the cats were in dire need of being leashed, and the thing took probably half again as long as it SHOULD have because teamwork was not asked for, and didn't seem wanted, either.

So when I say that the decrease of teamwork has mirrored the rise of people 'speeding' things, it's because I have WATCHED this happen, over the course of the last two or three years. 'Speed' teams do NOT require, or even want, teamwork, all they want is people who can survive, and if they can't survive, they want people who don't whine and gripe about death. At the very least, they always want people on the team who don't mind watching one or two other team members butts vanish into the distance as the objectives often get solved withOUT the aid of all, or even most, of the team.

And THAT'S what you call teamwork? Yeah. Whatever.

~Raven

As far as team work goes, i think that it has to do alot with who you are teaming with. On high lvl TF's i believe there is alot less demand for teamwork, take for instance an ITF. The majority of the people i team with on speed runs i know for a fact could most likely solo the mission. So there isn't a real concern in my mind for those higher lvl missions where the entire team splits up and completes the various requirements to finish that mission/TF.

I do find that in iTrials, and lower lvl tf's there is a need to know your role on the team/league and perform that role the best you can. Case in point, i was on a synapse yesterday. We traveled as a team, and worked together quite well....but we also had to to survive. When your toon is lvl 15-20(even exemplar'd down) there is a much higher risk of you dying from that mob aggro. You're not god like at those lvls, and shouldn't be imo. Thats the time in a toons "career" where u learn how to play it, how to perform for your team, and make sure you stay alive as well as keeping your team alive. Those lessons are continued in the high lvl iTrials (UGT, MoM). Each person has a role. You have to do your best to fulfill that role to keep your team running properly.

In my mind there are two kinds of teams. Those people that i mentioned earlier(we all have them). The ones, that you know how survivable they are. Which direction they will head. If they need a barrier pop before they enter a room or perhaps they are the ones that will give you the barrier pop, knowing full well that ul need it. Knowing, ok, this guy can go solo this room while this one could use some back up. or vice versa.

Then there are those pug teams. The one where you hop on, whether cuz your bored, don't have any globals on, or just are looking for some badges/xp/random fun. With those i don't think you have any choice but to play as a team, other wise you get that lovely team wipe out and then start the mission of with an extra ounce of caution before flying into the x8 room. On those teams i find myself sitting back and watching what role needs to be fulfilled. Whether its the tank can't tank, or the healer can 't heal or whatever and try and fill in the gaps with whatever power i have that might help out. And occasionally you get that awesome pug team where stuff just goes flawlessly and you walk away with that badge or grin on your face from things just jelling the way they were supposed to.

And in the middle of all this is the fact that i do think that the way you organize your toon(screen, power chain, combat attributes etc) greatly increases the amount of success that is put onto a team. IMO that is personal preference and there is no equation for what it is to look like, but i do agree that you need to know what your doing, what state your toon is in , in that instance and knowing, and looking ahead to be able to react to what MIGHT happen. I myself normally play on a laptop as my internet is fast at work, so i generally am playing there. My 17" screen only holds so much...but i do think a person can organize things enough and have the essentials placed out there so you know what is happening and how to react to it all.

Guess those are my thoughts on some of the things posted here.

GL out there!

Today, I did a Sister Psyche TF. It took us an hour and a half - and there was certainly no more than one defeat.

This was a non-speed run. I was on a tank - but there were 2 brutes and two scrappers, a corruptor, controller and a PB.

Truth be told, I wanted to speed this thing. But, I didn't because I knew that there was one new-ish player who may have never done it before, and I figured this might have been an instance where attempts at speeding might take longer than fighting through.

That being said - I still saw the team split several times - so, even though I was the tank, and the leader of the tf, I turned and followed after one of the brutes.

I will say it - I was bored out of my skull. The things I have to put myself through for a silly accolade. But, this was my second level 50 that had been shelved on Triumph for a very long time.

I understand that some toons cannot "speed". And I don't mind slowing down the pace - most of the time. I know that in incarnate trials, I simply won't do lambda anymore because of this ridiculous speed thing where the turrets and streets are skipped.

In going slow - I learned that team skills do not improve by doing things slowly. The team does fare better, yes. People have more time to sip their drinks, answer the phone, tend to children, etc.
Non-speed is casual. It's more for fun, enjoying the cool way pink lightning looks when its circling the npc's feet, and things like that. I am so rarely in a mood to do that. Usually, the only time I want to do that is either very late at night, or very early in the day.

But all of that is an aside. This point behind this post was to share with people what my UI looked like, and to solicit suggestions from others what theirs looks like.
When the hami raid leader says "get back to your mitos" - I don't want to see a league wipe because someone missed that comment because it was in such a place that the player or players didn't see it.

I do think that people should understand the mechanics of defense - or at least be willing to learn about it.

I do think that everyone should spend some time and share with people what they know with people who don't know but would like to.

All I want to do is help people play better - if they want to. Not by telling them that it's unwise for a tank to choose 4 travel powers - even though I think it's a silly idea - but by answering questions if I know the answer, giving them the url to paragon wiki, badge-hunters and the coh forums.

I can't do anything about the screaming children, or the wife who's tired of hubby sitting behind a screen in love with his female avatar. But, I do think we can all help our fellow players improve - if they want to.

I spend a good bit of time in these forums - sometimes I'll ask a question, sometimes I'll answer one - (yesterday I showed I was horribly forgetful about the properties of multiplication, much to my dismay) - but I read them all and learn a little bit here and there.

I know not everyone has that kind of time. But, if I can do something to make what little time my fellow players have better, I want to do that - most of the time. I gotta take care of my admin stuff first, tho.

I ran an DFB when I saw a player I recognized looking for members. He had his kid and was looking for help. I obliged and found it was an enjoyable struggle and had to rely on thinking. The funny part was that the kid was fine, but the other PUGs needed basic schooling. tried teaching pulling, resting, and generally targeting strategies. The team had some holes as people dropped as we loaded in.
The idea of coaching on UIs is great. I think there is a whole crop of potentially enjoyable players that need coaching or they will just be the roadblocks vets think of them as.

Damnit! I just spent an hour writing a post on how to modify your screen with screenshot samples and Firefox or the forums ate it!

An earlier poster mentioned how crazy it would be to speed the Posi TFs, so I thought I'd mention: on Saturday night I did a "speed" Posi 1 in 32m 33s and a "speed" Posi 2 in 39m 36s. I played a level 11 fire/time controller with no stealth and mostly training enhancements.

As a lowbie, I would've been fine with a clear-all TF for the exp, but the TF leader wanted speed and I was able to work with that, despite being conspicuously non-soft-capped on defense. It helped that the average player skill on the team was very high; also, one of the players did have stealth and TP, and would actually TP teammates to objectives. I also made frequent trips to contacts between missions to buy Lucks. I actually would say there was a good amount of teamwork on this team; I definitely felt that my controls, buffs and debuffs were necessary support for the damage dealers on the team. And I still got to level 15 by the end.

This is an example of how I customize my screen:



This set up is optimized for my play style and limitations. This may not suit you, but I hope it gives you ideas.

I see the center and right side of my monitor best, upper left is the most difficult. Thus the upper left is where I put things to reference, but not see constantly. I can see the lower left hazily and movement there (IE: new chat) tells me I have something new to read.

Specific customizations:
Instructions how to do this yourself

Either Map or League is pinned in the upper left corner of the screen where I can reference it at need. HP and target are mid right side so I can see them.
The red and blue dots on an UI allow you to tack and untack. You can drag the UI where you want it by click + hold the left mouse button down and drag.

Text size is #15 font.
Options > General > Chat > Font Size

Chat tabs are reorganized.
Right click on tab > Edit tab > Click on the channel(s) you want to remove/add > do it > click OK to save. To add a new tab right click on the chat box (not tab) and Add New Tab, then modify as above.

I use binds for changing channels. For example, LB is on the 'b' key.
/bind b beginchat /send "LB"

Power trays are organized so that my actual mouse movement is limited to a small area. I use #s 2-4 for my most commonly cast items, 5-6 for the frequently cast, and 1 for Mystic Fortune. I buff teams by clicking on the team menu and hitting the #.
Options > General > Miscelaneous > Lock Powers in tray > Disable

I've enabled reticles so that I can see other players hps/power easily even when not on their team/league, and it makes it easier to target and buff/heal. I like to see titles, etc and enabled those too.
Options > General > Reticle > enable whichever you want.

I also use the player rating system and always show it on the monitor. This makes it easy to keep track of people like raid leaders, SG mates, my mom, etc.
Options > General > Reticle > Player Rating > Show always
To add a player rating click on the player > right click > add note
Your computer will remember this for you. If you wipe the HD, reinstall COH, or get a new comp you'll have to add new notes

If there are any questions I'll do my best. Please note that this is how I have my mouse set up, if yours is different you may need to experiment a bit, but the theory is sound.

Interesting set up steele!


Just a little extra to add.


Once you finally get the set up the way you want it,
type out:

/wdwsave

Then, each time you bring on a new toon, type
/wdwload

Will save lots of click and drag time.

That's all very useful information, Steele. However, the most important part to note is that Mystic Fortune is infact, #1.

Thanks for the tip, Ukase! Setting up each character gets old.

If you look closely you can see that I have American Valor and Ukase 'starred' so I can spot them in the crowd, and that I've targetted someone off the league menu up on top of the ship for a drive by rez and buff. I also have my most commonly used attacks in a 2x3 grid for easy click-click-click.

Just for the fun of it... this is what my UI lay-out looks like for the majority of my characters:



League or Team is top left, Nav and targeting is top center, character info is top right along with the mini-map, chat is bottom left and pets are on the right side. My main powers are in the three trays on the bottom right with the most frequently used in #1 and #2, while often used temps and Incarnate powers are in the trays bottom-center. (Kestral actually has one more tray there than most of the others. She has several "alternate" iPowers and a big collection of Lore pets that I switch frequently, so all the options are there. The pets even got a tray of their own... That way I don't have to stop and drag the active one into place every time I swap.)

All of my windows are at 65% size and 15% background opacity. When I'm soloing, I always close down the team/league window, and often the mini-map. If I'm feeling anti-social, the chat window goes too.

The exceptions to that general lay-out are my Masterminds. They have a very similar, though much "busier" layout, since I control their pets with a combination of clicks and keybinds.

Here's Hanano's:



She still has the two center trays for temps and iPowers, but adds four more for her various pets. (Yeah, I know it looks confussing, but combining the different click commands and the key-binds is what allows me keep her ninja on such a tight leash-) Her Confuse Protection monitor is above the chat box rather than the center trays to keep it from getting in the way of my "line of sight".

Again, the windows are all at 65% size and 15% opacity to give me as much of a clear view of the action as possible, and like the others, I tend to turn off a few of those windows when I'm alone.

Aside from the Masterminds, a couple others have minor differences... On Karasu (my Empathy defender) I keep the team window in the position typically given to Pets if I'm on a single team. If I'm on a league, the League window goes bottom center right above the supplimental/iPower trays, so I can keep a closer eye on who needs help. My two bi-form Peacebringers have shape-shifting key-binds that switch their #1 trays to the trays containing their form-specific powers automatically, and another to move them back and return them to human.

Brightfires! You just made my day with that post! I had no idea I could make those panes smaller!

Now, I might be able to see things a little more clearly.