I'm on my Mac so I dont have access to Mids at the moment but 2 recharge in hasten at +5 should put you around 99%. You won't have domination up consistently without the use of the red side alignment power. (fury?) Which case when it does drop, hopefully while not during a fight, you can throw it back up. Than again if you see it about to expire best bet is use that AOE hold and than pop it back on if you are in a fight. 
My build is currently just shy of perma hasten and ends up being able to use domination a good couple of times in a row and than eventually drops. Granted if I was better at activating hasten instantly when it was ready it would prolly last longer. (Domination is on auto) I will say tho that my current build does not use Spiritual alpha either and with one more purple and if I 4 slot hasten with +5 recharges it will be up again in 117s, so it would be perma. So it is possible to have perma hasten without spiritual.
If you were able to post your build than myself and others could probably provide better help.
If you have left over Paragon Points you could buy enhancement boosters. 5 invested in one of Hasten's two slots roughly equals one extra slot. You can cut corners on a few other powers this way.
Spiritual doesnt work with Domination anyway (although Ageless Destiny does).
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In DBZ there are three levels of the Super Saiyan (Fusions and DBGT don't count). In CoX there are three stages of Permadom.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
I have a build set up thats pretty tight. There is not much in it I want to change. Also, I would prefer to get something besides Spiritual for my Alpha slot.
The Build has 85% global Recharge, and has Hasten. But of course this means Hasten is not perma. Am I going to fall out of Perma regular? I can get Hasten to 99% recharge easily, but I would prefer to just sit at 95% using 2 Enh instead of cramming 3 down on it. (or would 2 at +5 still hit 99% or so?) Anyways, even at 99% this puts me short of Perma Hasten, and I am worried that puts me short of true Perma Dom. Any experts out there able to answer if this works from experience? The only way I can think to work it out is a long string of algebra. |
1. Permadom 1: 70% recharge from IO and 3 slotted hasten. Expect power crashes.
2. Ascended Permadom or Permadom 2: 90% global recharge from IO and 3 to 6 slotted hasten is the minimum for this, but you get permadom and permahasten. Expect fewer power crashes.
3. Super Permadom 3 also at times referred to as "True Permadom": 125% recharge bonus from IO's and you can throw hasten away.
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Also referred to as "Wish I slotted defense when I reached sufficient levels of recharge with Hasten".
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Originally Posted by Nericus
3. Super Permadom 3 also at times referred to as "True Permadom": 125% recharge bonus from IO's and you can throw hasten away.
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I modified the build, and actually like the modification, though it took me two hours work to do it the way I wanted. I do not plan any other changes to the build.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
In CoX there are three stages of Permadom.
1. Permadom 1: 70% recharge from IO and 3 slotted hasten. Expect power crashes. 2. Ascended Permadom or Permadom 2: 90% global recharge from IO and 3 to 6 slotted hasten is the minimum for this, but you get permadom and permahasten. Expect fewer power crashes. 3. Super Permadom 3 also at times referred to as "True Permadom": 125% recharge bonus from IO's and you can throw hasten away. |
so, now I am sitting at 100 global recharge from I/Os, and Hasten with two lvl 50 Invention Recharge enhancers, which I plan to +5 each of. Will this set me up for Perma-dom, or am I still just a sliver short?
i may still go Spiritual, which of course would solve the Hasten perma problem, and i believe easily Perma me. But I wanted the option of more range or more damage in my alpha preferably more range.
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With just 70% global rech and 95% recharge on hasten you're at permadom... Barely.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
The Build has 85% global Recharge, and has Hasten. But of course this means Hasten is not perma. Am I going to fall out of Perma regular? I can get Hasten to 99% recharge easily, but I would prefer to just sit at 95%
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Leave domination on auto-cast and if you're pretty good about clicking hasten as soon as it goes down (or you can alternate putting hasten and domination in auto-cast), and if you're not animating some other power when it's time to hit hasten or dominate (gotta watch the blinkies and pause a bit when it's time), and if you don't get hit by too many slows (damn arachnos) which is not so hard since you're usually locking down everything... In those conditions you can keep your domination up consistently.
But as you can probably tell from that description, it requires paying a lot of attention and that can be especially tough in the middle of tense combat.
My permadom, however, only has 72.5% global recharge, so barely above the minimum, and 99% on hasten... With just that tiny difference it's very rare for my domination to drop... That happening either takes me forgetting to hit hasten for a looong time or being covered in web grenades for quite a while. And while I have the +10% global recharge from Time Lord's boon (going to 82.5%), it feels like my domination will never drop.
So, with 85% global and 95% on hasten I don't think you'd have much trouble keeping domination up, either (I've played my brother's permadom which has around that much recharge and keeping domination up is quite easy).
I would still recommend you grab the Frenzy alignment power anyway. I really enjoy starting my play session with a full domination bar already. And it helps if you get distracted (some of those looong cutscenes seem to really throw my timing off, too) or if you can't avoid enough slows that domination ends up dropping anyway. The damage bonus is just gravy. I really don't see why I would play a dominator without Frenzy if I can play one that has it (then again I mostly solo or play in small teams of people I know and the only times I look for groups is for WSTs or iTrials, so I don't have to worry about the infamous redside team scarcity, don't even know whether it's exagerated or not)...
I'm also of the opinion that, once you got enough recharge to comfortably stay at permadom WITH hasten, further investment in recharge is not as good as diversifying, probably going for some defenses. Locking down everything is all well and good when it works, but for the stubborn and dangerous foes that take a while to get there, having some defense so you need to eat/carry less purples to be at the softcap really makes a difference.
Playing CoH with Gestures
Thx for the insight. With 100% global and Hasten and 99% rech on Hasten itself I should sit at just over the bobble on PermaDom unless I get slammed hard.
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Go Intuition Radial, get both! |
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
But I wanted the option of more range or more damage in my alpha preferably more range.
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I would also never give up Hasten on a dominator even if I didn't need it to be permadom. In fact if you have enough recharge for permadom without hasten you also have permadom with hasten, and I can't imagine anybody skipping what is basically an autopower that gives +70% recharge.
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Looks up from polishing the 8 Mo badges my SP3 has, blinks at the quoted statement, then goes back to polishing.
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Originally Posted by ketch
Also referred to as "Wish I slotted defense when I reached sufficient levels of recharge with Hasten".
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I said with 125% Global IO recharge that you CAN throw out hasten, I didn't say that I did, nor did I say you should. Hasten still has its uses.
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Originally Posted by Machariel
Go Intuition Radial, get both!
I would also never give up Hasten on a dominator even if I didn't need it to be permadom. In fact if you have enough recharge for permadom without hasten you also have permadom with hasten, and I can't imagine anybody skipping what is basically an autopower that gives +70% recharge. |
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No lie! I am in the process of re-working several perma-hasten builds back down to "only" 75% to 85% global recharge with 3-slotted hasten. It is enough. Everything else gets shifted to defense. I end up being much better off for my personal playstyle when using this approach.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Also referred to as "Wish I slotted defense when I reached sufficient levels of recharge with Hasten".
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Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
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That speaks more to what a team can do than the accomplishments of a single dominator. And, of course, the newer Master's badges don't even require you to play all that well... you can repeat the task with a different objective each time until you've met the requirements for the badge.|
Originally Posted by Nericus
Looks up from polishing the 8 Mo badges my SP3 has, blinks at the quoted statement, then goes back to polishing.
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Nor does it alter the fact that there are diminishing returns on recharge, i.e. moving from 130% to 140% recharge will bear greater reductions in recharge than moving from 180% to 190%.
It's not that I think perma-dom without Hasten isn't a lofty or impressive goal, but I think your description makes it a bigger deal than it really is and ignores the potency of perma-dom with softcapped defense.
Shocked as heck that the ATOs are on the Wentworth's market!!! I am able to squeeze on a full 6 set, shifting aThunderstike to replace Executioners contract in Snipe. The whole build is better (of course!) and i gain a little ranged defense and total out global recharge at 108.75% + Hasten. I should not bobble off Perma at this point. Good times. Now to play test.
The existence of Recharge debuffs should be enough to convince most players skipping Hasten is usually a losing deal on any build. Suffice it to say this: Hasten in some situations gives a bigger buffer against Recharge debuffs than some actual armor resistance powers do. A 70 point difference in Recharge is pretty significant considering the debuff floor is -75%.
I agree that slotting Recharge at the expense of all else is usually a sub-optimal deal. I might make an exception for some Illusion Controllers (but only some).
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Just want to challenge this notion. On a high-infl build, throw in Time Lord with purples (incl ATO) and getting permadon without haste is very doable. Your -recharge concern can be offset by adding force feedback to a staple power or two, or consider how often you team with someone that will +recharge. And lest we forget that by not having haste we free up a power and maybe a slot or two. I think your claim that not having haste for ANY build is a bit, well, hasty.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
The existence of Recharge debuffs should be enough to convince most players skipping Hasten is usually a losing deal on any build. Suffice it to say this: Hasten in some situations gives a bigger buffer against Recharge debuffs than some actual armor resistance powers do. A 70 point difference in Recharge is pretty significant considering the debuff floor is -75%.
I agree that slotting Recharge at the expense of all else is usually a sub-optimal deal. I might make an exception for some Illusion Controllers (but only some). |
I am also not a fan of extremes
CoH
Cathodian (50 Rad/Rad)
Archanix (50 Ill/FF)
Dr. Deadface (Current: 40 Rad/MM)
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Well, that's why Tex has been careful to use the word "usually" throughout his post, including "skipping Hasten is usually a losing deal on any build", i.e. not in every case but in most with room for unusual scenarios.|
Originally Posted by Cathodian
Just want to challenge this notion. On a high-infl build, throw in Time Lord with purples (incl ATO) and getting permadon without haste is very doable. Your -recharge concern can be offset by adding force feedback to a staple power or two, or consider how often you team with someone that will +recharge. And lest we forget that by not having haste we free up a power and maybe a slot or two. I think your claim that not having haste for ANY build is a bit, well, hasty.
I am also not a fan of extremes |
I wouldn't even be that diplomatic about the matter. A single power that provides 70% recharge opens up numerous slotting options that allow you to pursue goals in conjunction with permadom, most notably soft capped lethal/smashing or ranged defense. Skipping hasten requires you to either invest in the most expensive IOs (purples) to reach those same goals or to eschew them all together. It isn't simply a matter of getting permadom. It's a matter of what you can achieve in other aspects and still obtain permadom.
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Originally Posted by Cathodian
Just want to challenge this notion. On a high-infl build, throw in Time Lord with purples (incl ATO) and getting permadon without haste is very doable. Your -recharge concern can be offset by adding force feedback to a staple power or two, or consider how often you team with someone that will +recharge. And lest we forget that by not having haste we free up a power and maybe a slot or two. I think your claim that not having haste for ANY build is a bit, well, hasty.
I am also not a fan of extremes |
I did not say "It is not possible for any build to achieve permadom without Hasten."
In any case, the reason you want high recharge is not just so you can get to permadom. It's because on a Controller or Dominator all of your primary is heavily tied to recharge rate, and the more you can stockpile with fewer slots usually the better off you are. Even if you have very good recharge already, an enemy with -Recharge powers can change all that. And getting very good recharge but using up a lot of slots to do it is also often not ideal when you could have grabbed +70% recharge from using two or three.
Adding Force Feedback doesn't fix this, because you could have Force Feedback and still take Hasten. They are not mutually exclusive.
Teaming with someone with +Recharge also is irrelevant. If we're going to go there, we could just say "Always team with Defenders" and then you have no need of IOs at all.
So, while I think it's possible to have a decent build without Hasten, when it comes to Controllers and Dominators this is the sort of thing where I want to see the actual build. It's easy to claim such builds exist, much harder to actually demonstrate them in detail. And the ones that do exist are highly debatable in terms of efficiency and in almost all cases the sort of extremes you say you are not a fan of.
Perhaps it is not optimal, but I can say that you can comfortably achieve S/L softcap and permadon without Haste. In most cases to do so you'll just be taking Frozen Armor or Scorpion Shield. It may not be optimal but it will certainly be decent unless your definition of decent is different than mine which could be the case.
Apologies for the misquote btw :P
CoH
Cathodian (50 Rad/Rad)
Archanix (50 Ill/FF)
Dr. Deadface (Current: 40 Rad/MM)
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With that level of perma dom, all my abilities (I have multiple doms with it) also recharge so fast that I don't need to worry about getting hit. My doms can pretty much lock things down within seconds period.|
Originally Posted by ketch
Also referred to as "Wish I slotted defense when I reached sufficient levels of recharge with Hasten".
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Perma dom at that level pretty much means my dom is facing statues most of the time.
YMMV
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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My mileage does indeed vary. With a 16 target cap and 95% accuracy on common every spawn controls, there are times when controls simply can't contain all the mobs whether due to over-aggro, ambushes, or tightly knit mobs. Running solo at +4/x8, you'll quickly notice how often a single uncontrolled boss can ruin your fun with 2-3 lucky shots. Defense helps provide a buffer against that.|
Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
With that level of perma dom, all my abilities (I have multiple doms with it) also recharge so fast that I don't need to worry about getting hit. My doms can pretty much lock things down within seconds period.
Perma dom at that level pretty much means my dom is facing statues most of the time. YMMV |
There is no doubt that perma-doms are certainly survivable, but perma-doms with softcapped defenses are markedly more survivable. Also, as noted before there are diminishing returns on recharge buffs.
For a concrete example, let's look at some powers from Mind Control at three different levels of global recharge. We'll assume 66.6% (two SOs worth) of recharge in each power; that's a middling value between what some commonly used sets offer. I've tossed in Stalagmites for an example of a more common every spawn control.
Code:
BASE 0% 145% 175% 205% Dominate 8 4.8 2.57 2.34 2.15 Confuse 8 4.8 2.57 2.34 2.15 Mass Hypnosis 45 27.01 14.44 13.17 12.11 Terrify 40 24.01 12.84 11.71 10.76 Total Domination 240 144.06 77.02 70.26 64.59 Mass Confusion 240 144.06 77.02 70.26 64.59 Stalagmites 90 54.02 28.88 26.35 24.22
Interesting data chart thanks. So, based on your math (looks right, so lets call it 100% correct) there is an obvious decline in return after the 145% global recharge mark. But the chart is a few fixed data points, and therefore let's delve between the points.
So, considering a build with Hasten, what is the floor for comfortable global recharge so you are PermaDom, and what is the mark you want to shoot for to be "comfortable" before you turn your attention to other build goals?
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+1. Seriously|
Originally Posted by ketch
My mileage does indeed vary. With a 16 target cap and 95% accuracy on common every spawn controls, there are times when controls simply can't contain all the mobs whether due to over-aggro, ambushes, or tightly knit mobs. Running solo at +4/x8, you'll quickly notice how often a single uncontrolled boss can ruin your fun with 2-3 lucky shots. Defense helps provide a buffer against that.
There is no doubt that perma-doms are certainly survivable, but perma-doms with softcapped defenses are markedly more survivable. Also, as noted before there are diminishing returns on recharge buffs. For a concrete example, let's look at some powers from Mind Control at three different levels of global recharge. We'll assume 66.6% (two SOs worth) of recharge in each power; that's a middling value between what some commonly used sets offer. I've tossed in Stalagmites for an example of a more common every spawn control. Code:
BASE 0% 145% 175% 205% Dominate 8 4.8 2.57 2.34 2.15 Confuse 8 4.8 2.57 2.34 2.15 Mass Hypnosis 45 27.01 14.44 13.17 12.11 Terrify 40 24.01 12.84 11.71 10.76 Total Domination 240 144.06 77.02 70.26 64.59 Mass Confusion 240 144.06 77.02 70.26 64.59 Stalagmites 90 54.02 28.88 26.35 24.22 |
Being permadom is nice. Having great recharge is nice. But there are times when you also want a little defense, I find.
In the past you couldn't really get everything, but in today's game you really can have it all. It is worth giving up a little recharge for that extra defense.
"Hi, my name is Ail. I make people sick."
A partial selection from my 50's on Freedom: Ail = Ice/Traps, Luck = Street Justice/Super Reflexes Stalker, Mist = Bane, Pixy = Trick Arrow/Archery, Pure = Gravity/Energy, Smoke = Fire/Fire Dominator
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If I've setup my spreadsheet right (which I'm a bit uncertain about, calculating the average buff from Hasten is a bit difficult) the very, very bottom floor for permadom is 66.5% with 95% enhancement in Hasten. However, I wouldn't call that comfortable in any sense. Domination would recharge in 88.29 seconds. You would just be able to activate it in time, as in Domination-bar-drops-and-shoots-back-up close. A 75% global bonus would let you sit in more comfortable territory with Domination recharging in 84.40 seconds. However, you'll still have to watch Domination and Hasten very closely and you may occasionally have a crash due to debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Centurion
Interesting data chart thanks. So, based on your math (looks right, so lets call it 100% correct) there is an obvious decline in return after the 145% global recharge mark. But the chart is a few fixed data points, and therefore let's delve between the points.
So, considering a build with Hasten, what is the floor for comfortable global recharge so you are PermaDom, and what is the mark you want to shoot for to be "comfortable" before you turn your attention to other build goals? |
I personally find about 85% global recharge with Hasten 2-slotted with level 50 IOs (155% recharge with Hasten active) around the bottom of my tolerance for maintaining Domination and Hasten.
I want to briefly mention another interesting break point; at 110% global recharge you can perma-Hasten with 95% enhancement. Once you've got that there's not much point going beyond unless you really want to dedicate fewer slots to Hasten. With perma-hasten you'd sit at 180% recharge and Domination would recharge in 71.43 seconds.
I have a build set up thats pretty tight. There is not much in it I want to change. Also, I would prefer to get something besides Spiritual for my Alpha slot.
The Build has 85% global Recharge, and has Hasten. But of course this means Hasten is not perma. Am I going to fall out of Perma regular? I can get Hasten to 99% recharge easily, but I would prefer to just sit at 95% using 2 Enh instead of cramming 3 down on it. (or would 2 at +5 still hit 99% or so?) Anyways, even at 99% this puts me short of Perma Hasten, and I am worried that puts me short of true Perma Dom.
Any experts out there able to answer if this works from experience? The only way I can think to work it out is a long string of algebra.