Drastic Revamp to Pool Powers and Epics

Rangle M. Down pretty much said that, and I said I'd probably be down with an approach like that, provided they also lowered the levels so you're not waiting until level 35 for your Sonic attack, in that example.

Yup, and certainly, as time went on, they could gradually add more powers, or not, as they saw how things were going.

More pools would always be in demand as new sets came, as Blasters may want some basic Staff attacks for instance.

But to start, they should cover the major themes for each AT's epics: Guns, Swords, Ice, Fire, Electricity, Radiation, Psionics, Energy, Unarmed Fighting, Gadgets etc. Many ATs have some of these already, obviously.


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I think he only meant on terms of attack. Like a DP/ blaster taking a few MA/ attacks.

And that is a perfect example of why we need something like what we're discussing.

It's not about exactly copying existing characters. I use existing characters as examples because often real comic super heroes and villains do not fit within the rigid confines the current system allows.

And _Pine_ overlooks that even most of the Freedom Phalanx, heck most of NPC characters in the game, are strong homages to existing characters. Just ask Tony Kord, Peter Kent and Dr. Stephen Fayte.

For THAT matter, most of the NPC characters don't fit within the confines of the current powers system either.


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And bacon is tasty. What's your point? Nobody is asking for that.

You seem to be implying the aim is to give any and all powers to players regardless of the AT. It's been clarified and explained numerous times that's not the case.
Stop trying to strawman.

Or perhaps you're suggesting giving players access to any powers that that don't currently have access too will automatically make them overpowered?

That assertion doesn't hold water. How is a Scrapper getting Dual Wield any worse than a Scrapper getting Fire Blast, when DW does a more resisted damage type and also has worse damage per cast time than FB does?



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Except, Blasters can get Holds and Immobs and Sleeps now, and it doesn't put out Controllers of the same level. They can also get basic shields like Temporary Invulnerability and Fire Shield. They can even get a few debuffs.

And Scrappers can get both Nemesis Staff and Blackwand at level 1, and guess what? The world didn't end!

If we go with Rangle's suggested approach of creating more epic pools, we can give players more flavors to choose from of the kinds of powers they can already get, and maybe see about making some of the less potent/disruptive ones available earlier than level 35.


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Well, this is what Kick and Punch and several other Pool powers are. Watered down versions of existing attacks. They are also pretty much universally skipped, because in order to make them less powerful than the version the "real" AT gets you end up with a power that just isn't that great.

So, yes, it is technically fairly easy to create a Sonic Blast that does half as much damage as regular Sonic Blast. Whether you would still want it afterward is a very different question, and the reason I said you would probably not want it after you saw it.

I am fine with more APPs and even APPs that open at earlier level (though I would MUCH prefer the level 26, 32, 35, and 38 powers be lowered from their current levels to 22, 24, 30, and 32).

And I agree with the thought too. More epics, more powers, more varied choices. It can be done and it would be amazing.

But the posts I was getting at in the thread is plain as day: It *won't* happen.

If the devs can't be arsed to give Blasters a Psi Mastery epic, Stalkers/Scrappers an Electric Epic, Defenders a Fire epic, Controllers a Dark epic...just to round out the fact they have similar themes in their primaries/secondaries, what makes you think we'll get Sonic, Dual Pistols, Katana, or some other nonsense within the next 5 years? Or ever since it'd take so long you might as well forget it?

Worse yet, the desired goal of the change you're aiming with this change would alter the very fabric of the system itself, you may as well just make a new game.

But Kick and Punch are generic powers. I think the particular point of adding such options (and more early on) is that it would improve customization/make characters more unique. Punch and Kick are generic, but whipping out an axe or ball lightning fist has more flare.

That's why I kinda suggesting just making an AT pool of a dozen or so powers where, as a Defender, you can yank out a 'signature move' (relative for Defenders) like Fire Sword or Crane Kick (some other Defenders might grab Shadow Maul or Clobber). You'd only be able to pick that one move but you don't *need* a whole set of powers that are all lynchpinned together by theme.

But since no one commented on the suggestion, I figure no one likes it. Makes perfect sense to me though. You make a Batman-esque character, you don't need a 'Batarrang' pool, just *a* batarrang power. Black Canary doesn't need a sonic blast set, just *a* sonic blast type attack. Superman doesn't need an eye beam set, he just need *an* eye beam power (technically, Superman needs a Superman pool since his powers are all over the place...Whirlwind, super speed, eye beams, cold breath, flight, super flight, etc...but that's beside the point...).

I'd think the trouble lies in what you'd put in every AT pool and what types of powers wouldn't be allowed and for those powers, what would be decent stand-ins in their place. Just picking from some of my current characters:

Kat/SR Scrapper- Gale from Storm Summoning would be his signature ability.

Spines/DA Stalker- Needs some kind of psionic power...an attack, a control a debuff...something psionic...currently using Presence pool as a stand-in but something ontop of that would be lovely.

Various Doms- Need a sword or katana for some of their themes.

Peacebringer- Mine makes use of as many crafted temp powers as he can but Propel would fit perfectly with his theme.

Fire/Shield Brute- The character himself took on a life of his own...while his fire/SD version encapsulates one aspect of him, Stone Armor, Stone Melee and Super Strength could also work. Any 'spectral' or 'bone' powers, necromancy too but only if it involved dragons...breath attacks of the Ice, Fire, Dark, Lightning, Air, Toxic, Sonic variety...so any powers that have any of those themes would be scooped up by this character or any sideways remakes.

Anyway, it's rather pointless of me to ramble on. Not sure if others have the same view and maybe I'm looking at the OP the wrong way. More APPs are good...personally, I'd prefer more Patron Pools. Themed powers after in-game NPCs have the advantage of using flashier effects (the APPs are pretty boring...Ghost Widow's hold is awesome though) and if you wanted to make a character whose an ex-PPD or an active member of the Carnival of Light, a pool for that (or one-off powers with that theme) is far more flexible, IMO.


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tl;dr: I agree. Your suggestion would be nice but won't happen (at least in the near future). If we got such attention, AT pools and some themed PPPs for later would be better, IMO.

If people want this to happen, they need to make it known to the devs. Get it in their face at the Pummit. They keep boasting about how much a success Freedom was, they can put some of that money back into giving players some more freedom in character building. And they will, if people bug them enough about it.


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Actually, it wouldn't be technically hard, and it wouldn't require a ton of resources to create. The real problem is doing this sort of thing cuts to some foundational assumptions about how archetypes and powersets work, something a lot of different devs have different and strong opinions about.

In other words, this is the classic example of a change that would get stuck in committee.

Maybe it's not always a bad thing to have someone with absolute power and a strong sense of vision.





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I have no problem with more APPs. However, I want to clarify that when I said across the board signature powers was "dangerous," what I was referring to is what might be called the "Hasten Problem."

Hasten is themed to look like you have lit your hands on fire. Costume is one of the most important things to me. However, I will never, ever, skip Hasten on some characters. I will stand there and look ridiculous with my Ice themed character's hands burning orange, because skipping it is build suicide (or at least generally unproductive) for a Controller or Dominator.

Unless the powers you are describing all do virtually the same thing, then "theme" is actually at greater risk from implementing this sort of system without extreme care. Because the moment one of the "signature" powers stands above the rest, everyone will go with that power, and a bunch of people will be upset that their Fire/Fire Blaster now has to have a war mace throwing power in order to be competitive with other players.

That is why I said this sort of system requires an entirely new game. It is not that it is technically hard to code a new spell or power, but that the repurcussions of doing so are very large.

In the past I've suggested that the developers sell us new APPs, as long as they are well thought out and reasonably balanced (ie better balanced than the last proliferation, which somehow resulted in Dominators having Sleet).

Its always a good thing when its me, and never a good thing when its somebody else.

You said "me" meaning you. The correct answer was me.



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The correct answer was me, when it was me saying me. Now that its you saying me, the correct answer is no longer me.

+1 Go play CO if that is really what you want. I think, however, that many people would be surprised how sucky choose-any-power actually is. This is because it leads to all powers being the same for balance reasons.