Presumption and Despair
For my specific suggestions I urge everyone to take the time to sort through my previous posts.
But, seriously, do you really want to do that?
What everyone needs to realize is that, ultimately, only the Devs can "Fix" Khelds. All of our comments, all of our complaints and all of our criticisms change nothing. That is, of course, unless the Devs decide to act upon them.
Now, this does not mean that I discourage community discussions. Comment on other peoples' comments, complain until your heart is content, criticize as constructively or as destructively as you want.
After all, it is your right.
(But, just because it is your right does not make you right in doing so.
)
I ask, "On which suggestions should the Devs act? Whom should they please? And Whom should they disappoint?"
Vauluur raises the negative, "What WON'T "Fix" Khelds?"
Others present the positive, "What WILL "Fix" Khelds?"
This day, I offer the solution, "I WILL "Fix" Khelds."
Take a moment and let that sink in...
Who is on board with this suggestion?
Who believes that I am able to effectively convey all of our real problems to the Devs?
Who trusts that I am able to fully convince them to implement all of the best solutions?
Who has faith that I am able to be the infallible voice of the people?
You see the obvious, though often overlooked, point is simply this, there is not a unified voice ushering forth from this community.
There never has been.
It is likely that there never will be.
And without that voice, without that leadership, without everyone agreeing upon and embracing the embodiment of the Kheld ideal then there is bound to be disappointment, displeasure and disagreements.
In another time and another place I offered these words. May they encourage you all the more for we now know that we are closer to that land than we once were.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?p=3801318
AIB
You heard it here first! Vote for Honest Abe, the man with the plan!
Abe, you have got my vote, and you make a very strong point. We don't really have a unified opinion here. On a thread the other day, i was disappointed to see all of our forum greats bickering. :[
Aside from that; I believe that
- Removing or converting knockback entirely will never improve peacebringers because they are a different AT then 'Shades so they should have different secondary abilities that require a different playstyle.
- Allowing slotting of the form to affect the form powers themselves will not improve Kheldians, that mechanic would be drastically different from the other ATs in the game. It would lead to over-slotting, for example, if i placed 5 slots into nova's toggle, then i'd be getting the benefit of 25 slots in the powers themselves (not including the inherent slots.) That's a no-no.
- Removing forms will NEVER improve Kheldians, it's their trademark.
I'm not trying to start an argument, or join in on one. So please don't quote my opinion and tell me why I'm wrong. I'm just listing my feelings about Kheldians, that's all. No offense intended
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You forgot the peacebringer symbol D: ! Blasphemy i say! Blasphemy!
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
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I am beginning to wonder if the issue some people are having with playing their Kheldian is the same one it was years ago with some ie. the build and tactics being used.
I can solo AV's on both my WS and PB as have several others mentioned in other threads. Where is the gap in our performance vs the people that can't even do well in regular COX content? Temps and accolades alone won't do it and I solidly don't think it is the AT.
I will admit that the recent changes to Khelds made them even better than before for me as I can as stated take on AV's where before it was not something I could do.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
Flatulence.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
Abe, you have got my vote, and you make a very strong point. We don't really have a unified opinion here. On a thread the other day, i was disappointed to see all of our forum greats bickering. :[
Aside from that; I believe that
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- Well yeah. No one wants Peacebringers to get the Warshade's slow secondary. We just want it to be Knockdown instead of Knockback. It makes no sense for an AT with higher survivability potential than many Tank sets to need KB for mitigation while knocking things out of range of it's own attacks.
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- None of the (good) suggestions called for that. We just want the animations sped up and we want toggles to suppress (remain turned on but not affect us while shape shifted) and then resume working as normal while in human form without having to retoggle.
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Oh! Very nice.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
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Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
You heard it here first! Vote for Honest Abe, the man with the plan!
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As I've related before...being Triform...I think that "Change" is still the best platform from which to run.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
Abe, you have got my vote, and you make a very strong point. We don't really have a unified opinion here. On a thread the other day, i was disappointed to see all of our forum greats bickering. :[
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That's why i said "entirely" silly. Converting some powers to KD would be awesome. :P The OP only asked for what wouldn't fix Khelds. If it asked for what do you think will fix them, I would say convert to KD in some powers and blablabla. |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Well yeah. No one wants Peacebringers to get the Warshade's slow secondary. We just want it to be Knockdown instead of Knockback. It makes no sense for an AT with higher survivability potential than many Tank sets to need KB for mitigation while knocking things out of range of it's own attacks.[/LIST]
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
None of the (good) suggestions called for that. We just want the animations sped up and we want toggles to suppress (remain turned on but not affect us while shape shifted) and then resume working as normal while in human form without having to retoggle.[/LIST]
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Which is what I said silly! heheAnd to the Great A.I.B. !
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Originally Posted by AIB
Oh! Very nice.
Are we still going with the "Abe is able!" slogan? As I've related before...being Triform...I think that "Change" is still the best platform from which to run. Thank you noble constituent. I am confident that my points mirror the opinions of the majority of those noble Kheldians scattered throughout this great land. |
Your welcome good friend, to arms! For a greater future awaits our alien race.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
That's why i said "entirely" silly. Converting some powers to KD would be awesome. :P The OP only asked for what wouldn't fix Khelds. If it asked for what do you think will fix them, I would say convert solar flare to Knockdown and all that jazz
Yeah I know, but again, he asked for what wouldn't fix Khelds. Which is what I said! hehe |
In case you didn't notice, this is now an AIB Campaign Thread. I was simply voicing what the candidate needs to advocate in order to earn my delegates.
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I did notice |
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
In case you didn't notice, this is now an AIB Campaign Thread. I was simply voicing what the candidate needs to advocate in order to earn my delegates.
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haha and well said! Vote-Able Abe everyone!
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The Devs.
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
What WON'T "Fix" Khelds?
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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lol|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The Devs.
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This!
Seriously, WS are perfectly fine.
The only thing PBs needs are KB toned down A LOT to be KD. We all know why, that horse has been beated to death.
Another ultimate "buff" I would like to see for Kheldians is removing the stupid travel power restrictions.
I want a flying WS. And not one in a magic carpet or jetpack.
Also, PBs should be able to teleport if they want to.
SoA can get very nice numbers from leadership pool TWICE.
Show Kheldians some love, give them the toogles, KD, travel powers and sashes they deserve, please.
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Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
In case you didn't notice, this is now an AIB Campaign Thread. I was simply voicing what the candidate needs to advocate in order to earn my delegates.
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As I related to you earlier, I have chosen Serene Servant as my running mate. I know her to be a very capable Kheldian and am confident of her ability to connect with a large and important segment of our population.
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Originally Posted by Bionut911
I did notice
haha and well said! Vote-Able Abe everyone! |
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Originally Posted by Vauluur
In the interest of approaching the issue from a somewhat different (and perhaps less aggressive) mindset, I decided to create a thread for players to post what they do not think will fix Kheldians...
The floor now belongs to post #2 |
I know what you are thinking...
"I said the floor now belongs to post # 2."
I did not say,
"The thread now belongs to post # 2.
" And while I do not apologize for sharing my thoughts, I do wish to turn this thread back over to you.
"What WON'T "Fix" Khelds?"
1. Presumption and Despair
2. We won't (The Devs must make the changes)
3. Not having a unified vision.
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This.|
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
Seriously, WS are perfectly fine.
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What I am afraid of is that we WILL get the devs to suddenly care about Khelds and take an "in-depth" look at them, only to have them decide to overhaul everything and completely change everything I like about my Warshade.
What won't "fix" my Warshade?
Messing around with his Stygian Circle or Eclipse powers.
Seriously... We've already had one "enhancement diversification." Let's not beg for another.
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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While overall I am obviously very happy with the concept/mechanics/synergy of Warshades there are some issues that need to be looked into in my opinion.|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
This.
What I am afraid of is that we WILL get the devs to suddenly care about Khelds and take an "in-depth" look at them, only to have them decide to overhaul everything and completely change everything I like about my Warshade. What won't "fix" my Warshade? Messing around with his Stygian Circle or Eclipse powers. Seriously... We've already had one "enhancement diversification." Let's not beg for another. "Alien" |
1.) I'll start with the most talked about and obvious: Shorter form shifts and toggle suppression. The presence of two offensive toggles (Orbiting Death and Inky Aspect) in a Warshade has horrible synergy with the form shifting gimmick as it is currently. I'm not suggesting that these powers should work while in forms, but they should definitely not have to be retoggled every time you switch back to human form.
Another thing is that Dwarf should be able to benefit from the +defense from pool power toggles and Shadow Cloak. As it stands now, Human Form has more potential for survivability than the "tank" form. I've previously thrown out the idea of making Dwarf Strike work similarly to MA's Storm Kick for Tanks, granting an unstackable 10% Defense bonus whenever the power is executed.
2.) Essence Drain is a horrible power. The damage and heal are both much too low, especially when compared to Siphon Life. Warshades Single Target damage is not in danger of being overpowered even with maximized buffs given our low damage cap, I don't see how that could be considered an issue when it comes to considering a buff for this power.
3.) The inherent, while useful during the level up phase, is largely wasted for the level 50 game,and that is the focus of most new content. It is also played often by a good amount of the player base. Factor in the invention system, and all those resistance bonuses aren't giving us squat... +Def would be much more useful.
4.) Fluffies, while doing impressive damage, need help. I personally wish that all pets were controllable in the same way that Mastermind and Lore pets are but that's a separate conversation. Their AI is very stupid- They have no melee attacks and yet they always seem to hang out in Melee range. They also have very, very poor survivability. I would like to see secondary resistance toggles and/or Eclipse carry over to them.
5.) Gravimetric Snare is a bit too much of a throwaway power for my taste. Changing it into an AOE immobilize with a -KB effect on a longer recharge and for a higher endurance cost would make it much more potentially useful for Warshades, and broaden the appeal of the Archetype. Many do not like Knockback, and while Warshade KB is very manageable, it would be nice to have the option to lock down spawns.
I'm sure there's more stuff too, but those are the big ones for me.
Well if Dark detonation can be changed to perform like Dark obliteration and Essence drain receive a buff in damage and heal, would not complain either!
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Feldacarb. People complaining about Knockback on the PB need to search fu for the dev comments on that about three years ago when Khelds were changed before.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Flatulence.
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The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
Feldacarb. People complaining about Knockback on the PB need to search fu for the dev comments on that about three years ago when Khelds were changed before.
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.....or, given the fact that pretty much everything Castle had to say about Kheldians back then has been purged, you could just come right out and say what you're referring to, specifically.
Because Castle had quite a bit to say three years ago.
Not that I particularly care about knockback, but you've piqued my curiosity, and search didn't turn anything up.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Could be on a beta board, which wouldn't be accessible or even around any more.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
.....or, given the fact that pretty much everything Castle had to say about Kheldians back then has been purged, you could just come right out and say what you're referring to, specifically.
Because Castle had quite a bit to say three years ago. Not that I particularly care about knockback, but you've piqued my curiosity, and search didn't turn anything up. |
Wanted: Origin centric story arcs.
If you've only played an AT once (one set combo) and "hate" it - don't give up. Roll a different combo. It may just be those sets not clicking for you.
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True it has most likely been dumped. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
.....or, given the fact that pretty much everything Castle had to say about Kheldians back then has been purged, you could just come right out and say what you're referring to, specifically.
Because Castle had quite a bit to say three years ago. Not that I particularly care about knockback, but you've piqued my curiosity, and search didn't turn anything up. |
I guess my comments about the strength of the Khelds(PB in particular)today is based on the fact that I have really liked the improvements from how it was in I9 when I started playing them. They are worlds above what they were and like the OP said there is no consensus on what needs to be done by those that feel more is needed.
In cases like this a red letter saying something else needs to be done might hold water, but I have not seen what I would consider a real problem issue being brought up about the PB since KB vs KD is a style thing not an AT effectiveness issue.
I guess if someone were to articulate a non style issue then I could understand that, but I have not seen that and don't mean to poo poo every complaint, but nothing is screaming fix me fix me when I play it like it used to be is all.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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I can totally agree with the travel pool restrictions. Simply put, Peacebringers have the teleport animation already made in white dwarf form, and it looks fine and fits with the Kheldian "Space travel" theme. Along with that, warshades can easily be made to fly too...since their nova form can fly. Instead of implementing the powers into their choosable sets, like Quantum acceleration and Stygian Slip, just enable use of the pools. |
Originally Posted by Angelxman81
lol
This! Seriously, WS are perfectly fine. The only thing PBs needs are KB toned down A LOT to be KD. We all know why, that horse has been beated to death. Another ultimate "buff" I would like to see for Kheldians is removing the stupid travel power restrictions. I want a flying WS. And not one in a magic carpet or jetpack. Also, PBs should be able to teleport if they want to. SoA can get very nice numbers from leadership pool TWICE. Show Kheldians some love, give them the toogles, KD, travel powers and sashes they deserve, please. |
This would add, just a slight bit more, unity between the two respective Kheldian ATs (like the VEATs and similar abilities.)
Knockdown would be nice, but i've found a way to work around the whole knockback component.
EDIT I just realized that an argument AGAINST the idea that solar flare's knockback conflicts with it's other powers can be easily made. Disregarding actual use of the powers, a ranged attack is meant to be used at range, so solar flare's knockback theoretically doesn't conflict with scatter or detonation.
This brings to mind the design of photon seekers. This power summons a pet that seeks out enemies, explodes, and brings forth knock-back. Any dev in their right mind could easily say that photon seekers balances that out, because right after flare one could simply summon the seekers to hunt down enemies while you dish out some ST damage.
And since seekers isn't back up, you could use scatter, then detonation as an opener for the next mob. I didn't work the numbers for this, but it might be possible that seekers would be back up after those two mobs are finished (solo) to repeat the process once again.
On paper, a Kheldian makes a great Mob-bomber that trashed mobs by knocking them apart from the mob(s) epicenter then does ST mop, up.
As a whole, peacebringers have 4 (damaging) AoE attacks, and only two of them are used in melee range (one being the nuke, the other being solar flare. So on a ranged vs. melee standpoint, it was designed to toss a mob radially away from you in melee range so that you can pick a single target and rip him to pieces. Along with this it can be said that the lack of toggle suppression is balanced by that idea of radial knockback. Without shields in between forms survivability increases by being able to toss people away from you, where the hard hitting melee attacks are.
The only exception is the Knockback given for radiant strike...which doesn't toss enemies out of solar flare's range if i'm not mistaken.
*Please note, i'm simply analyzing this from a different view. I never stated that this is what i think, nor do i entirely agree with it. From a strictly theoretical standpoint it can be argued that way...
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Okay, I'll see how well I can articulate.|
Originally Posted by Darth_Khasei
True it has most likely been dumped.
I guess my comments about the strength of the Khelds(PB in particular)today is based on the fact that I have really liked the improvements from how it was in I9 when I started playing them. They are worlds above what they were and like the OP said there is no consensus on what needs to be done by those that feel more is needed. In cases like this a red letter saying something else needs to be done might hold water, but I have not seen what I would consider a real problem issue being brought up about the PB since KB vs KD is a style thing not an AT effectiveness issue. I guess if someone were to articulate a non style issue then I could understand that, but I have not seen that and don't mean to poo poo every complaint, but nothing is screaming fix me fix me when I play it like it used to be is all. |
If you're doing things you could never do before it's because you're doing them on an IO'd high level build. If you're incarnate then you're also doing things that almost every other incarnate in the game can do. And if I were a betting man - I'm not - I'd bet you're playing a mostly human form build, too. Which is not to say triform is weak by any stretch - it just seems to be the popular way to build Peacebringers lately. But like I said. I'm not a betting man, so you may well be triform or even biform.
And here's the reason - painful though it might be for me to admit it - why you're doing so well: Arbiter Hawk really buffed Peacebringers. That's right, I said it. Peacebringers have been buffed to the extent that they're almost overpowered in some circumstances.
Plugging his changes in to the same spreadsheets I used to demonstrate the power vaccum between PB's and WS's a few months back, I measured a roughly 30 dps gain on the same attack chain on the SO build. Survivability went up exponentially to the point that it is now roughly on par with Eclipse (LF gives self-contained capped resistance to all but psionics, Eclipse needs enemies to cap -or function - but offers psionic resistance and has no mez protection.)
Warshades are still doing roughly 60 dps more damage with comparable attack chains due largely to the pets, but since they have to keep those pets alive I could learn to live with it.
The one place where warshades truly outshine Peacebringers is mezzing capability, and with their need for enemies (both dead and living) to be in close proximity, it's good that they do.
So what's my problem with the changes?
Purely and solely for purposes of discussion, my problem is twofold:
First, they did more harm than good to the forms. When human form has mez protection and capped resistance on a permanent basis, there's really not much need to take dwarf, especially given that you're taking a substantial hit to your damage potential. The Inner Light changes were great, but it still (like Build Up before) gives the majority of the damage buff to human form, which - with these changes - STILL out-damages nova against hard targets. Additionally, Nova gets the extra damage in its attacks in the form of a damage buff. This not only puts it that much closer to the damage cap than human, it also makes enhancements less effective in Nova's attacks than they are in Human's.
My second problem with the changes is that Single Origin players don't really see a great deal of benefit from them at all. The changes were clearly balanced around the ability to use IO's to make Light Form Perma. That's a problem IMHO when you're offering Kheldians up for sale to free players who have no access to the IO system. That being said, I don't have nearly the heartburn with the second point as I do the first.
But like I said, I'm stating all this for purposes of the discussion. I don't mind talking about Kheldians at all. In fact, it's obvious I like these discussions. But I'm through advocating with any real expectations. They are what they are, and the community is fine with them to a large degree. They're also selling well to free players, if the number of new Khelds I'm seeing is any indication.
BUT for my two cents, if pressed I would recommend that psionic resistance be given to white dwarf and replace the 45% damage buff in Nova's toggle with a 45% increase to the base damage of Nova's attacks.
Call it a day. The situations where the current changes might be overpowered might be circumstantial, but they can't be ignored, and it's too late to do anything about it at any rate.
Knockback reduction and toggle suppression are on my list of "nice-to-haves," not something I'd require.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
In the interest of approaching the issue from a somewhat different (and perhaps less aggressive) mindset, I decided to create a thread for players to post what they do not think will fix Kheldians. Debate is welcome, but try to keep it civil and back up claims with data or risk ridicule, as always.
For me, I don't think removing the forms or turning them into buff toggles used by human builds would "fix" Kheldians. I think that would go against the spirit and lore of the ATs in a very big way, and would still fail to address what I view to be the primary problem Kheldians (especially PBs) have: their powers don't work together. AoE knockback doesn't fit with powerful melee attacks, disorients don't stack with holds, etc.
The floor now belongs to post #2
@Rorn ---- Blue Baron ---- Guardian