Oooh, I have one:
What won't fix Khelds is a special type of enhancement, let's call it an Archetypal Origin Enhancement, whose special proc is to boost Human Form resistance, Nova Form damage, and Dwarf Form health.
Those three things, each enhancing what the form is already good at, will not actually change or improve the playstyle at all, because the weakness of Nova form is the incomplete attack chain and minimal health and defense, the weakness of Dwarf is the incomplete attack chain AND insufficient damage, and the weakness of Human form is the insufficient damage and fragmentary melee attack chain.
And all of them suffer from scaling problems; One example is that the Human Form ranged attacks are tier 1, 2, and 3, and do not do a whole lot of damage at higher levels.
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This I can agree with. Whole-heartedly. That set is crap, and whoever designed it needs to be forced to play Peacebringers exclusively for the next year. Followed by a year on a Warshade. And no, I wouldn't consider that a punishment.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
Oooh, I have one:
What won't fix Khelds is a special type of enhancement, let's call it an Archetypal Origin Enhancement, whose special proc is to boost Human Form resistance, Nova Form damage, and Dwarf Form health. |
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| Those three things, each enhancing what the form is already good at, will not actually change or improve the playstyle at all, because the weakness of Nova form is the incomplete attack chain and minimal health and defense, the weakness of Dwarf is the incomplete attack chain AND insufficient damage, and the weakness of Human form is the insufficient damage and fragmentary melee attack chain. |
Nova does NOT have an incomplete attack chain. Bolt-Blast-Scatter-Bolt-Blast-Detonation requires minimal recharge investment to be seamless, and even with no recharge slotting whatsoever has only minor gaps. Hasten and good slotting will let you drop Bolt from the chain.
Dwarf likewise only requires minimal recharge slotting to have a nearly complete attack chain, provided you use taunt. And if you don't want to use taunt.... well, the conversation pretty much ends there.
And it's already been demonstrated that human form does more single-target damage than nova on a Peacebringer. The human form blasts might be anemic, but IS, RS and Photon Seekers more than make up for it. And on a warshade? Who cares when hasten alone can allow you to bring out two extracted essences to double your damage.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Joe, I hate to pick nits, but I have to ask how you can reconsile these two statements of yours.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Plugging his changes in to the same spreadsheets I used to demonstrate the power vaccum between PB's and WS's a few months back, I measured a roughly 30 dps gain on the same attack chain on the SO build. Survivability went up exponentially to the point that it is now roughly on par with Eclipse (LF gives self-contained capped resistance to all but psionics, Eclipse needs enemies to cap -or function - but offers psionic resistance and has no mez protection.)
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
My second problem with the changes is that Single Origin players don't really see a great deal of benefit from them at all.
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I totally agree with you that the changes hurt the forms, and I want to make sure that's clear. I also agree that the changes work out extremely well for the IO'd builds out there.
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Also true! In both situations. It still supports the argument that Peacebringer Knockback isn't a performance issue, just a speed bump, just like any other KB based character.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You're far better off to use Photon Seekers first as a toe-bomb, then following up with an immediate Solar Flare or Dawn Strike. Because the animation on the second attack starts while they're still in range (albeit in the air) the extra damage will still affect them after they land, resulting in a lot of scattered corpses.
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It really is a shame how much those changes hurt forms...
Referring back to what Joe and Dechs said, on an SO based character it was pretty beneficial, just because two strong powers were made available A LOT more often, and light form carried over to forms as well. This alone is a great benefit. In LF you were previously locked into human-mode.
I was running my Kheldian before he even had any enhancements slotted at all, and i found that the changes gave him a relatively good boost in performance.
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I think I can feel where you are coming from regarding the buff to human form at the expense of the other forms. I also don't have anything against the recommended changes to the forms that you stated. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Okay, I'll see how well I can articulate.
If you're doing things you could never do before it's because you're doing them on an IO'd high level build. If you're incarnate then you're also doing things that almost every other incarnate in the game can do. And if I were a betting man - I'm not - I'd bet you're playing a mostly human form build, too. Which is not to say triform is weak by any stretch - it just seems to be the popular way to build Peacebringers lately. But like I said. I'm not a betting man, so you may well be triform or even biform. And here's the reason - painful though it might be for me to admit it - why you're doing so well: Arbiter Hawk really buffed Peacebringers. That's right, I said it. Peacebringers have been buffed to the extent that they're almost overpowered in some circumstances. Plugging his changes in to the same spreadsheets I used to demonstrate the power vaccum between PB's and WS's a few months back, I measured a roughly 30 dps gain on the same attack chain on the SO build. Survivability went up exponentially to the point that it is now roughly on par with Eclipse (LF gives self-contained capped resistance to all but psionics, Eclipse needs enemies to cap -or function - but offers psionic resistance and has no mez protection.) Warshades are still doing roughly 60 dps more damage with comparable attack chains due largely to the pets, but since they have to keep those pets alive I could learn to live with it. The one place where warshades truly outshine Peacebringers is mezzing capability, and with their need for enemies (both dead and living) to be in close proximity, it's good that they do. So what's my problem with the changes? Purely and solely for purposes of discussion, my problem is twofold: First, they did more harm than good to the forms. When human form has mez protection and capped resistance on a permanent basis, there's really not much need to take dwarf, especially given that you're taking a substantial hit to your damage potential. The Inner Light changes were great, but it still (like Build Up before) gives the majority of the damage buff to human form, which - with these changes - STILL out-damages nova against hard targets. Additionally, Nova gets the extra damage in its attacks in the form of a damage buff. This not only puts it that much closer to the damage cap than human, it also makes enhancements less effective in Nova's attacks than they are in Human's. My second problem with the changes is that Single Origin players don't really see a great deal of benefit from them at all. The changes were clearly balanced around the ability to use IO's to make Light Form Perma. That's a problem IMHO when you're offering Kheldians up for sale to free players who have no access to the IO system. That being said, I don't have nearly the heartburn with the second point as I do the first. But like I said, I'm stating all this for purposes of the discussion. I don't mind talking about Kheldians at all. In fact, it's obvious I like these discussions. But I'm through advocating with any real expectations. They are what they are, and the community is fine with them to a large degree. They're also selling well to free players, if the number of new Khelds I'm seeing is any indication. BUT for my two cents, if pressed I would recommend that psionic resistance be given to white dwarf and replace the 45% damage buff in Nova's toggle with a 45% increase to the base damage of Nova's attacks. Call it a day. The situations where the current changes might be overpowered might be circumstantial, but they can't be ignored, and it's too late to do anything about it at any rate. Knockback reduction and toggle suppression are on my list of "nice-to-haves," not something I'd require. |
Very well articulated position.
The development team and this community deserved better than this from NC Soft. Best wishes on your search.
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GEEZE there's a heckler in every crowd! |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Joe, I hate to pick nits, but I have to ask how you can reconsile these two statements of yours.
You mention what those changes did for your SO build (30 DPS is no small thing and "exponential" survivability increase can't be either), yet somehow the SO players don't see a great deal of benefit? I totally agree with you that the changes hurt the forms, and I want to make sure that's clear. I also agree that the changes work out extremely well for the IO'd builds out there. |
You're quite right. One of the problems with being so long-winded is that I miss little mistakes like that.
I should be clearer. And more concise.
SO Builds DID benefit, but not to the extent that IO builds did. Furthermore, 30 dps only brought SO builds about a third of the way towards even approaching Warshade damage output. Bringing damage potential up from abysmal to pretty good might take 30 dps, but that doesn't make the change a great buff. Just a significant one. I did say I didn't have nearly the heartburn with SO/IO build disparity. What bothers me about it (and just a little, mind you) is that the changes for IO builds were SO GOOD that it will preclude SO players from getting futher attention, which futher devalues that 30dps in my eyes.
I should rather have said that SO builds didn't see nearly as great a benefit as IO builds.
EDIT: In all fairness, however, what dps does it take to overcome an A/V's regeneration? 120? So being able to bring 130 dps to bear is actually pretty damned good, provided you can also overcome that A/V's resistance.
EDIT EDIT: Also, keep in mind that the dps figures I used were a measure of damage potential. Looking back, I should never have used the term dps, because those spreadsheets assume that you hit powers like mire/inner light and photon seekers the arcanasecond they were recharged. They also measured performance only for the 120 seconds that Hasten was running.
They were intended to compare the two archetype builds at the peak of their power, not set any sort of metric for actual performance. Is it possible to reach 130 DPS on an SO'd peacebringer? In ideal circumstances, probably. Is it something reasonable to expect? Look for something a little bit lower.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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While I can understand Taunt being useful, I do have a problem with it; It does not *do damage*. Dwarf Form's "attack chain" then is damage, damage, damage, use taunt because there's all the damaging attacks are recharging, damage, pause because everything's on cooldown, damage.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Dwarf likewise only requires minimal recharge slotting to have a nearly complete attack chain, provided you use taunt. And if you don't want to use taunt.... well, the conversation pretty much ends there.
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That's not a complete attack chain. That's using an aggro management tool because *there's nothing else to do*.
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Dwarf is not the damage-dealing form. It's the tanking form. The fact that it is also capable of dealing damage is only secondary to its primary role of obtaining and keeping aggro, although its effectiveness at the latter is admittedly a matter of some debate.|
Originally Posted by Starcloud
While I can understand Taunt being useful, I do have a problem with it; It does not *do damage*. Dwarf Form's "attack chain" then is damage, damage, damage, use taunt because there's all the damaging attacks are recharging, damage, pause because everything's on cooldown, damage.
That's not a complete attack chain. That's using an aggro management tool because *there's nothing else to do*. |
EDIT - it should be noted that White Dwarf is a considerably better tank than Black Dwarf, due to its flare carrying a gauntlet effect in addition to the gauntlet of the single target attacks. But there again, Black Dwarf's self heal is also an attack, and so (with proper slotting) has a complete attack chain independent of taunt.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
Joe, arguments over whether dwarf is the tanking form aside, nothing will make taunt a part of an attack chain.
You don't only use dwarf to tank.
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You activate attacks to deal damage and in so doing you influence the outcome of the battle. Taunt doesn't deal damage (unless you proc it), but it still influences the outcome of the battle by influencing your opponents to move where you want them to be, whether it's in a tighter group for a mire or flare or further away from another spawn. Either way taunt plays just as big a role in your impending victory as your attacks.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Joe, arguments over whether dwarf is the tanking form aside, nothing will make taunt a part of an attack chain.
You don't only use dwarf to tank. |
A controller might not deal any damage with radiation infection, or a defender might not deal damage with tar pit, but you would still credit them just as much as the scrapper for the victory.
The best scrapper I ever saw took and used confront to cut individual mobs out of a room full of x8 spawns. With little hops back and forward she solo'd the room in less time than it took for the rest of the team to wipe at the entrance. Confront didn't do any damage, but it allowed her to clean the floor with her enemies.
No, taunt deserves a place in your attack chain. It might not be a good idea for it to show up every single cycle of your attacks, but its lack of damage doesn't diminish its significance, regardless of whether or not you're tanking.
And - unless I read your guide wrong - if you've got a long enough gap in your dwarf attack chain that you're standing around, you shouldn't be staying in dwarf anyway.
EDIT - unless you're tanking.And don't forget that taunt comes with a HEFTY range debuff. You want those marksmen and snipers at least close to melee range, dammit, and that range debuff don't last forever.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Unfortunately, with the use of Provoke, Human Form for both Kheldians is a better tank due to higher survivability and damage output. Maybe for Peacebringers it's not so much because massive unnecessary KB isn't the best trait for a tank to have, but for Warshades at least, the only useful thing that Dwarf is capable of doing on an end game build is stacking up a Mire. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Dwarf is not the damage-dealing form. It's the tanking form. The fact that it is also capable of dealing damage is only secondary to its primary role of obtaining and keeping aggro, although its effectiveness at the latter is admittedly a matter of some debate.
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I did an experiment with AIB where we were both on an AV- He was on his White Dwarf Policebringer and I was on my Human Form Warshade. I was able to pull aggro off of him consistently and essentially split it with him by just using provoke. We repeated the experiment for several AV's with similar results.
I would also argue that the superior mez capabilities of human form make it even more of a superior tank than Black Dwarf- If you can stun the whole room, it's going to make a noticeable increase in your team mate's survivability.
Unfortunately I don't have room for Provoke in my build anymore, which really bums me out and brings me to my main point that I should have mentioned in my last post:
Since we can't get APP/PPP's, and the Devs probably wouldn't even have time to give us that option at any point, I think we should be given an extra power pool to choose from. The flexibility would be much appreciated, and I would most definitely get use out of picking Speed, Fighting, Leaping, Leadership, and Presence.
As much as I want Provoke back, I don't think I should have to sacrifice ~4% defense to everything, 7.5% global recharge, 10% regen, and 1.12% HP for the three slots that I spent on Combat Jumping just to get it. I would however drop Nebulous Form for Provoke in a second.
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It'd be nice if we could get access to all the power pools before being granted a 5th from which to choose.
| ... I think we should be given an extra power pool to choose from ... |
Be well, people of CoH.
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As I said, how well dwarf does at tanking is a matter of some debate. One thing I would point out, however, is that your human form doesn't have punch-voke in any of his attacks.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Unfortunately, with the use of Provoke, Human Form for both Kheldians is a better tank due to higher survivability and damage output. Maybe for Peacebringers it's not so much because massive unnecessary KB isn't the best trait for a tank to have, but for Warshades at least, the only useful thing that Dwarf is capable of doing on an end game build is stacking up a Mire.
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Having said that, however, higher damage has a bad habit of trumping basic taunt effects in this game. But again - that's a separate debate relating to the fundamentals of how aggro works, and not one I'm qualified to enter. But the problem of high damage stripping aggro off of pure taunt effect isn't necessarily with dwarf so much as it is with the aggro formula.
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| I did an experiment with AIB where we were both on an AV- He was on his White Dwarf Policebringer and I was on my Human Form Warshade. I was able to pull aggro off of him consistently and essentially split it with him by just using provoke. We repeated the experiment for several AV's with similar results. |
I'm not saying dwarf is a GREAT tank, or even a better tank than human form. I'm just saying you haven't collected enough data yet.
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I would also argue that the superior mez capabilities of human form make it even more of a superior tank than Black Dwarf- If you can stun the whole room, it's going to make a noticeable increase in your team mate's survivability.
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Unfortunately I don't have room for Provoke in my build anymore, which really bums me out and brings me to my main point that I should have mentioned in my last post: Since we can't get APP/PPP's, and the Devs probably wouldn't even have time to give us that option at any point, I think we should be given an extra power pool to choose from. The flexibility would be much appreciated, and I would most definitely get use out of picking Speed, Fighting, Leaping, Leadership, and Presence. As much as I want Provoke back, I don't think I should have to sacrifice ~4% defense to everything, 7.5% global recharge, 10% regen, and 1.12% HP for the three slots that I spent on Combat Jumping just to get it. I would however drop Nebulous Form for Provoke in a second. |
I feel your pain. I have the same problem on a number of characters, because let's face it - sometimes the APP's or PPP's ain't all they're cracked up to be, either.
EDIT - and there always seems to be an edit with me. If I recall correctly we can go villain and do the patron arcs, but even if we do we don't get access to those power pools. Given that SoA's can, THAT is something we ought to be jumping up and down about.
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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I know, I never said it was a complete and indisputable study, just relating personal experience. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
There's more to the tanker role than tanking AV's, so I don't think your experiments are complete.
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| In fact, I'm not terribly impressed that you'd be able to pull an AV - Boss class mobs and above tend to respond much more to damage than taunt, whereas the lt's and minions seem much more attracted to taunt and gauntlet. I'd be MUCH more interested to hear if you could pull more than a third of a spawn of lt's, minions and bosses off of his dwarf. |
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| No, that makes you a superior controller. Mezzing the spawn is controlling the aggro, not focusing it on you. |
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| EDIT - and there always seems to be an edit with me. If I recall correctly we can go villain and do the patron arcs, but even if we do we don't get access to those power pools. Given that SoA's can, THAT is something we ought to be jumping up and down about. |
Yeah, we've had that discussion many times. It's pretty annoying.
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Again - Inky Aspect and Gravitic Emanation are controlling the spawn, not attracting aggro. The difference is that when those minions wake up (IF they wake up) they will still be aggro'd according to the same rules everyone but tankers, dwarves and brutes follow.|
Originally Posted by TwoHeadedBoy
Well therein lies the wonders of Inky Aspect and Gravitic Emanation, which effectively locks down minions and LT's permanently at an even-level. Add Unchain Essence into the mix, and that's some pretty insane mitigation, which is just as effective as holding minion/LT aggro- You could even argue that it's more effective as squishies don't even have to worry about taking stray AOE attacks from mezzed enemies.
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Provided, of course, they are still alive. You see, having said the above I will freely and quite happily concede that provoke gives human form JUST ENOUGH aggro control to XXXXX XXX XXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX XX XXXXXXXXX! XX XXXXXX XXX XXXXX.
Hmmm. For some reason every time I try to come right out and give specifics on how awesome warshades can be it posts as if it's some sort of CIA redacted document. It's almost as if my subconscious doesn't want me to put specifics like that where developer eyes can see them.
Let me just say this: Human form can do some awesome things that can protect teams and defeat spawns, but it does them through a mix of control, damage, and - if you invest in provoke - minor tanking.
Tanking is a role that can be played by multiple archetypes, including the human-form kheldian, but it is performed best with layers of aggro attracting effects, or taunt. Human form doesn't have that.
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Tell that to Dechs when he's on his Dark Armor Tank.
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So what? you say. Well, if someone - say a Peacebringer - knocks those mobs out of a warshade's mez radius, they're going to come out of the mez and attack the one that did the knocking back. You could get some - or maybe all - of that aggro back, but odds are good that one or more would land a hit or two (or four) on your team before you did.
Someone knocks mobs out of Dechs' aggro radius - odds are better than average that those mobs are still taunted to his tanker.
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| Yeah, we've had that discussion many times. It's pretty annoying. |
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
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Wise man.|
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
Provided, of course, they are still alive. You see, having said the above I will freely and quite happily concede that provoke gives human form JUST ENOUGH aggro control to XXXXX XXX XXXXXXX XXXXX XXXXXXXXXXX XX XXXXXXXXX! XX XXXXXX XXX XXXXX.
Hmmm. For some reason every time I try to come right out and give specifics on how awesome warshades can be it posts as if it's some sort of CIA redacted document. It's almost as if my subconscious doesn't want me to put specifics like that where developer eyes can see them. |
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
A Dev knows they've done a good job on a set when people think differently and build differently. Cookie cutter builds all over the place looks like a sign of developers block. Every power should be desirable.
You've got more powers than you can take, plenty of concepts to think about, plenty of dynamics to adopt and the ability to go about choosing intentions you do see, or value, over intentions you don't see, or value.
There can be very little difference between a high performance Human Form and a high performance Tri Form when it comes to it. Either way, one will be capable of something slightly better than the other, whilst the other might have more strings to its bow.
There will always be, different ideas as to what is hot and what is not. It's based on what people think they know and no ones Kheldian guide covers everything. This I do know.
Whatever people become with their Khelds I hope its just as much a result of themselves more than the result of somebodies help. Nothing worse than being in a game full of copycats. A game that prides itself on customization doesn't want to be a game where everybodies character can be different, yet nobodies is.
I'm guessing Smiling Joe is keeping certain things that haven't been on the boards from the boards when he says redacting. Allowing people the pleasure of discovering the game for themselves is a good thing, there is a term for it, but I forget what the name of that term is but its a good thing, for once people understand all the magic tricks, the magic is gone.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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No, Smiling Joe is being absolutely and utterly silly. Don't pay any attention to remarks like that whatsoever. |
Originally Posted by New Dawn
I'm guessing Smiling Joe is keeping certain things that haven't been on the boards from the boards when he says redacting.
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The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies
You know, I'm not sure if it had been suggested as a way to improve the transformation of PBs, but is there reason why they can't just shift the resistances of the Dwarf Form and the damage of Nova to make them, you know, stronger? I suppose if it is too strong at lower levels, there can be a level scaling effect provided to give a more gradual increase in power until it peaks at 35 or 38 (when light form appears). Combine that with changing Nova from having a +dmg effect to merely having more powerful attacks, and it should make a bland in-the box but effective solution.
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Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
No, Smiling Joe is being absolutely and utterly silly. Don't pay any attention to remarks like that whatsoever.
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I'm sorry, what? Did you say something?
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You're missing the point with Dwarf... Light Form/Eclipse cap resistance anyways. More resistance isn't the answer. For a Warshade, a +dmg for Nova is worthless on a Tri Form build since Nova is the AOE form and against enough enemies where it would be appropriate to use Mire, a Tri Form shade can cap their damage anyways.|
Originally Posted by Blood Red Arachnid
You know, I'm not sure if it had been suggested as a way to improve the transformation of PBs, but is there reason why they can't just shift the resistances of the Dwarf Form and the damage of Nova to make them, you know, stronger? I suppose if it is too strong at lower levels, there can be a level scaling effect provided to give a more gradual increase in power until it peaks at 35 or 38 (when light form appears). Combine that with changing Nova from having a +dmg effect to merely having more powerful attacks, and it should make a bland in-the box but effective solution.
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I would be down with removing the crashes from the Shade/PB Nukes, scaling down the damage a bit, and making them Nova form powers. That would make the most sense to me.
I might suggest allowing some of the human form powers to be usable in forms. first and foremost all shields should be usable with any form.
For PB's, the ranged powers the human takes can be usable for nova's the three melee powers can be used as a crab. The healing powers and inner light can be used by either.
For WS's the same sort of thing, but drop the second version of essence drain and mire and replace both with something. Allow shadow cloak and inky aspect to be used on the crab, and stygean to be used on everything.
Oh well just a few ideas.
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While I definitely appreciate input and suggestions from anyone and everyone, I'd have to say that if Khelds got THIS much of an overhaul, I'd shelf mine for good.|
Originally Posted by Blitzy
I might suggest allowing some of the human form powers to be usable in forms. first and foremost all shields should be usable with any form.
For PB's, the ranged powers the human takes can be usable for nova's the three melee powers can be used as a crab. The healing powers and inner light can be used by either. For WS's the same sort of thing, but drop the second version of essence drain and mire and replace both with something. Allow shadow cloak and inky aspect to be used on the crab, and stygean to be used on everything. Oh well just a few ideas. |
"Alien"
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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I'd have to agree with you on that Alien, If Kheldians got the ability to us human form powers while in dwarf/nova the character wouldn't be a challenge anymore. I could just plop on all resistance toggles, and fly up in nova form. effectively blasting while at softcap for s/l/e at little/no cost to me. :P|
Originally Posted by AlienOne
While I definitely appreciate input and suggestions from anyone and everyone, I'd have to say that if Khelds got THIS much of an overhaul, I'd shelf mine for good.
"Alien" |
I think a Form "Specialization" would be interesting, a sort of mastery pool where you can add abilities to ONE of your forms.
Nova --> Chain induction?
Dwarf --> (themactically) Self tele-port attack? "Dwarven Fury"
The Scrappers' Guide to Dark Melee | Kheldian Binds and Strategies