well, just a point of view from someone who doesn't use incarnate powers.
I'm not fond of most tier 9 nukes. Somehow, they just seem less impressive than they should be. When I use a power nicknamed 'nuke' I expect something that will efficiently and reliably clear an entire room, even at the cost of me lying on the ground near death.
It shouldn't be your leading move, it should more be your last resort.
Suggesting that we reduce the endurance cost of these powers or make them more usable seems, to me, to go against the idea of the power. I believe that we should make them more damaging, more accurate, more stunning... and more debilitating.
If I get to the point where I need my Psychic Wave, the fight is already going wrong. If I set it off, I expect to be standing in the center of the room, stunned, out of endurance, 1 HP remaining.... and surrounded by the corpses of my enemies.
A nuke should be my Gandalf on the bridge power..
"You, shall not PASS!" BOOM!
just a thought from me.
Writer of In-Game fiction: Just Completed: My Summer Vacation. My older things are now being archived at Fanfiction.net http://www.fanfiction.net/~jwbullfrog until I come up with a better solution.
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Well of course. Your suggestion is to simply make it cheaper. And your suggestion is worse than someone suggesting the nukes should cost no endurance. So what?|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I wouldn't mind an EoT, but not with your numbers. Your suggestion would be a total of -125 end, which means even if you pop a recovery power or a stack of blues you will still be losing endurance after you topped out in addition to the drain of your toggles (since all toggles would be negative recovery when factoring the recov debuff of the nukes), I'm not sure but it's not a whole lot better than current and definitely worse than my suggestion of simply reducing the -end to 75.
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And 1 small blue inspiration is 25 END. 1 medium is 33 END. Most likely, any player character is going to aim to get their combined toggle costs to be under 2 END/sec. So that's less than 20 END cost over that 20sec period of no recovery. 1 medium blue will get you through the crash with toggles intact and 2 small blues would be enough to get you through the crash and some extra to get off some attacks. My suggestion isn't to cheapen the nuke, just give you more options (namely one that doesn't drop your toggles).
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Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
well, just a point of view from someone who doesn't use incarnate powers.
I'm not fond of most tier 9 nukes. Somehow, they just seem less impressive than they should be. When I use a power nicknamed 'nuke' I expect something that will efficiently and reliably clear an entire room, even at the cost of me lying on the ground near death. It shouldn't be your leading move, it should more be your last resort. Suggesting that we reduce the endurance cost of these powers or make them more usable seems, to me, to go against the idea of the power. I believe that we should make them more damaging, more accurate, more stunning... and more debilitating. If I get to the point where I need my Psychic Wave, the fight is already going wrong. If I set it off, I expect to be standing in the center of the room, stunned, out of endurance, 1 HP remaining.... and surrounded by the corpses of my enemies. A nuke should be my Gandalf on the bridge power.. "You, shall not PASS!" BOOM! just a thought from me. |
I had a kinda-thought about adding more omph to the nukes and keeping them where they are. Not more damage particularly, but when you unleash your power, it'd wouldn't just be a flash then vanish but instead persist for a time.
Using the sonic nuke (Dreadful Wail) drops all your endurance and nukes everything around you, leaving them stunned with -res debuffs...add to that a sonic cyclone around you that buffs up your resist for around 10sec and further debuffs any foes you walk up next to (think Disruption Field).
Using the dark nuke (Blackstar) drops all your endurance and nukes all around you, leaving their ToHit debuffed but also spawns a 'creeping darkness' pseudopet that stretches out wide and travels further on the map, lowering perception and damage without notifying mobs (think the ghost mist stuff in some missions).
Thunderous Blast will strike a group of foes from range and the aftermath of the bolt leaves several jumping (very minor dmg) jolting chains that will jump back and forth to mobs, knocking them down constantly (unless there's only 1 foe left) for 10sec.
That's kind of the idea Leo. Make them more impressive without making them gamebreaking. But, combined with that, they should be limited enough that they are, perhaps, a 'once a mission' power.
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We both know a cost free nuke would be broken.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Well of course. Your suggestion is to simply make it cheaper. And your suggestion is worse than someone suggesting the nukes should cost no endurance. So what?
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| And 1 small blue inspiration is 25 END. 1 medium is 33 END. Most likely, any player character is going to aim to get their combined toggle costs to be under 2 END/sec. So that's less than 20 END cost over that 20sec period of no recovery. 1 medium blue will get you through the crash with toggles intact and 2 small blues would be enough to get you through the crash and some extra to get off some attacks. My suggestion isn't to cheapen the nuke, just give you more options (namely one that doesn't drop your toggles). |
Before they go looking at changing the Nukes I'd prefer if they gave the Blaster AT the complete overhaul they've been needing for years now.
Nukes can be looked at while they are buffing Blasters back into the 'Damage Kings' position we're supposed to fill.
The game evolved faster than Blasters could keep up sadly, this power-creep on the part of the other AT's was gradual enough not be noticed... Until now.
The reason why Blasters are becoming few and far between these days isn't due to the Nukes. It's simply because the main reason to pick them before, the massive damage, can now be done much safer by nearly all the other AT's.
Why pick a Glass Cannon when you can have a Bronze Cannon(Scrappers) or a Iron Cannon(Brutes) Or even a Steel shotgun(Tanks, MM's, Corr)
Other than concept/wanting range there is no longer a reason to pick Blasters. Other AT's can dish out the same amount of damage these days... That is unacceptable.
Blasters have been, since day 1 of playing, the main AT I roll. When I think of CoH I think of Blasters. After spending the last year having more burst damage available on scrappers than any Blaster I could roll I simply gave up. This is a large reason why I just went ahead and lapsed to Premium status this week.
Please bring the entire Blaster AT up to speed with the current game. Nukes would by proxy get alterterd for all AT's that use them as a result.
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But it's "a whole lot better than" what you suggested. The point was, it's moot to compare the 2 suggestions because one is to give you time/opportunity without making the power cheaper while the other is to simply make the power cheaper.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
We both know a cost free nuke would be broken.
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| Powers shouldn't rely on insps to be effective powers. |
Considering that nukes have NEVER been adjusted directly that I know of, their only changes coming from archetype/system wide adjustments, I can't see why the things haven't been adjusted until now. When most were made, you could slot nukes fro +200% damage and wipe out literally whole zones worth of enemies. At that power, a crash and the current recharge made sense.
The whole 'up to 200% +damage' also made snipes' recharge/damage/interruptability more on-par. Now they can barely finish a minion on their own.
Then they implemented ED, and put in the target caps. Yet these powers still pay for the ability to do what they cannot do anymore. Yay?
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I don't consider breaking a power to be "better". |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
But it's "a whole lot better than" what you suggested. The point was, it's moot to compare the 2 suggestions because one is to give you time/opportunity without making the power cheaper while the other is to simply make the power cheaper.
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80% end +15%*3 EoT = Gives you a short (read: immediately after nuking) period to be able to stabilize your endurance without losing your toggles. Overall endurance used is increased significantly. For any non end stable build (read: most builds using SOs) you will run out of endurance even faster than before after nuking and recovering to full as they will have to deal with both a recovery debuff and an EoT. Strictly this is a NERF for every situation other than having at least 5 small blue insps on hand to come out even. With this change your only option is still the same as before, except that you get to keep your toggles if you have all the resources available to keep them.
75% end = After nuking you are left with 25% endurance and 0 recovery, however the effects of this is alot more than simply making it cheaper. It is not completely reliant on any outside sources to be an effective power but can also benefit from having such powers or resources. If you don't have any blue inspirations or recovery power you can still fire off a few attacks (to finish off anything your nuke didn't kill) before running out of endurance, however you will still run out of endurance fairly quickly if left unmanaged as the recovery debuff is still significant. If you do have a recovery power you will have enough endurance to get to the next spawn before your toggles or an EoT crash you to use the power (in case your nuke or your teammates kill everything). Or if you have blue inspirations to manage it you can keep fighting, not have to retoggle, and need less blue inspirations than the current situation to bring you back to the status quo.
Your option gives time/opportunity (at the cost of 25% more end than the current version), but so does mine and it also strips the need of outside resources, gives you more combat options, and uses less endurance overall.
The situation of nukes really calls for a buff, not a tradeoff. I could see an EoT working, but the total end used really shouldn't be higher than it is currently. And really the massive recovery debuff already serves the purpose of an EoT. If your toggles use 2 EPS, after nuking thats going to be -10% end over 10 seconds added on to any EoT.
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| Or Transference? Or Conserve Power? Or Dark Consumption? Or Power Sink? Or Consume? |
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Do you even know the numbers on the nukes? Currently, they cost 20 END up front (meaning you need that much END to click it) and then 100 END after they hit the foe. Count again.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
Overall endurance used is increased significantly.
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For any non end stable build (read: most builds using SOs) you will run out of endurance even faster than before after nuking and recovering to full as they will have to deal with both a recovery debuff and an EoT. [snip] The situation of nukes really calls for a buff, not a tradeoff. |
Heck, if the cost is kept the same, you might be able to rally to have the recharge cut down. Yeah, it drops your END to zip, but the pure burst damage improvement just means END is far more valuable to a blaster. I don't see that as a problem. We already have inherent Stamina, so it's alot easier to manage END. A decently recharging, crashing big honking AoE nuke just means blasters have a trick no DPS AT has, turning END > dead mobs. Fill those trays with blues and/or bring your support ATs with +END powers and you drastically improve ranged AT dmg (isn't quite the case for anyone else).
To recap: you want to make the power cheaper which may just mean lowering dmg or some other value...but even if not, it's still a costly power. I'm suggesting keeping the cost the same, but making the power *DO MORE DAMAGE*. Keeping the cost the same just means buffing other values, like recharge, effect or adding extra utility to it.
I'd prefer you not even put your suggestion in the same league as mine. They aren't even asking for the same thing. Cheers.
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I've been ignoring that for simplicity, however if you really want to include it, it doesnt make your suggestion look any better. If you count the activation end (some of which is mitigated by recovery while the nuke is animating, and some of which is reduced by endred) your suggestion at base would mean losing 100% end and 45% EoT. Thats far worse than it is currently. I don't, and I'm sure many other people dont, want to lose nearly 150% of endurance to use a single power, that's ridiculous. 150% end (with a recovery debuff on top of it) means using 6 or more blues if you want to fight through the crash and not lose your toggles, to repeat SIX INSPS, and if you keep fighting the recovery debuff will cause you to use more. No damage buff, radius increase, debuff/mez increase, or recharge increase can make that cost viable.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Do you even know the numbers on the nukes? Currently, they cost 20 END up front (meaning you need that much END to click it) and then 100 END after they hit the foe. Count again.
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| All moot. |
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No.|
Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
If you count the activation end (some of which is mitigated by recovery while the nuke is animating, and some of which is reduced by endred) your suggestion at base would mean losing 100% end and 45% EoT. Thats far worse than it is currently.
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It'd be 20 END + 60 END (equalling 80) *then* a period where your power drains vs 20 END then whatever you have left. The sum of which would be what they currently cost, spread over a period that 'might' be manageable. The idea isn't to make it completely mitigatable, just manageable in some circumstances. Because if it was made completely mitigatable, then that's just making the power cost less and therefore is a boost to the cost. I want a boost to the *power*.
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| No u? |
I dont take Nukes with crashes. My main is a Fire/Fire/Scorp and the only reason he takes inferno is because he has one extra power choice after his build is finished and uses it as part of a costume change bind.
Yep nukes pretty much suck as bad as our outdated and silly secondaries.
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Back at Launch, Nukes used to stun you when you fired them off. The result was you'd fire a nuke, kill about 3/4 of the spawn and die to the survivors while staggering away slowly. And while Nukes are an interesting idea as finishers, the fact of the matter is unless you're using said nuke with Aim and Build Up, it's not that strong. The thing deals 3.0 scale damage guaranteed, another 1.5 at a 75% chance and another 1.5 at a 50% chance. Even at their full capacity, that's still not enough to kill an even con lieutenant, especially a resistant one like Crey Tanks, and that doesn't even kill all minions. If you're unlucky enough to miss both additional damage components, you simply lack the damage to one-shot minions, and that's not counting actual complete misses, which at a final to-hit cap of 95% are not terribly uncommon.|
Originally Posted by jwbullfrog
If I get to the point where I need my Psychic Wave, the fight is already going wrong. If I set it off, I expect to be standing in the center of the room, stunned, out of endurance, 1 HP remaining.... and surrounded by the corpses of my enemies.
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If you're just about to die and decide to drop off a nuke as a last resort, you'll usually die. If you're unlucky, you'll die during the very lengthy animation, and if you're lucky, you'll die to the things that you missed or didn't have enough punch to outright kill. And yes, I'm sure Dreadful Wail and Psychic Wail have nice debuffs. Neither Nova nor Inferno have that. Nova has about mid-range knockback on it and Inferno has extra damage ticks.
And I'm not just talking out of my ***. I've tried to use both Inferno and Nova as last resort "Save me!" powers and nine out of ten times, I failed. Either I couldn't deal enough damage to kill all enemies or I'd miss a few or because they're scattered, a few would be out of range, then my Epic shield would drop because I ran out of endurance and what's left would finish off the last sliver of health I had. And mind you, nukes are powers I took, slotted and made a point to use as often as I can. I made a concerted effort to use these powers, and I died more often when trying to use them than under all other circumstances combined.
A PBAoE power with a long animation, complete endurance drain and crapshoot damage which can fluctuate up to double its base... Or not just serves to kill me more often than not. It's impressive when it works, but the simple fact is if I'm about to die, then using a Nuke is about as effective as using Self Destruct. When I am about to die, I leg it and rest. Sure, it's not as impressive, but it doesn't get me dead.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I will agree I find it a bit odd, even a bit thematically off when this Incarnate judgement power does so much more then this so called Nuke but the weaker Nuke is the power that drains you.
Yes we can pretend that the power is being drain from someplace else when you use your Judgement, but it still coming from your endurance nonetheless.
Unfortunately this is moment where they put the horse before the cart. When the Nuke was out they never thought of Incarnates. They just didn't think that far ahead. And thought they made some good updates and fixes, they really didn't take the bull by the horns when looking to update certain power sets or Archtypes. It feels almost as if they just couldn't or didn't know how until new people came in and started getting a grasp of the game engine when others have left. So by the time these new devs are up to speed they are trying to catch up with stuff that are several years old issue wise. So some stuff just gets left behind because they just can't cover it all.
You can clearly see from the new power sets compared to the old power sets how well developed the new sets are and how much more modifications are available for these new sets.
I think an excellent example is Kheldian and VEATs. The SOA alone has 3 leveling modes in which all 3 are excellent and have some massive capabilities for leveling and end game scenarios. Where as Khelds just had so many issues on how IOs worked or should say didn't work in different forms.
Today with the advent of the market if possible I see no reason why they could not just add alternate power choices for these Nukes in question. This way both sides of the fence are satisfied. Increase the DPS for Nukes that crash you and make a crashless nuke choice for those that do not to crash their endurance bar.
Personally the cost of dying after using a Nuke, ressing back up assuming you have a personal ress or inspiratoin, turning on all your toggles again and eating 1 blue and 1 green inspiration to get back in the game lowers my overall dps compared to the other blaster that does less dps over all but keep on pumping while I am trying to recover. Again this is assuming you can get back up. If you need to wait or run back from the hospital your dps is really going down the tubes compared to that other blaster.
I can't describe how many times over the 6 years I have seen specifically Energy Blasters run into a group fire off Nova Blast just to have 2 or 3 mobs still alive to face plant the offending blaster.
But honestly I think the market is the answer to this issue and it keeps the peace on both sides of this fence.
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4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives
I agree 100% they should just use 25-50 endurance to activate them and no recovery debuff at all
Yes please. I want to be able to use my nuke as a nuke, not as a suicide button. Dreadful Wail has such a lovely hourglass-shaped animation that it pains me not to take it on my Time/Sonic defender.
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The perfect solution to this would be a normal cost of the nuke lets say.....
25 Endurance cost to activate the nuke, THEN..... a recovery debuff for 10-15 seconds that way we can keep poping blues and don't get toggle drops.
Fortunately for you you already have an option if you don't like them. Skip the nuke and wait to get your judgement power.
Your arguments are nothing new, though. It's the same tired "I had to play it the hard way, all the newbies should, too!" argument. It was the same one trotted out when players suggested that we be able to e-mail stuff to each other and ourselves. Or have the full-blown travel powers available to us at earlier levels.
Do you know how RARE it is for me to see a Nuke power go off nowadays? I hadn't even SEEN Blizzard until I used it. I've been playing for almost six years now! In the early days, I'd seen plenty of Inferno and Nova, but now I only really see them used by enemy NPCs (and THEY get a fun version that doesn't leave them exhausted). Then the random newbie comes along, uses the Nuke to not-quite-clear a group of enemies, the team goes "WOAH!" and the newbie says "Yeah, it was cool, but I'm gonna respec out of it."
I feel there is something inherently wrong with that kind of reaction. These are supposed to be the powers that make players go "YES! This is why I ran a Blaster!" or "You think you could stop my Defender!? I will show you why WE are the DEFENDERS!" Instead, I keep seeing "Oh, I just keep it for emergencies." or "I had an extra power pick and nothing else really caught my attention." or "Yeah, whatever. I hardly ever use it."
But those players sure do love to toss a Judgement power around every other NPC group.
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