New Archetype -- Buff/Debuff Primary with Melee Assault Secondary
By
BrandX,
Posted on: 2011-12-31 16:05 in Suggestions and Ideas
I'd go for it if done right.
The major problem I see, though, is that few people would be happy with the available attack/defense mixes. For instance, sword attacks would naturally be paired with shield defenses, and there are those who'd want sword with other defenses or shield with other attacks.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Of course, the secondary could be split similar to SoAs. Starting out you would choose your attack set, and then at a certain level defense sets would open up an you'd choose which one to take at that time.
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Maybe having them operate more like SoA's would be doable. At this point they aren't going to do a separate one for CoH and CoV. So you could be very outside the box with the new set.
I'd switch it up to melee first and buff/debuff second. Make them a bit higher on the damage mod.
Then I'd switch out one of the buff/debuff powers for a mez protection power, or the AT will really feel the suckie for being in melee.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Well I had the Mez Protection being on the melee attack side as part of the "Dominator Assault-esk" mix of powers. I agree the Mez protection is important if you are in melee. |
Originally Posted by BrandX
I'd switch it up to melee first and buff/debuff second. Make them a bit higher on the damage mod.
Then I'd switch out one of the buff/debuff powers for a mez protection power, or the AT will really feel the suckie for being in melee. |
The problem I see with trying to put the Mez protection in Buff/Debuff is that with as varied as those sets and powers are its hard to say what power to remove from them to put it in. Heck, Forcefields and Sonic already have Mez protection. But I think the double-ing up would be ok, if you were in FF or Sonic you could just skip the Mez protection if you wanted to.
The other option would be to put the Mez protection in the Archetype's inherent ability.
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That just means it makes more sense to put the shields in the (de)buff set. If you're armoring up your allies with ice armors, it'd only make sense to be covering yourself in ice too. Or if you're able to heal the HP of others, you should be capable of that yourself.|
Originally Posted by Talionis
Well I had the Mez Protection being on the melee attack side as part of the "Dominator Assault-esk" mix of powers. I agree the Mez protection is important if you are in melee.
The problem I see with trying to put the Mez protection in Buff/Debuff is that with as varied as those sets and powers are its hard to say what power to remove from them to put it in. Heck, Forcefields and Sonic already have Mez protection. But I think the double-ing up would be ok, if you were in FF or Sonic you could just skip the Mez protection if you wanted to. |
IMO, it forces more concepts to put armors into melee sets. Like Tenz said, what do you pair with Martial arts? Super Reflexes? What about Swords? Or Kinetic Melee? Or Energy Melee? You have to start enforcing extra power concepts, saying just because you fight with your feet, you have quick reflexes or if you use energy fist attacks you use bubbles.
Also, IMO, if you're going to have a support AT that has full mez protection and/or armor built in, why should they also have access to all the amazing buff/debuff powers that a vulnerable squishie does? If you're a FF or Sonic, giving up the big bubble for a self-mez protection 'bubble' seems fair. Or dropping darkest night for self protection. All in all, you'd help the team less than a Corruptor or Defender but far more than a Scrapper or Brute. And you'd have less self protection than a Scrap but far more than your standard Defender.
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I'm all for different ideas, but for all intents and purposes the different armors really aren't all that different. Their animations are mostly only slightly noticeable. |
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That just means it makes more sense to put the shields in the (de)buff set. If you're armoring up your allies with ice armors, it'd only make sense to be covering yourself in ice too. Or if you're able to heal the HP of others, you should be capable of that yourself.
IMO, it forces more concepts to put armors into melee sets. Like Tenz said, what do you pair with Martial arts? Super Reflexes? What about Swords? Or Kinetic Melee? Or Energy Melee? You have to start enforcing extra power concepts, saying just because you fight with your feet, you have quick reflexes or if you use energy fist attacks you use bubbles. Also, IMO, if you're going to have a support AT that has full mez protection and/or armor built in, why should they also have access to all the amazing buff/debuff powers that a vulnerable squishie does? If you're a FF or Sonic, giving up the big bubble for a self-mez protection 'bubble' seems fair. Or dropping darkest night for self protection. All in all, you'd help the team less than a Corruptor or Defender but far more than a Scrapper or Brute. And you'd have less self protection than a Scrap but far more than your standard Defender. |
I think they could inoccuously go the Hide route that the stalkers use and grant many of the Ninja Sword/War Mace a generic version of the armors. Thematically speaking if you aren't getting some of the other powers. Their shouldn't be much of a problem.
I would agree, it would be cool to put the Shield Powerset somehow into the Buff/Debuff side so that it could be used with multiple Primaries; or alternatively making Shield its own set or setting up the Shields as a possible Ancillary Powerset for this new Archetype.
I wouldn't worry to much about having a shield powerset in this AT. If people want the shield AT they can make a shield defense toon out of a Scrapper/Brute/Tanker.
Going Melee/Buff-Debuff AT, I'd just go with the idea of pairing melee sets with the various Buff-Debuff sets.
As for Sonic and Force Fields Mez Protection, Id buff them up to bethe most powerful mez protection in this ATs arsenal, while giving the other sets weaker (but still effective...so not as strong as Scrappers/Stalker/Brutes but passable) mez protection, and possibly no sleep protection (which Force Field and Sonic would likely now have) in either one of their powers or in a replacement power.
Cold Domination could have the mez protection in it's stealth power, as could Dark and Storm, while Radiation, Empathy, ect would lose one of their powers for the Mez Protection toggle.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
What I would do, is provide minor mez protection* and resist in the Archetype's Inherent power. That would prevent the constant detoggle they'd be subject to from being in melee range (Cause even if there's a Tanker or Brute holding the agro, you'd still be in the radius of any Area Effect mezzes used againt the other melee). That eliminates the need to try and shoehorn any type of mez shield into the actual sets, and maintains somewhat the uniqueness of sets like FF and Sonic providing mez protection, in that they would have noticeably more.
Then there's 2 things you could do if you wanted to add better self mitigation to the archetype; You can put thematically appropriate armor toggles it into the melee set, replacing Taunt (Still bringing into question which "theme" goes with certain sets) -or- you can modify the support sets to be more "user friendly" and provide greater buffing/benefit to the caster than they do for the current ranged support types.
*My minor I mean say, 2-4mag and maybe 50% resist.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
I would replace Taunt with a power called Rally that did a PBAoE buff of some sort to allies (possibly a solid amount of debuff and mez resistance).
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
I like the idea of the Defensive self buff numbers being higher for this set. I think it makes sense. Much like the control powers in the buff debuff sets being stronger for Controlers than Defenders.
I also agree at least some Mez protection is needed for the archetype and I'm ok with the Devs putting it where they see fit.
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I doubt they would make the Mez protection a buff, only two sets FF and Sonic have them and this set already has access to both those buffs. If they do something like that then they would really have to change a power in the buff debuff power set to grant it.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
I would replace Taunt with a power called Rally that did a PBAoE buff of some sort to allies (possibly a solid amount of debuff and mez resistance).
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Not protection, Resistance. I think the debuff resistance would be the bigger boon.
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Originally Posted by Talionis
I doubt they would make the Mez protection a buff, only two sets FF and Sonic have them and this set already has access to both those buffs. If they do something like that then they would really have to change a power in the buff debuff power set to grant it.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Yeah, I do like the idea of Mez Protection being the inherent. Changes things up on the inherent, while giving Sonic and FF greater mez protection. I'd say 6-7 on the Mez Protection would be good.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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I actually really like this idea. Kind of like instead of a taunt a Battle Cry.
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Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Not protection, Resistance. I think the debuff resistance would be the bigger boon.
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I actually had an idea that was vaguely similar, except that its buff/debuff set was also its defense set, and their inherent made their buffing more powerful the more damage they dealt. It's in the AT Thread link in my sig, under "Crusader". Feel free to add your suggestion to the thread, if you like.
Open Archetype Suggestion thread!, Kirsten's Epic Weapon Pools, Feudal Japan, Etc., Alignment specific Rularuu iTrials!
If Masterminds didn't suck, they'd be the most powerful AT in the game.
Not to sound like I'm on a high horse but...alot of you guys' ideas are just...bad. I mean, pairing shields/mez protection with the melee set? Come on...Just outright giving them mez protection as an inherent? No sacrifice needed? *shakes head*
Here's some questions for you:
-How much damage will this AT be capable of? Less than a Tanker?
-You think this AT should have every tool to support a team that a Defender or Corruptor has?
--The above answers might paint yourself into a corner. If the damage is less, how do you expect the AT to survive in melee for any viable amount of time to defeat regular foes?
--If it does more dmg, how can you justify giving them all the tools to aid a team AND mez protection?
--Downgrade the support powers? Then how do you even survive in a team situation at all if you can't rely on your mitigative powers?
-You do realize there are sets that work counter to melee, correct? Force Field has 2 powers, one being its tier 9, that practically eliminates melee for you. The bread and butter of mitigation for Storm is in Hurricane, a -ToHit repel aura.
-You do also realize support sets are balanced vastly different, yes? You can't plop empathy in the hands of a melee focused character and expect it to perform well...or Sonic. Heck, even Kinetic is primarily support and has dang near nil for mitigation for the caster.
There's a lot to be considered here that no one is bothering to address...
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Is having a Controller on your team a sacrifice?|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Come on...Just outright giving them mez protection as an inherent? No sacrifice needed?
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| -How much damage will this AT be capable of? Less than a Tanker? |
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| -You think this AT should have every tool to support a team that a Defender or Corruptor has? |
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| -You do realize there are sets that work counter to melee, correct? Force Field has 2 powers, one being its tier 9, that practically eliminates melee for you. The bread and butter of mitigation for Storm is in Hurricane, a -ToHit repel aura. |
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| There's a lot to be considered here that no one is bothering to address... |
Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Quote:
Damage, same as Corrs. No Scourge. The extra damage is made up for by getting a small amount of Mez Protection.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
Not to sound like I'm on a high horse but...alot of you guys' ideas are just...bad. I mean, pairing shields/mez protection with the melee set? Come on...Just outright giving them mez protection as an inherent? No sacrifice needed? *shakes head*
Here's some questions for you: -How much damage will this AT be capable of? Less than a Tanker? -You think this AT should have every tool to support a team that a Defender or Corruptor has? --The above answers might paint yourself into a corner. If the damage is less, how do you expect the AT to survive in melee for any viable amount of time to defeat regular foes? --If it does more dmg, how can you justify giving them all the tools to aid a team AND mez protection? --Downgrade the support powers? Then how do you even survive in a team situation at all if you can't rely on your mitigative powers? -You do realize there are sets that work counter to melee, correct? Force Field has 2 powers, one being its tier 9, that practically eliminates melee for you. The bread and butter of mitigation for Storm is in Hurricane, a -ToHit repel aura. -You do also realize support sets are balanced vastly different, yes? You can't plop empathy in the hands of a melee focused character and expect it to perform well...or Sonic. Heck, even Kinetic is primarily support and has dang near nil for mitigation for the caster. There's a lot to be considered here that no one is bothering to address... |
Personally, Im not even thinking of replacing any of the melee attacks with shields, that can be obtained in an Epic pool. I'd say their defenses would be the buffs/debuffs that come with the buff/debuff set.
Obviously some sets will be nicer to the meleer than others. I'd probably not even bother giving them Trick Arrow.
BrandX Future Staff Fighter
The BrandX Collection
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Last I heard, Indomitable Will recharged in 360sec and lasted only 90sec and forced you to take the Psionic Mastery pool. Now you tell me what sacrifices a Controller has to make to have complete mez protection or how that pertains to this suggested AT.|
Originally Posted by Tenzhi
Is having a Controller on your team a sacrifice?
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Should be about on par with a Tanker, I'd say. Which is just a tad more than a Corruptor. Scale-wise, that is. For the most part, discounting powersets that I wouldn't use, though if we got into specifics I'd probably suggest some alterations. Making Tar Patch a PBAoE click, for instance. And possibly reduce the radius a bit. I might make the various shields function like Dispersion Bubble rather than be ally-targeted clicks. I might replace Force Bubble with Force of Nature, and Repulsion Field with Disrupt, and possibly melee versions of the two ranged attacks. I might not even have Storm (and I'd almost certainly not have Trick Arrow), but if I did I'd feel the need to make numerous alterations to it. That's often the case in the idea stage of things. |
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Originally Posted by BrandX
Damage, same as Corrs. No Scourge. The extra damage is made up for by getting a small amount of Mez Protection.
Personally, Im not even thinking of replacing any of the melee attacks with shields, that can be obtained in an Epic pool. I'd say their defenses would be the buffs/debuffs that come with the buff/debuff set. Obviously some sets will be nicer to the meleer than others. I'd probably not even bother giving them Trick Arrow. |
AFAIK, one of you don't have a set direction and the others got a broken AT with limited damage and overall imbalances within it. Trick Arrow isn't even that big a problem. Kinetics is more a problem as the only self mitigation it provides is -dmg and a heal. All the while, sets like Radiation go soloing AVs and Dark Miasma tank x8 spawns for teams.
And the reason I'm bringing this all up is because you can fix these inherent problems before hand without huge shifts in how powers work or strange amalgams of powers that may not conceptually match. I've been thinking of this AT for a while now, and while some other ideas can work, it leaves much to be desired for the ATs role and overall balance.
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Who was talking about Indomitable Will? I believe the topic on the table was inherent abilities. Put that together with mez protection and having a Controller on the team.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Last I heard, Indomitable Will recharged in 360sec and lasted only 90sec and forced you to take the Psionic Mastery pool. Now you tell me what sacrifices a Controller has to make to have complete mez protection or how that pertains to this suggested AT.
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
Wow, and if you don't have a controller? Or you're solo? It'd be different if you were talking about a Blaster who has ranged (and high) damage, but this is basically a Tanker with no mez protection or armor (and probably low HP) trying to dispatch foes before they die.
Wouldn't be a problem if you chose the right set (Rad, Dark, Traps) though but it's ignoring the problem sets (Storm, FF, Kinetic) or the edge cases (Emp, Sonic, Thermal).
This entire thread is all baseless speculation and "What if"s. No real numbers have been put forth and little to no set specifics have been mentioned.
Set wouldn't necessarily be included as-is, and in many cases probably shouldn't be. Hell Controller "Dark Miasma" is getting substantial changes, and that set doesn't actively conflict with the AT in the way Forcefield would with a Melee/Support.
Ultimately Numbers would be up to the Devs, Datamining and Beta Testing to determine. For a starting point though I would go with the following:
0.9melee damage mod
0.75buff/debuff mods
Blaster level Hitpoints
Melee sets more or less intact. -Something- to replace Taunt.
Support sets modified to remove/change problem powers, or improve personal survivability/utility, as needed.
Inherent power: Stoicism: 2-4mag protection and 50% resist to Sleep/Hold/Disorient only (just the toggle dropping mezzes). Values would of course require monitoring during testing. The point of the mez protection being so that you're not being constantly detoggled by every minion with a 10% chance to stun on their melee attack, or every AoE mez leveled at your tank that just happens to clip you. It's not intended to allow you to tank.
@Oathbound & @Oathbound Too
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If you're solo in the case of that particular AT which has inherent mez protection at no sacrifice, you have other options (one of which is also inherent). I'm just drawing on the precedent to show that low-grade mez protection as an inherent is well within the bounds of reason.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
Wow, and if you don't have a controller? Or you're solo?
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
What do you guys think?
I have long wanted a Melee Defender. Thinking something like a D&D Paladin or Marshall.
I've tried to twist everything around to make one and they always seem underpowered and hard to play. After think about it, I think this is the type of Archetype that could be created fairly easily because the powers would be easy to port over from other powersets. It would grant a combination that is currently missing from the game.
My first guess would be something akin to the Dominator Assault Secondaries with 4 Defense Powers and 5 attack powers. I'd be fine with as little as 2 Defensive powers in the secondary. I think they would need at least the smashing lethal shield and some form of mez protection.
Sample Secondary:
Shadow Punch
Dark Embrace
Shadow Maul
Murky Cloud
Siphon Life
Obsidian Shield
Cloak of Darkness
Soul Drain
Midnight Grasp