Street Justice and the lameness of Martial Arts
By
Angelxman81,
Posted on: 2011-12-25 21:58 in Suggestions and Ideas
That's what I meant as well. Sorry, didn't mean to confuse.
MA is kind of my baby here, and have made similar appeals in the past. SS is a bit more abstract, pro wrestling is probably the closest we will get to "dramatic fighting with super strength" so long as we cant grapple and throw enemies.
takumi, total agreement. have said very similar posts in the past, so totally on your side on this.
Sam, i see your perspective, but i think you are wrong. outside of eagle's claw, all of ma's moves do have real world antecedents(primarily in korean karate styles) and it bothers me quite a bit that they look so poor in relation to how they really look. and the punches, while nice were clearly an attempt to make ma a more palatable option for people wanting a more street brawley character. that was fine when stj didnt exist, now brawlers have their own set, and i would like martial arts to actually look better for actual eastern martial arts(though savate boxe' francais would fit). they can be better, i have provided, in the past, videos showing tae kwon do practitioners doing the techniques correctly, it needs fixed to look more like them. So i have to strongly disagree, they can look a hell of a lot better. and do not convey their theme properly. We do have one area of agreement, I'd rather we not just see animations ported over, street justice, kin melee and ma occupy different conceptual spaces, so I'd prefer the animations reflect their respective spaces. new ma animations would be drawn from korean or japanese karate or maybe muay thai, kin from Chinese wushu styles and sj either brawling or mixed martial arts.
whoever said thunder kick stinks, agreed, it is the worst of the set, It seems to want to be a roundhouse kick, but the myriad of things it does wrong..well, i have gone over a few dozen times, improper hip rotation, improper knee chambering, horrid stance, the supporting foot doesn't turn fully, but no its horrid, bethesda could make a better animation, we need a good alternate animation for it, go tea kwon do or muay thai for the animation, just make something not hideous.
one thing stood out to me a while a go, i was playing my stj character and she got rib cracker. i know it seems to be primarily liked for it being a knee to the balls, but the reality is, there is another thing to it that makes it so appealing, the sense of momentum in the attack. you don't just knee them, your body motion carries you forward, it looks like you committed to the strike. now, i dont need that entirely in ma, since its actually poor form to let your leg fall like that after a strike, but it had a sense of gravity behind the hit. thunder kick barely looks like you slapped them with your foot, a good roundhouse kick would have had a full hip turn, a full 180 degree turn of the supporting foot, and a horizontal arc for the leg as it strikes. that would give a feeling of force, momentum, weight, that's what ma needs.
paragon, put em on the store if you have to, i will pay more just to get the animations i need to enjoy the game.
one other note, I tend to view MA as more foot and mixed style for animations. given the current animations are apparently based on tai chi chuan, kin melee may be a better place to put the animations for more hand based kung fu styles (always wanted a 7 star praying mantis styled alt anims for that one myself).
Really? I always liked to think of it as a knee to the face as they tried to stand back up after I knocked them down.
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well, my stj char is 7 foot tall, so she tends to have more a knee to the chest(which i like, it seems more muay thai that way), but the whole "knee to the junk" thing was a minor meme back when the devs announced it.
Like I stated, within the current MA animation times, I want multiple strike animations. Like StJ. Straight Punch to Roundhouse Kick. Forward snapkick to left Punch... Stuff like that. Something more than we have now for MA. Because StJ just kicks it's *REDACTED* in sheer appearance.
And I'm one of the people who say Thunder Kick sucks. I literally avoid using that strike whenever I can get away with it (I use it whenever all other powers is on cooldown, and only then.)
As for SS, I support the Entertainment Wrestling animation styles, as an option.
And I wish to repeat, if you want to sell them on the store like costume bits, I will happily purchase them. Just like I did for Street Justice AND Titan Weapons (With which I'm a little disappointed, but that's neither here nor there.)
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Yeah this is why I haven't rolled a StJ toon yet. Every time I team with one and hear those sounds it kills any enthusiasm I've built up since the last time I teamed with one.
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Originally Posted by Kioshi
imo they did a terribad job on StJ's sounds.
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I like the sounds; a good old "thwack!" when punching the bad guy in the face is awesome.
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Originally Posted by Supernumiphone
Yeah this is why I haven't rolled a StJ toon yet. Every time I team with one and hear those sounds it kills any enthusiasm I've built up since the last time I teamed with one.
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@Joshua.
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Was that before or after Freedom, though? Because I remember that discussion and I think it was a long time ago. Right now, that's slowly becoming an acceptable fact, I would personally love to have "animation packs" in the same way as I'd love to have "weapon packs." Paying for the stuff isn't the issue, getting the art team to actually commit to making it is, and if money is what we'll have to use as incentive, then that's fine as far as I'm concerned.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
You know, I once made a thread asking about just this subject; making animation sets that were purchasable and what they'd have to be to be worthwhile. Just plain vanilla alternate animations crammed into current times for some powers? Weapon options added to non-weapon powers and vice versa? Entire themes crafted with the effects of a set? And you know what the majority of the junk that filled that thread was about? How it wouldn't be worth the time, that it wasn't necessary, or speculation on how it'd be overpowered or something... Pisses me off because a lot of good discussion could have been had like, what may need to happen to get wands and guns for sets like Fire and Ice blast and power themes that fit the concept of existing sets. Nope, just filled it with BS and got on my nerves. Wonderful.
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Also, if I have bad taste, then you have worse taste
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Martial arts is kind of lame in comparison but super strength is just plain awesome. Knock a hellion to the moon with knockback blow and tell me that isn't wicked cool.
http://www.virtueverse.net/wiki/Shadow_Mokadara
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*KNOCKOUT BLOW!!!*|
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Martial arts is kind of lame in comparison but super strength is just plain awesome. Knock a hellion to the moon with knockback blow and tell me that isn't wicked cool.
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<Flying Hellion> I can see my house from here!
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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I actually like quite a few of Super Strengths moves. In fact, I can't imagine not using the Footstomp Animation for Footstomp! I love it! |
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Martial arts is kind of lame in comparison but super strength is just plain awesome. Knock a hellion to the moon with knockback blow and tell me that isn't wicked cool.
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For me it's mostly wanting to see MA and StJ animations brought across to each other. Though I wouldn't mind a few SS animations given a martial arts feel to them.
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i get that with crane kick, i see how far across the street my crane kick makes them fly |
Originally Posted by ShadowMoka
Martial arts is kind of lame in comparison but super strength is just plain awesome. Knock a hellion to the moon with knockback blow and tell me that isn't wicked cool.
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in atlas i have launched people very far with my incarnated out namesake. jump kick , the pool power, gets some serious hang time too, i put force feedbacks on that one, and spidey/nightcrawler kick people into orbit.
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well, i would like to get an honest opinion out of you, do you really think the current MA animations actually represent martial arts well? You mention that you like them for some of your characters, but compared to what you might see in martial arts films, or fighting games, or even other superhero themed games, do you really think they represent the techniques well? |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Also, if I have bad taste, then you have worse taste |
Im biased, i trained in tang soo do for over a decade,and im a major martial arts movie/game/sports/books nerd so to me the mistakes are obvious and glaring and really tear me out of it, but i know you had issues with titan weapons, that some of the animations bothered you. do you think that thunder kick is a good roundhouse kick, or that the weird intro outside kick on crippling axe kick works?
I like storm kick, and crane kick is a passable side kick, if prefer they hit with the outside edge of the foot rather than the flat of it, and the chambering could be better, and the y could show more motion of the hip when they strike, it stays largely still, cobra strike is a passable palm heel strike, but I just keep wishing they were a bit truer to form. we dont really shoot lightning out of our hands, or throw stone punches, but the set is pretty heavily a karate/tae kwon do set, and it just does some bad stuff. so do you really think they do them justice?
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Of course not! Not in the slightest. I have been trained in Wing Tsun (somewhat) so I do know what an actual martial art looks like, and City of Heroes Martial Arts ain't it. But my question here is... So what? Assault rifle is weird beyond belief, Broadsword swings like a baseball bat, Titan Weapons hates your spine, Dual Pistols is replete with more unnecessary twists than an M Night Shyamalan movie and Haymaker isn't a haymaker. "Authenticity" is not something I've ever had the impression that City of Heroes is striving for. That and realism just are not intentional goals. When they happen, it's accidental, and when they don't, that's just how things go.|
Originally Posted by rian_frostdrake
well, i would like to get an honest opinion out of you, do you really think the current MA animations actually represent martial arts well? You mention that you like them for some of your characters, but compared to what you might see in martial arts films, or fighting games, or even other superhero themed games, do you really think they represent the techniques well?
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To my eyes, Martial Arts is cool irrespective of how accurate it is to any real life martial art. The few times I've used it, as a point of fact, I've used it to represent fast hand-to-hand combat, and almost never actual real martial arts. I used it on my fast kicking robot long ago inspired by Rook from Rise 2: Resurrection and I used it on my 600-year-old transcended kung fu master who's about as realistic as Jackie Chan sliding down the Willemswerf building's sloped glass in Who Am I? I used to use it for my action school girl, but replaced it with Street Justice because I laughed my *** off at a tiny little girl using those painful-looking attacks, and I had it on my Ghost in the Shell/Battle Angel Alita inspired human-looking cyborg, who eventually swapped over for Super Strength because I could now have a hero using that who wasn't a Tanker. Years ago, I had a concept for a character who had an ability reminiscent of a video game quicksave, allowing him/her to return to a previous save upon getting hit and try something else to dodge the attack. That will likely be Martial Arts, as well, if it's not Dual Blades. That remains to be seen.
No, Martial Arts is not realistic and, for the most part, isn't even logical. But it's still damn cool and I honestly don't need it to be Street Justice for me to like it.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Now see...Im not looking to turn MA into StJ. Or StJ into MA. I just want to mix and match my favorite animations from both sets into one.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Of course not! Not in the slightest. I have been trained in Wing Tsun (somewhat) so I do know what an actual martial art looks like, and City of Heroes Martial Arts ain't it. But my question here is... So what? Assault rifle is weird beyond belief, Broadsword swings like a baseball bat, Titan Weapons hates your spine, Dual Pistols is replete with more unnecessary twists than an M Night Shyamalan movie and Haymaker isn't a haymaker. "Authenticity" is not something I've ever had the impression that City of Heroes is striving for. That and realism just are not intentional goals. When they happen, it's accidental, and when they don't, that's just how things go.
To my eyes, Martial Arts is cool irrespective of how accurate it is to any real life martial art. The few times I've used it, as a point of fact, I've used it to represent fast hand-to-hand combat, and almost never actual real martial arts. I used it on my fast kicking robot long ago inspired by Rook from Rise 2: Resurrection and I used it on my 600-year-old transcended kung fu master who's about as realistic as Jackie Chan sliding down the Willemswerf building's sloped glass in Who Am I? I used to use it for my action school girl, but replaced it with Street Justice because I laughed my *** off at a tiny little girl using those painful-looking attacks, and I had it on my Ghost in the Shell/Battle Angel Alita inspired human-looking cyborg, who eventually swapped over for Super Strength because I could now have a hero using that who wasn't a Tanker. Years ago, I had a concept for a character who had an ability reminiscent of a video game quicksave, allowing him/her to return to a previous save upon getting hit and try something else to dodge the attack. That will likely be Martial Arts, as well, if it's not Dual Blades. That remains to be seen. No, Martial Arts is not realistic and, for the most part, isn't even logical. But it's still damn cool and I honestly don't need it to be Street Justice for me to like it. |
If they just made it so MA could use StJ animations, Id use a MA Scrappers. Same in reverse.
However, I think there's room in making the animations usable by both, and then letting people decide which set's mechanics they like best, since they're pretty even as it is in terms of damage.
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The only powerset that I think desperately needs new animations is broad sword. I tried creating a broad sword character after the titan weapons characters, because stalkers can't have titan weapons, and the animations are all so lame. it's like every single ability is the exact same animation of swinging downwards. it's that lame.
If there are any powersets that get the makeover treatment, that needs to be first on the list. Compared to everything else in the game it looks like it's still in the beta stage for animations. And I know that sounds incredibly rude and mean but I'm trying to be honest.
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Oh I agree that Broadsword could use some new animations, but I dont think that means it needs to put this suggestion on the backburner.|
Originally Posted by Party_Kake
The only powerset that I think desperately needs new animations is broad sword. I tried creating a broad sword character after the titan weapons characters, because stalkers can't have titan weapons, and the animations are all so lame. it's like every single ability is the exact same animation of swinging downwards. it's that lame.
If there are any powersets that get the makeover treatment, that needs to be first on the list. Compared to everything else in the game it looks like it's still in the beta stage for animations. And I know that sounds incredibly rude and mean but I'm trying to be honest. |
Though, would giving BS some new animations increase it's popularity?
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Only two powers in the set swing downwards - Hack and Head Splitter.
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Originally Posted by Party_Kake
The only powerset that I think desperately needs new animations is broad sword. I tried creating a broad sword character after the titan weapons characters, because stalkers can't have titan weapons, and the animations are all so lame. it's like every single ability is the exact same animation of swinging downwards. it's that lame.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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then that is the difference between our viewpoints. I want martial arts to look like martial arts, or at least a reasonable facsimile that we see in movies, and see no reason why it shouldn't. the other power-sets you mentioned are either working with an existing fantasy vision they are consistent with (titan weapons, dual swords and dual pistols looking like soul calibur and hong kong action films) or are also legitimately bad animations i have asked for being added to as well(in the case of broadsword)..or something i have no idea of how it looks right or wrong so cant have much opinion on (assault rifle).|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Of course not! Not in the slightest. I have been trained in Wing Tsun (somewhat) so I do know what an actual martial art looks like, and City of Heroes Martial Arts ain't it. But my question here is... So what? Assault rifle is weird beyond belief, Broadsword swings like a baseball bat, Titan Weapons hates your spine, Dual Pistols is replete with more unnecessary twists than an M Night Shyamalan movie and Haymaker isn't a haymaker. "Authenticity" is not something I've ever had the impression that City of Heroes is striving for. That and realism just are not intentional goals. When they happen, it's accidental, and when they don't, that's just how things go.
To my eyes, Martial Arts is cool irrespective of how accurate it is to any real life martial art. The few times I've used it, as a point of fact, I've used it to represent fast hand-to-hand combat, and almost never actual real martial arts. I used it on my fast kicking robot long ago inspired by Rook from Rise 2: Resurrection and I used it on my 600-year-old transcended kung fu master who's about as realistic as Jackie Chan sliding down the Willemswerf building's sloped glass in Who Am I? I used to use it for my action school girl, but replaced it with Street Justice because I laughed my *** off at a tiny little girl using those painful-looking attacks, and I had it on my Ghost in the Shell/Battle Angel Alita inspired human-looking cyborg, who eventually swapped over for Super Strength because I could now have a hero using that who wasn't a Tanker. Years ago, I had a concept for a character who had an ability reminiscent of a video game quicksave, allowing him/her to return to a previous save upon getting hit and try something else to dodge the attack. That will likely be Martial Arts, as well, if it's not Dual Blades. That remains to be seen. No, Martial Arts is not realistic and, for the most part, isn't even logical. But it's still damn cool and I honestly don't need it to be Street Justice for me to like it. |
martial arts is something that can look better, as in the case of street justice, but simply needs to have animations added that are consistent with the theme they are supposed to show. that is the thrust of the whole thread. martial arts started with animations that were about par with the animations we got at the launch of the game, not great, but they worked if you squinted. then they completely replaced storm kick with something that looked a great deal better and animated faster. Then, to my quite public glee, we got alternate animations and martial arts even got them. My enthusiasm was slightly tempered because the animations seemed to have been made to appease those who wanted a street fighting set rather than to fit in the theme of an eastern martial art, but that was fine, because eventually we would get quality eastern martial arts animations , and then we never did. and those that wanted a street fighting set got their set, and its animations were really good, so I have to ask, can we get Martial arts animations as well, we could really use some good ones for players who want an authentic looking set of animations.
Will the new animations be "realistic"? no. Combat in any game, let alone an mmo is going to be several layers of abstraction from actual fighting, but street justice shows that they can make a set with a well realized theme if they try(titan, pistols and blades do as well) whereas martial arts really needs ones of the same quality. not the same type, i certainly don't want more brawling animations for martial arts, i just want GOOD animations that follow the correct theme.
(had to double check that i didn't accidentally endorse the marital arts)
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The sound effects for StJ are excellent in my opinion. Not like Titan Weapons, where they are really underwhelming, and not like the sound effects for Kinetic Melee, which really have prevented me from playing a character with that set.
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Originally Posted by Forefinger_
I like the sounds; a good old "thwack!" when punching the bad guy in the face is awesome.
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my lil RWZ Challenge vid
They make an alternate MA (And SS) animation set, using the newer techniques (a la Street Justice), using the same animation timing, I would happily buy it.
Of course. That would be the best thing ever.
I don't expect Crane Kick to get a 1.548 animation for it's 1.848 animation attack.
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