Base license and items for sale please
By
Cathulhu,
Posted on: 2011-12-16 20:25 in Suggestions and Ideas
I'm not surprised there is no base license. The devs have gone out of their way to make it difficult for us to create solo SG's. Not having a base license is an incentive to Prems to invite VIP's into their SG's or pay for a subscription.
Of course Prems can easily avoid paying rent by simply not keeping the following items in their bases
Storage Items (per bin) 100 prestige
Auto-Doc / Tree of Wonders 100 prestige
Combat Logs / Contemplation Charts 100 prestige
Robo-Surgery / Spirit Signal 100 prestige
Advanced Worktable / Advanced Forge 100 prestige
Expert Worktable / Expert Forge 100 prestige
Robotic Fabricator / Flames of Hephaestus 100 prestige
Radiation Emulator / Enchanting Crucible 100 prestige
Linear Accelerator / Arcane Crucible 200 prestige
Supercollider / Mystic Crucible 300 prestige
For example Teleporters don't cost any rent. One can buy the worktable to craft the teleporter, then sell the worktable. When rent comes due you don't get charged for the worktable because it isn't there.
The devs are well aware of where base interest lies because the base community has been providing that information for years.
I just came on here to express my wish for a base license, pre-made bases and the ability to purchase other base items and to let them know I won't subscribe and do as you are indicating to get those items. My reason for saying that is because I feel your scenario is no longer relevant because it all changes when you can add a price sticker. If they choose not to do it, then I get to keep more of my money to do other things as my current access keeps me happy enough. I thought they would like to know what Premium players are willing to pay for and here I am. /shrug
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Originally Posted by Tutelary
I just came on here to express my wish for a base license, pre-made bases and the ability to purchase other base items and to let them know I won't subscribe and do as you are indicating to get those items. My reason for saying that is because I feel your scenario is no longer relevant because it all changes when you can add a price sticker. If they choose not to do it, then I get to keep more of my money to do other things as my current access keeps me happy enough. I thought they would like to know what Premium players are willing to pay for and here I am. /shrug
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You can believe whatever you like. The fact still remains that the devs decided before Freedom launched that unlimited base access is an incentive to get players to subscribe to the game.
The devs have also maintained the position that SG's/bases are supposed to be used by multiple players, and they've gone out of their way to make solo SG's difficult to create.
1. Premium players must invite a VIP into their SG if they build a base that incurs a monthly rent, or they can pay a sub fee.
2. The devs have flat out told us less than 60 days ago that if they ever added a feature that allowed us to send SG invites via email that they would not allow us to send SG invites to our own characters.
3. After 8 years we still have to either use a second account, or get a friend to help us invite our own characters into personal SG's
And nowhere did I imply that the devs aren't interested in knowing what their customers are willing to pay for. The base community encompasses all players both VIP's and non subscribers.
That being said there are many examples of things players have said they'd be willing to pay for but the devs have said in one way or another that they aren't going to allow. They aren't motivated by nickel and diming the players.
In the meantime while you are trying to change the devs minds, you can use the info I've tried to provide you with to make it easier to build your base.
So, anyways, to the devs. I would pay for pre-made bases, buying larger plots, buying power and control units(80-150ea depending on capacity), storage items(80 points each), etc. I would not mind paying a $2/month license fee to use bases but am not looking to do the subscription and I don't foresee any personal spaces becoming available anytime soon, if at all. As bases stand now, they are not worth a subscription price to me but you could get me to pay more by piecemealing it various content.
There is another option, you could just buy more storage space; salvage, recipies, I think you can even buy more vault space. and those would apply to all toons on your account. That would acctually be a better deal in the long run, if you're going to pay SG for storage purposes.
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This worked contrary to their intent for me. It was a disincentive and source of annoyance when we found out we couldn't pay base rent with the millions we've earned in past years, unless we paid real money to sub to the game. So much for appreciating past customer loyalty.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
The fact still remains that the devs decided before Freedom launched that unlimited base access is an incentive to get players to subscribe to the game.
The devs have also maintained the position that SG's/bases are supposed to be used by multiple players, and they've gone out of their way to make solo SG's difficult to create. |
We've existed as an Sg since CoV rolled out, with a smaller associated hero Sg prior to that. If the solo bases are such a concern, lift the restriction on those bases with multiple accounts.
Meanwhile, being shoved in the direction of paying a sub in order to pay pretend rent smacks of marketing extortion. Some of us who no longer wish to sub are going to resent any such efforts.
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First off no matter what the devs do, it will always act as a disincentive to some portion of the player base. The devs will never be able to make everyone happy.|
Originally Posted by Marsquake
This worked contrary to their intent for me. It was a disincentive and source of annoyance when we found out we couldn't pay base rent with the millions we've earned in past years, unless we paid real money to sub to the game. So much for appreciating past customer loyalty.
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Second the devs have always maintained that their first priority is the VIP's. Freebs and Prems are not getting unrestricted access to the game.
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| We've existed as an Sg since CoV rolled out, with a smaller associated hero Sg prior to that. If the solo bases are such a concern, lift the restriction on those bases with multiple accounts. |
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| Meanwhile, being shoved in the direction of paying a sub in order to pay pretend rent smacks of marketing extortion. Some of us who no longer wish to sub are going to resent any such efforts. |
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That's stating the very obvious. It's also missing the point. Going "free to play" does not seem to mean the same to this dev team that it does in more general usage. The sub base was shrinking before the conversion and the intent was to renew interest in those who had lapsed subs. They also touted how important it was for them to show their appreciation for those who had invested in the game in years past.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Boo hoo. You are getting to play for free. Before Freedom launched you didn't get any access if you let your sub expire. The devs don't owe non subscribers anything, so please feel free to resent whatever you like.
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That's not what it looks like to me as someone interested in what's new in the game. The current model has the worst aspects of chopping up features of a game to sell piecemeal, while at the same time maintaining it's declining sub base's entitled status. That base wasn't enough to keep the game going, but they are vocal, so why not give them what they want?
It was interesting that even forum access wasn't available for returning players initially. In the age of massive social media, Paragon thought posting here was a high privilege. Big mistake and again not a big incentive to sub. Alternative forum and discussion sites are easily found, most way more entertaining than this one. The purging of the Comics Culture section was one of the factors that drove me away into the arms of other media sites covering popular culture. The powers that be here didn't seem to understand or care that it was the sense of community that made those discussions interesting. That sense was gutted.
Just from a customer service perspective, not allowing returning players to discuss and ask questions was a dumb move. How many took a look and went away again, shaking their heads at another tone deaf decision.
So again, obviously the devs are not obligated to give me and others who took a second look anything, but then they aren't the best business decision makers. Time and again they miss some issue that seems minor to the vocal fanbase, but it's enough to make someone say "I choose not to spend my money here."
P.S. You are in denial if you don't think that the servers are littered with hundreds of dead SGs. Most who came back to try the game as a "premium" (misnomer, I think) did not expect to have to broadcast for a "VIP" (some nice, some with the entitled complex I remember well) to come pay rent with virtual money you already have but are not allowed to use. This kinda awkwardness and clunkiness in how game systems are handled again points to the hamfisted way the game has been handled.
You stressed yourself that the devs wanted to avoid exploitation of solo SGs. We had our remaining VIP paying our fake rent, til he let his sub lapse. I've also bought items since returning, so I'm not playing for free. Instead of encouraging returning players to spend money and to supplement sagging subs, we get players like you sneering. Counterproductive it seems.
1. No not consulting the players was the smart move. It completely eliminated the drama that discontented rabble-rousers would try to drum up.
2. Dead SG's don't have a problem with rent because there are no members playing the game anymore. That's why their dead. If it has even one member playing it's still active.
3. Players that aren't subscribing aren't spending money here anyway except on the occasional microtransaction so it's no big loss if they stop playing. NCSoft new this was going to happen and decided it was worth it.
And you are in denial if you think the restriction on bases has more financial impact than the chat restrictions on Free and Premium accounts. The money they might lose over this rent issue is pocket change compared to the amount they lose over chat restrictions, and they've made it crystal clear they aren't budging on that. So these little threats that people will quit over the rent issue isn't even a blip on the radar. They're making money hand over fist and it more than covers the loss.
I imagine, from what I've gathered, that bases might be getting an upgrade or some sort of revamp in the future, so Iunderstand why there wouldn't be a "license" available for a system that may get overhauled (or not) in the future.
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We've heard things like that several times over the years. So often that I've given up hope of ever seeing anything happen. That being said, since I have no faith it will ever occur I'll be thrilled with whatever we do get if it does get overhauled.
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Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
I imagine, from what I've gathered, that bases might be getting an upgrade or some sort of revamp in the future, so Iunderstand why there wouldn't be a "license" available for a system that may get overhauled (or not) in the future.
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Well, we had no faith that power color customization would ever happen - and it finally did.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
We've heard things like that several times over the years. So often that I've given up hope of ever seeing anything happen. That being said, since I have no faith it will ever occur I'll be thrilled with whatever we do get if it does get overhauled.
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Did we ever think we'd get free item rotation and placement in bases? No. But did it happen? It certainly did.
These things take time. Lots of time. Especially when it is a system designed by a programmer who is no longer with the company who, as I understand it, didn't really leave notes. So it will take triply long to develop/fix/improve.
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i agree with voodoo girl on this, the devs do want to do more with bases but they have said that the code originally used on the base system is extremely old and fragile and almost every time they try to make changes to it, it breaks something|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Well, we had no faith that power color customization would ever happen - and it finally did.
Did we ever think we'd get free item rotation and placement in bases? No. But did it happen? It certainly did. These things take time. Lots of time. Especially when it is a system designed by a programmer who is no longer with the company who, as I understand it, didn't really leave notes. So it will take triply long to develop/fix/improve. |
i still have hope that base stuff is coming, but as the devs have mentioned it will take time because of how ancient and fragile the code they have to work on is
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To be honest I wouldn't list the power customization in there because whenever they did say anything on that topic they always said it was a project that would take a long time and resources to complete. I recall one dev (I forget who) that said if they stopped working on everything it would still take over a year to get just power customization done.|
Originally Posted by VoodooGirl
Well, we had no faith that power color customization would ever happen - and it finally did.
Did we ever think we'd get free item rotation and placement in bases? No. But did it happen? It certainly did. These things take time. Lots of time. Especially when it is a system designed by a programmer who is no longer with the company who, as I understand it, didn't really leave notes. So it will take triply long to develop/fix/improve. |
Not like bases where hints have been dropped that big things were coming and nothing ever happened. Like the "all your bases belong to us" issue where nothing came of it.
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Originally Posted by Necrotech_Master
i agree with voodoo girl on this, the devs do want to do more with bases but they have said that the code originally used on the base system is extremely old and fragile and almost every time they try to make changes to it, it breaks something
i still have hope that base stuff is coming, but as the devs have mentioned it will take time because of how ancient and fragile the code they have to work on is |
Fine start from scratch with a completely new system and when it's ready rip out the old base code and add the new stuff. Then give the Super Leaders of existing bases credit towards however the new feature works on base building so they don't lose years of accumulated resources that were spent creating their old bases.
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"rip out the old base code and add the new stuff" |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Fine start from scratch with a completely new system and when it's ready rip out the old base code and add the new stuff. Then give the Super Leaders of existing bases credit towards however the new feature works on base building so they don't lose years of accumulated resources that were spent creating their old bases.
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A better solution would be to have a new sort of base, let call it an HQ for this discussion. A SG could have both a base and an HQ. The HQ would have functionally the same benefits as a base (TP to zones, Med Bay, Storage, etc) as well as possibly new benefits for example; Personal storage lockers, 100% health Resurrection bays, A single Transporter that can handle all zones instead of just 2, PvP and so forth.
This solves the following problems that a forced change over would create.
1) Loss of 100's of hours of art work in fantastic base designs. For some the current base system is a canvas for their creativity and just as some artist refuse to make a transition to newer and 'better' mediums some base builders will refuse to do so.
2) Loss of stuff in storage. If the Devs try to transfer items in storage bins to a new base then they are just asking for a train wreck. Salvage bays would need to take into account the fact that some still have up to 1000 "base salvage" items in them. Permission levels to keep new members from taking enhancements must be maintained. Billions if not trillions of influence could well be sitting in some of these bins. A single error could well cause either loss of items, Duplication of items, Item access granted to those who should not have it, or loss of access to those who should. An HQ system would allow the SG members to move the stuff when, and where they wanted it.
3) If any MAJOR BUGs crop up in the first few weeks the new HQ system goes live, then shutting it down doesn't cause a major problem for the players. They can continue to use their old base with no QoL decrease. Such bugs could include HQs locking people out, HQ items attacking people, transporters dropping people into random PvP/Hazard zones, and Storage Bins that allows players to duplicate items. And yes, most if not all of these bugs have occurred in the past.
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Originally Posted by Cathulhu
2) Loss of stuff in storage. If the Devs try to transfer items in storage bins to a new base then they are just asking for a train wreck. Salvage bays would need to take into account the fact that some still have up to 1000 "base salvage" items in them. Permission levels to keep new members from taking enhancements must be maintained. Billions if not trillions of influence could well be sitting in some of these bins. A single error could well cause either loss of items, Duplication of items, Item access granted to those who should not have it, or loss of access to those who should. An HQ system would allow the SG members to move the stuff when, and where they wanted it.
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You've forgotten to consider SG's owned by players who are not currently playing when and if the changes get made. How much time should the devs give absent players to return and get their affairs in order? Or should they run two completely separate base systems indefinitely.
From the resistance the devs have been putting up over letting players make solo SG's/bases, I doubt the latter is likely to happen.
On top of them there will be the procrastinators who will screw themselves over by putting off cleaning out the loot from their old bases before the system is removed, and they'll come here with their rage quit posts about how unfair it was, and they didn't know the deadline, yadda yadda yadda.
There's all kinds of variables to consider.
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No I have not forgotten, and it is one of the reasons for my HQ proposal. When that player returns after 5 year they will still see their old beloved base and home just the way they remember it instead of finding it burned to the ground and replaced with Generic Base 2.7b. |
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
You've forgotten to consider SG's owned by players who are not currently playing when and if the changes get made. How much time should the devs give absent players to return and get their affairs in order? Or should they run two completely separate base systems indefinitely.
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By all means run it indefinitely.
*Why close down a base that some artist has spent years building and crafting?
*Why force players who hate to build bases and want to do missions to build a new 2.0 base when the old base that a former SG member built does what they need?
*Why risk all the problems of trying to close down and MERGE an old fragile system with a new one?
YES! Run 2 separate systems! The old system works well enough for many players. Don't throw away something that works.
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
From the resistance the devs have been putting up over letting players make solo SG's/bases, I doubt the latter is likely to happen.
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If the devs are truly concerned about doubling the storage potential then they have at least 1 option that for the most part is already coded, tested and working and would maintain most of the advantages of the system I propose.
Simply put, IF a SG wants to build an HQ then the leader goes to City Hall and chooses to turn the old base into a "Historical Monument". This would set the capacity for all storage bins to 0, or a low enough number for Dev comfort. You could remove items, but not add any more. This code already exists and is in use too this very day with the current Salvage Storage bins. Most people don't know that salvage bins used to hold 1000 items. I have one with 922 items but a limit of 30 (922/30)
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Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
On top of them there will be the procrastinators who will screw themselves over by putting off cleaning out the loot from their old bases before the system is removed, and they'll come here with their rage quit posts about how unfair it was, and they didn't know the deadline, yadda yadda yadda.
There's all kinds of variables to consider. |
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It seems you just don't read closely. I never claimed they would lose more money from other restrictions or from past misguided moves like the forum changes. Those are your words.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
And you are in denial if you think the restriction on bases has more financial impact than the chat restrictions on Free and Premium accounts. The money they might lose over this rent issue is pocket change compared to the amount they lose over chat restrictions, and they've made it crystal clear they aren't budging on that. So these little threats that people will quit over the rent issue isn't even a blip on the radar. They're making money hand over fist and it more than covers the loss.
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What I said and am saying is that it may benefit them to throw returning players a bone, even if it concerns a minor irritant. They are not obligated to do so, but it makes good sense if they want to reward more returning players for their past loyalty, as they claim they do.
This formula: Pay us real rent ($15/mo) so that you can pay your virtual rent, makes little sense from a marketing perspective. In other words it doesn't play well on any MMO sites and game discussion boards that care to mention this game.
You seem to think that populations of VIPs are rising, but if my home server is an indication of the others, they are declining significantly. Good luck recruiting a so-called VIP subber as they continue the exodus to Exalted. Some will always stay where they developed relationships, others will get discouraged as their friends leave for the exclusive server (you must have seen the threads and posts shivering in disgust and horror at the wave of freebie immigrants coming in).
But if you make a claim like "They are making money hand over fist," I want citation. Unless you back up such statements, it's pure speculation and reflexive, maybe blind, defense of their business strategy.
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I see you missed the point. I never said you made that claim. The Chat restrictions is an example of one of the restrictions that actually has a significant negative financial impact, and the company is standing firm regardless of the lost income. So if they are willing to stand firm on that, then the potential income loss of (let's be generous) say 1,000 or so non subscribers worried about base rent is insignificant.|
Originally Posted by Marsquake
It seems you just don't read closely. I never claimed they would lose more money from other restrictions or from past misguided moves like the forum changes. Those are your words.
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Non subscribers are lucky they get to play at all, and since they aren't spending money to begin with they have no leverage with which to make threats about quitting. It sucks but that's the way playing for free works.
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So first Paragon is making piles of cash, then you say non-subs aren't spending any money. Presumably all that income is from a huge rise in VIPs. Between the migration to Exalted and the lessening presence of subbers on the regular servers, it doesn't seem like a tenable claim, even if you're purely speculating.|
Originally Posted by Forbin_Project
Non subscribers are lucky they get to play at all, and since they aren't spending money to begin with they have no leverage with which to make threats about quitting. It sucks but that's the way playing for free works.
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So your take on the current state of the game seems contradictory to me. Even though you haven't pointed to how you know income has increased, you deny that it comes from returning and free players. Very strange, given that it encapsulates the business model of converting to "free to play".
I'm willing to concede that there may have been an initial spike in spending for the first couple months after conversion. I suspect (since you're speculating, bear with me too) there was a huge drop after that. In my case I bought things like the street fighter set and let the toon languish since. Others may have lost their initial excitement.
So, since we're speculating, consider this. Aion should be safe to mention since it's an NCSoft game. It's future was predictable from the first month of release. The structre of opposing factions artificially balanced on each server, with PvP as endgame, guaranteed a collapsing server/domino effect as populations shrank. It was a near fatal flaw in the game's fundamental design.
CoH is heading down a similar path. Again, it's just speculation, but it may be predictive. If VIPs continue consolidating on a single server, because they don't want to associate with the unwashed masses, the regular servers will become ever more depopulated. Maybe that will be the ultimate state of the game, one restricted server and another for the supposed undesirables. Part of the migration may be a way to get people to get used to leaving their base behind, since there's no current way to migrate what you've built up, and not to rely on base storage functions.
So the new business model that's supposed to act as a backstop to the declining sub base ends up treating the influx of new players and their dollars as unwanted, unruly, undesirables. Meanwhile the hardcore subbing base gets to continue feeling special and coddled by the dev team.
Try to step back a bit and look at the bigger picture, although that may be impossible if you're snug inside the bubble. The way the game is structured at the moment is not a recipe for long term growth or success. Other games have managed to run for many years with a hardcore base of 10,000 to 30,000 players. I think that's where this game is headed, though that's not what NCSoft wants.
There is another possibility as to why bases may not become open for non VIPs (I'm not saying it won't, as I really don't know)...
Bases may eat up a significant amount of resources to allow them to be made by premium accounts who spend $2 for it (which could be a significant number).
Every damned account that makes x amounts of bases could start eating up a large amount of the database and resources.
So, that could be a sensible reason for limiting them.
It's just a possibility. I'm curious about it, really.
@Zethustra
"Now at midnight all the agents and the superhuman crew come out
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
and round up everyone that knows more than they do"-Dylan
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Your idea sounded interesting, but upon consideration I don't think it is valid in the PRESENT tense. Bases were released over 6 years ago, and while "Moore's Law" is at best an approximation, I would be surprised if the cost has not dropped by a factor of 10. Bases have seen little in the way of upgrades since 2005 that would require more power. If anything with the illumination of PvP, which was origionally in bases, they are even less of a drain on the system. Even if bases in 2005 took up $5 of resources per player It is tough to imagine that they would require more than fifty cents in 2011. |
Originally Posted by Electric-Knight
Bases may eat up a significant amount of resources to allow them to be made by premium accounts who spend $2 for it (which could be a significant number).
Every damned account that makes x amounts of bases could start eating up a large amount of the database and resources. So, that could be a sensible reason for limiting them. It's just a possibility. I'm curious about it, really. |
However the Devs seem to be doing at least some work on bases, and if a major overhaul is in the works than your statement may well reflect the future issues they see. Instead it may be a case that "Bases WILL eat up a significant amount of resources... "
Likewise if they are releasing new and improved bases in the future they certainly would not want to set a low price of say $2 for the current base system, then have to endure the flames when they raised the price for the NEW base system to what they are hoping to get, say $4.
Admittedly we are both speculating here, but I do hope their is base love on the horizon
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I'm rather curious about what new types of lighting PVP got?|
Originally Posted by Cathulhu
If anything with the illumination of PvP, which was origionally in bases, they are even less of a drain on the system. |
Bases are a drain on the system in that they are a fully instanced map with multiple types of items being allowed to be placed in the base as well as being moved around.
On top of that, some of those items that can be placed in bases also have storage of various items as well.
All of this is using server resources both in database space for the base, the items in it, their locations and any items that may be stored in those items. On top of that it is using server resources to create an instanced map each time the base is accessed.
The Devs told us at the Player Summit that the base system itself is very fragile. The load it places on the server isn't as minimal as many would like to think.
If the game spit out 20 dollar bills people would complain that they weren't sequentially numbered. If they were sequentially numbered people would complain that they weren't random enough.
Black Pebble is my new hero.
The only thing I really miss as a Premium player is base access. Though, not enough to warrant a subscription. I'm very surprised bases were not broken down into their individual parts and placed in the market. By their design, they fit very well with microtransactions. That is unless that is something down the road and is a time-intensive task. I would definitely pay the $2/monthly like the other licenses and would probably buy individual pieces such as Control and Power items.
I would be surprised is the devs were NOT working on this because, one, it opens up even more options for sale and two, they can gauge the true interest in bases and three, that may result in upgrades so many of us have been asking about for years.
I've seen some player created bases and I think it would be really neat to hold a contest, choose the top 10 or so and sell pre-made bases on the market. Something like 4 teleporter base with 1 inspiration/enhancement/salvage for $5 and an 8 teleporter base with more storage for $10. This would be on an individual character basis not account wide.
All the reading I've done on the forums, I hardly see people mention bases when comparing VIP perks to Premium so hopefully Paragon Studios will lean more toward placing base access and items on the market rather than the selling point of VIP access.
Bare minimum: please give me the $2/month license option for bases. Thank you.