Which is better to take on my brute?
By
all_hell,
Posted on: 2011-12-13 16:36 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
manoeuvres has a larger defence bonuse
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combat jumping has a better def/end ratio
The difference between the def values is relatively small--less than 1 percentage point
It would almost come down to concept and build choice. If I were running a /fa for example, I would find the extra benefits of cj useful. If I were more concerned about helping the team, I would probably go with maneuvers.
There are benefits to going either way, just more benefit for you or for your team.
Words to the wise aren't necessary- it's the stupid ones that need them.
"You're right...I forgot...being constantly at or the near the damage cap is a big turn off. Definitely not worth it."
- Vitality
I take both
From a defense standpoint, Maneuvers is better, and even helps your team. On the other hand, Combat Jumping costs much less end, gives immobilize protection, and provides some combat mobility.
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I do too. Sadly I pretty much take the same pool powers on all my brutes|
Originally Posted by Dz131
I take both
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cj
tough weave
maneuvers
hasten super speed
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That's exactly what I have on all my toons :/|
Originally Posted by all_hell
I do too. Sadly I pretty much take the same pool powers on all my brutes
cj tough weave maneuvers hasten super speed |
Except SS, I use ninja run
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amen!
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Originally Posted by all_hell
cj
tough weave maneuvers hasten super speed |
Wouldn't it be cool if it were harder to choose?
If maybe there was another + res power somewhere?
Or perhaps some other power that was as useful to a brute as the ones above?
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...Where do you get the slots to make running all those worthwile?|
Originally Posted by all_hell
I do too. Sadly I pretty much take the same pool powers on all my brutes
cj tough weave maneuvers hasten super speed |
I mean, sure, CJ, Tough, Weave... yeah, I can work those is. Usually Hasten, although I've left it with only the base slot more often than I care for.
And super speed is personal flavor... I usually go for Super Jump or (now that it doesn't need a prerequisite) Flight.
But I've never had a Brute or Scrapper build where I think I could squeeze the 3/4 slots out of other places to make Maneuvers worth taking.
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....|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
...Where do you get the slots to make running all those worthwile?
I mean, sure, CJ, Tough, Weave... yeah, I can work those is. Usually Hasten, although I've left it with only the base slot more often than I care for. And super speed is personal flavor... I usually go for Super Jump or (now that it doesn't need a prerequisite) Flight. But I've never had a Brute or Scrapper build where I think I could squeeze the 3/4 slots out of other places to make Maneuvers worth taking. |
Out of curiosity, how many attacks do you usually take, and how do you slot them, and why?
I take both whenever possible, and I always take CJ for the added maneuverability in combat.
I will admit though that the boost to survivability that comes with capped defense (or at least 32.5) at the expense of other pool powers sometimes makes me sad.
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cj -- one or maybe two slots |
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
...Where do you get the slots to make running all those worthwile?
I mean, sure, CJ, Tough, Weave... yeah, I can work those is. Usually Hasten, although I've left it with only the base slot more often than I care for. And super speed is personal flavor... I usually go for Super Jump or (now that it doesn't need a prerequisite) Flight. But I've never had a Brute or Scrapper build where I think I could squeeze the 3/4 slots out of other places to make Maneuvers worth taking. |
tough -- 3 to 5 slots depending on how badly I need the set bonus
weave -- 2 slots
maneuvers -- 2 slots
hasten -- 3 slots
super speed -- one slot
So that's only 6 to 9 allocatable slots total.
How many slots do you feel is necessary to make these powers worthwhile?
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One of my favorite things about build puzzles is when I have to make a choice between more than one solution. It seems that brute builds have become more of a solved puzzle than an ongoing one.
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Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
I will admit thought that the boost to survivability that comes with capped defense (or at least 32.5) at the expense of other pool powers sometimes makes me sad.
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That's the thing though. It doesn't seem like "multiple solutions" so much as many factors to one solution.
The prevailing opinion on these forums seems to be that any defense buffing power (with the possible exception of Hover) is pretty much a must have for most melee builds.
CJ = non-negotiable + defense, low end cost, + maneuverability
Tough and Weave = make sacrifices to fit them in if you have to.
Maneuvers = fit it in if you can. both you and your team will benefit.
Sometimes I want to take Presence or Medicine or Concealment for conceptual reasons, but I can't bring myself to "gimp" the build by passing on the mitigation powers. It was even worse before Inherent Fitness.
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Exactly. That's why I'd like some other options.
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Originally Posted by BigBlackAfrica
That's the thing though. It doesn't seem like "multiple solutions" so much as many factors to one solution.
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You should take CJ hands down.|
Originally Posted by hidbyflames
Should i take manuvers or cj cant decide which i will benefit from more on a defense stand point please help?
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CJ is a top priority pick.
It has a negligible endurance cost, a bit of immobilize protection and adds a high level of additional mobility.
Maneuvers is a special case pick, I would not add this to a Brute build unless you already had both CJ & Weave and had a very specific build plan to softcap and manage the additional endurance use.
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I usually just use the base slot on CJ, unless I'm dealing with a set without KB protection.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
cj -- one or maybe two slots
tough -- 3 to 5 slots depending on how badly I need the set bonus weave -- 2 slots maneuvers -- 2 slots hasten -- 3 slots super speed -- one slot So that's only 6 to 9 allocatable slots total. How many slots do you feel is necessary to make these powers worthwhile? |
Tough and Weave need at least 4 slots, like all armor toggles. Preferably 5 slots because of their added endurance cost. Maneuvers would need 4-5 as well, for the same reasons.
Hasten should have 3 slots... but it's my personal "Oh wait, I have this power, don't I?" at the moment. I generally only remember I have it if I'm running out of things to do in combat... which doesn't happen often. As such, I find it's easy to sacrifice those 2 slots to something else.
All the travel powers (excepting Teleportation) are good with just the base slot these days.
Finally, how many attacks I take kinda depends on the power set, but generally I only skip the first power, and maybe taunt (if I can't fit it in.) Attacks usually get 5-6 slots, with 6 being preferred for single target attacks, and 5 for PBAoEs. Taunt just gets the base slot, and any Build Up variation generally gets 3 slots for recharge.
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I typically slot the powers as such:|
Originally Posted by all_hell
cj -- one or maybe two slots
tough -- 3 to 5 slots depending on how badly I need the set bonus weave -- 2 slots maneuvers -- 2 slots hasten -- 3 slots super speed -- one slot So that's only 6 to 9 allocatable slots total. How many slots do you feel is necessary to make these powers worthwhile? |
CJ: lotg+, kismet proc (only if build needs it)
Tough: steadfast res/def, glad armor +def, on some builds there is occassionally another resist power that can be muled for these procs.
Weave: lotg+, lotg def, lotg def/end
Hasten: 1-2 rchg IOs depending on build's total rchg. Base slot rchg IO can be +5'd with enh boosters for higher % to make perma easier.
SS: 1 kb res IO
Maneuvers: lotg+, lotg def, lotg def/end
So for me that's 4-7 slots. Completely worth it for what they give me.
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Yeah, and sometimes I like to put the kismet in there--depending on the build and powersets. If i use a kismet, I try to get it into the build at the lowest level power possible.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
I usually just use the base slot on CJ, unless I'm dealing with a set without KB protection.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Tough and Weave need at least 4 slots, like all armor toggles. Preferably 5 slots because of their added endurance cost. Maneuvers would need 4-5 as well, for the same reasons.
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(3.61 w/ 3 lvl50 IOs vs 3.37 w/ an enzyme and a lvl50 LotG 7.5) & (5.94% vs 5.56%)
Tough would be fine with just a couple/three of ribosomes. But usually I want the +def set bonus which comes with the fourth slot. If I have room I go ahead and use a fifth slot.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Hasten should have 3 slots... but it's my personal "Oh wait, I have this power, don't I?" at the moment. I generally only remember I have it if I'm running out of things to do in combat... which doesn't happen often. As such, I find it's easy to sacrifice those 2 slots to something else.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Finally, how many attacks I take kinda depends on the power set, but generally I only skip the first power, and maybe taunt (if I can't fit it in.) Attacks usually get 5-6 slots, with 6 being preferred for single target attacks, and 5 for PBAoEs. Taunt just gets the base slot, and any Build Up variation generally gets 3 slots for recharge.
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More or less exactly what I slot, minus the glad proc. Usually a SF: KB or res/end for me
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Originally Posted by DreadShinobi
I typically slot the powers as such:
CJ: lotg+, kismet proc (only if build needs it) Tough: steadfast res/def, glad armor +def, on some builds there is occassionally another resist power that can be muled for these procs. Weave: lotg+, lotg def, lotg def/end Hasten: 1-2 rchg IOs depending on build's total rchg. Base slot rchg IO can be +5'd with enh boosters for higher % to make perma easier. SS: 1 kb res IO Maneuvers: lotg+, lotg def, lotg def/end So for me that's 4-7 slots. Completely worth it for what they give me. |
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Yeah, this right here is the issue.|
Originally Posted by all_hell
I get by with just a LotG 7.5 and an enzyme in Weave and Maneuvers. The loss in def is fraction of a percentage point.
(3.61 w/ 3 lvl50 IOs vs 3.37 w/ an enzyme and a lvl50 LotG 7.5) & (5.94% vs 5.56%) Tough would be fine with just a couple/three of ribosomes. But usually I want the +def set bonus which comes with the fourth slot. If I have room I go ahead and use a fifth slot. |
I never plan for, nor use, Hami-Os. Last time I checked, even one of them would be much too expensive for me. (I do not farm. I have no idea how other people can stand to do so.)
And since, last I checked, the only ways to get those are through the STF, LRSF, actually taking on Hami itself, or buying them from the market. There are not options I can really exploit.
Without those, to get the kind of +Resist or +Defense & Endurance reduction I need, requires 4-5 slots.
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I've never really dug it too much either.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
(I do not farm. I have no idea how other people can stand to do so.)
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
And since, last I checked, the only ways to get those are through the STF, LRSF, actually taking on Hami itself...
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
...or buying them from the market.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
There are not options I can really exploit.
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Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Without those, to get the kind of +Resist or +Defense & Endurance reduction I need, requires 4-5 slots.
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The difference between (2 lvl50 def/end IOs + 1 lvl 40 def/end IOs) and (2 lvl50 def/end IOs + 2 lvl 40 def/end IOs) is < 1 percentage point of defense and <= .02 of a point of end per sec.
Also, you could enhancement boosters
Should i take manuvers or cj cant decide which i will benefit from more on a defense stand point please help?