[Counter-proposal] Issue 22 Stalker Improvements

Of the changes proposed here ... only 1 of them do I approve of, after long consideration and weighing of the alternatives.

That one option I approve of is the increase to Stalker Max HP (and I do so unreservedly).



I do not, however, approve of "Titan Weaponizing" the Assassin Strike powers to use dual animations for in/out of Hidden status. Likewise, I do not approve of the proposed Assassin Focus mechanic, on the grounds that it is a "gimmicky" approach to solving the fundamental problems underlying the Stalker AT. It is far too much of an "all eggs in one basket" (ie. Assassin Strike only) approach.

In my opinion, the "aim point" of the animation changes to Assassin Strike and the "combo-ish" stacking of Assassin's Focus are (unfortunately) misplaced. I do however think that trying to normalize the animation times of the various Assassin Strike animations in all the primary powersets is a worthwhile goal, so that there aren't primary powersets that are "advantaged" by having a faster (or slower?) Assassin Strike power.



What Assassin Strike really needs is a means to reduce its Interrupt Time. This could either be accomplished by allowing the Assassin Strike powers in all of the primary powersets to slot Interrupt Reduction (and make use of it) ... or by converting the Assassin's Focus buff effect into being a stackable +100% Interrupt Reduction Buff to Self so as to reduce Interrupt Time not only on Assassin Strike, but also on the Snipe powers available through Mace, Mu and Soul Mastery.

3 second "normalized" Assassin Strike animation time (all powersets), with 2 second Interrupt duration

• 0 charges of Assassin's Focus: 2 sec Interrupt
• 1 charge of Assassin's Focus: 1 sec Interrupt
• 2 charges of Assassin's Focus: 0.67 sec Interrupt
• 3 charges of Assassin's Focus: 0.5 sec Interrupt

7.33 to 8 sec Snipe power animation times (Mace, Mu, Soul Mastery), with 6 second Interrupt duration

• 0 charges of Assassin's Focus: 6 sec Interrupt
• 1 charge of Assassin's Focus: 3 sec Interrupt
• 2 charges of Assassin's Focus: 2 sec Interrupt
• 3 charges of Assassin's Focus: 1.5 sec Interrupt

The "rules" for building up Assassin's Focus can even follow the Street Justice model of making every single target attack except for Assassin Strike in the Stalker primary powersets grant charges to Assassin's Focus when those powers Critically Hit, up to a max stack of 3 charges. The duration on the charges of Assassin's Focus could be set to be something longer duration than what Street Justice uses for its Combo system, so there isn't quite as much "use it or lose it" pressure. I'm thinking something on the order of 30 seconds duration on the Assassin's Focus charges, so that you could "bank" them from spawn group to spawn group, and have enough time to maneuver into an optimal position before opening up on the next group of hostiles.

Note that making the granting of charges of Assassin's Focus dependent upon Critical Hits ... whether In or Out of Hidden status ... will mean that in Team situations, Assassin's Focus will typically be earned faster due to the higher chance to Critically Hit when near Teammates. It also means that the "guaranteed Critical Hit from Hide" would automatically grant a charge of Assassin's Focus to single target primary powerset attacks other than Assassin Strike when they are used, which could create some interesting Edge Case scenarios for alternative sequencing of Assassin Strike in an attack chain would be optimal ... such as when dealing with Auto-hit Damage Attacks that are essentially run by Toggle Powers, where a No Focus Interrupt makes Assassin Strike a less than optimal opening attack choice (yes, I'm looking at you, TPN Trial...).

Assassin's Focus would be used/consumed/expired by Assassin Strike or by the Mace, Mu, Soul Mastery Snipe attacks to reduce their Interrupt Times. An additional "capstone" benefit could be added such that with three stacks of Assassin's Focus, when using Assassin Strike, your Placate power would be instantly Recharged ... much like how Critical Hits using Concentrated Strike in the Kinetic Melee powerset are (supposed to) instantly Recharge the Build Up power. It is my firm belief that giving Players an additional avenue to being able to use the Stalker's Signature Power of Placate more often, as a "reward" for using a triple Assassin's Focus plus Assassin Strike combination (in addition to the Interrupt Time reduction making the entire combo "useful" during mainline combat, with or without Hide) ... would make the more "frequent" use of Assassin Strike an *appealing* option for more players, because doing so would then directly feed into an opportunity for an immediate follow on combo of Placate plus Tier 9 "finisher" attack for those situations where Assassin Strike on its own is "insufficient" to one-shot defeat a Boss (or higher ranking) Foe.

Assassin's Focus could also be used to make Assassin Strike attacks "meaningful" against Elite Boss and Archvillain/Hero class Foes by applying a Grant Power effect which would cause the Suppression of the Purple Triangles of Doom per charge of Assassin's Focus used in the Assassin Strike. This could be something as simple as 2 seconds of Suppression to PToD per charge of Assassin's Focus (so "stackable" up to 6 seconds with 3 charges), with a "delay window" of double that duration before the Grant Power Suppress can be reapplied to the $Target. So if using a single charge, that means 2 seconds of Suppression with an additional 2 seconds delay afterwards before the effect can be re-applied (usually by another Stalker on the Team/League). If using a triple charge, that means 6 seconds of Suppression with an additional 6 seconds of delay afterwards before the effect can be reapplied. Since this effect operates via Grant Power effect, which involves the $Target casting the effect on themselves, by adding a Effect Does Not Stack From Same Caster into the Granted Power it should be easily possible to prevent this power effect from "overstacking" in ways which cause the permanent disruption of PToD on EB/AV Foes.

Being able to "take down" the PToD on EB/AV class Foes at will, at the Player's discretion ... even for short periods of time ... would be a remarkably powerful ability, which actually "fits in" with the Archetype's theme remarkably well. It would also be something which "no other Archetype can do" ... which would give Stalkers an unparalleled niche role in "dealing with" what can easily be considered the "hardest targets" in the entire game. It also creates a situation where Players can be rewarded for being cooperative and coordinating their attacks with others to maximum effect, due to the interaction of the underlying game mechanics in group situations.

Since the power to "take down" an EB/AV class Foe's PToD *is* such a powerful potential ability ... I would recommend that the Grant Power effect only take place on a Critical Hit when using Assassin Strike with 1-3 charges of Assassin's Focus. Note making this effect contingent upon Critical Hits means that this Debuff has a chance to be applied when using Assassin Strike when NOT Hidden, with a higher chance for it to happen dependent on how many Teammates are "close by" to increase the Stalker's native chance for Critical Hits ... *or* ... can be applied automatically when using Assassin Strike when in Hidden status! I haven't exactly "run the numbers" for an analysis (since I just came up with this idea while writing this post), but it's entirely possible that it may prove "profitable" to a Stalker (and their Team/League) to engage in mainline combat long enough to accrue a stack of Assassin's Focus, fall back out of combat (if possible), gain Hide, and then re-enter combat with a Focused Assassin Strike which in aggregate, over time yields a better "throughput performance" for damage dealt to $Target by engaging in Hit And Fade combat tactics than simply Stand And Slog combat could produce ... even when accounting for the lost DPS of waiting for Hide to Unsuppress to make an "on demand" dropping of PToD reliably happen against an EB/AV.



And speaking of Placate ... can we get an Animation Time Reduction on this power so it takes only 1 second to cast instead of 1.5 seconds? At the very least, reduce the cast time down to 1.17 seconds (to match Build Up) so that there's less of a DPS Penalty associated with using Placate due to time spent not attacking.



If you want Stalkers to do "more damage" than they have (been), and if you want to make Assassin Strike useful in more ways than just for alpha strikes from Hide ... then as Devs you really need to stop trying to find ways to "gimmick" Stalkers to improvement via the game mechanical changes announced at the Player Summit, and instead concentrate on trying to find ways to allow Stalkers to use their signature (dare I say, ought to be Inherent?) powers more often in ways that the Players can CONTROL, so as to create situations where Player Skill are rewarded due to situational awareness and a willingness to adapt to fluid situations ... rather than finding new ways to throw the Random Number Generator into the mix. We don't need "new" game mechanical gimmicks to allow Stalkers to Critically Hit more often ... we need synergistic game mechanics which allow us to use the tools we've already got with greater frequency and under more conditions than we're presently allowed to get away with. If you want to give us a way to "do more Critical Hits" ... find a way to let us use Hide and/or Placate more in order *DO* those Critical Hits "on demand" in response to dynamic situations of gameplay. The "Assassination" effects are already baked into the primary powersets for Stalkers ... just let us USE THEM MORE and you'll see an improvement in not only Stalker damage throughput in datamining, but also an increased appreciation for the tactical complexities of an Archetype that isn't just "Hit Things Till They Faceplant" in ways that are little different from the Scrapper or Brute Archetypes.



Your move, Powers Team Devs.

It's the end. But the moment has been prepared for ...

We have a point of contention then. Blasters, scrappers, brutes etc are not useless 99.9% of the time like stalkers would be under this gimmick proposed by Redlynn and the other gimmick proposed by the devs. Blasters and scrappers may not benefit the majority of time from their inherents, but they do benefit the majority of time from being innately powerful and filling niche roles of their own. Blasters and scrappers fulfill long-term DPS roles and the ability to quickly dispatch minions. Stalkers do not fulfill any role that cannot be replaced entirely by another AT, and the role they are ostensibly designed for is one that is very rare. How rare is the necessity for AoE damage? Hrm?

Also, I think you're using hyperbole or are being intentionally disingenuous if you're saying that Fury doesn't help brutes 99.9% of the time, because it most certainly does.

Indeed. I no longer seek to compare stalkers to scrappers. Scrappers themselves hold a tenuous role at best in team environments. However, they do have a role, and that role exists for the entire game. Scrappers do not suddenly become super-important in rare encounters like they would under Redlynn's proposal. They do, however, remain mildly important in essentially every encounter. That's what I want from stalkers. Other AT's should be able to fight bosses, no doubt about it. But a) bosses should be powerful enough to cause a team-wide threat, b) stalkers should be one of the many tools used to dispatch this team-wide threat, and c) stalkers should be very effective at doing just that.

Not when you're damage capped. Assault and Assault-like buffs affect entire leagues now. It's quite possible for a Brute to reach the damage cap with only a fraction of Fury. The rest of the fury? I guess if your damage gets debuffed...



Proliferation is the answer.

Agree with you there...

Certainly. Hoping the new addition the devs propose helps this.

I do not agree with this entirely. If you specialize the AT's function to be very effective vs bosses in all circumstances (no matter the set or build) then you limit any other application. So this Stalker can now dispatch bosses with extreme ferocity...what does it sacrifice for this? If you say AoE then congratulations, you are requesting Titan Weapons, Fire Melee, Ice Melee, War Mace/Axe, Fiery Aura and what have you to be *BUTCHERED* in their ability to deal with minions and/or nerf sets like Dual Blades, Electric Melee, Spines and Kinetic Melee which can currently dispatch minions just fine.

Either that or hamstring sets like Regen, Willpower, Ice Armor and the like by even lower HP caps (and in the process, favor defensive sets...I still am not a fan of Ninjutsu since you left, btw).

So, what's it gonna be?

Please explain to me how exactly a Stalker with the Dev's proposed changes will not be able to fill the same role on a team as a Scrapper or, for that matter, a Brute. A Stalker has a 10% base critical chance against every foe when they are not hidden. That's twice as much as a Scrapper against minions. Then, with Assassin's Focus, the Stalker gets a Superior damage power that gains even greater critical chance. That will put Stalkers at the top of melee damage, but with the lowest survivability of melee ATs. That's the way it should be.

The things you are talking about, changing bosses to be more powerful and making Stalkers the tool to dispatch them, those things are just not possible. That's making a new game. If you truly hate the way this game works as much as you seem to, then I suggest you play another game. Personally, I have been playing my first Stalker all night - just to compare it to playing a Scrapper. I find it to be more enjoyable already. With the changes, I might not make a Scrapper ever again.

I'm failing to see how someone can read "Stalkers will do more damage" and be like "I want them to not do that, it'll make them better."

I was going to type a long diatribe, but then I read this...

Signed

edit: Please, please, please stop complaining about outlier powerset combos. The fact of the matter is that the entire stalker AT is like a thematic choice. If you want to play a theme character in CoX you are not going to be optimal from a min/max standpoint. The thing that makes CoX enjoyable and playable is that you can be suboptimal and still be successful, allowing one to create and play toons that are fun and different. Lets face it, unless you are a Fire ranged or a SS/Fire/Soul brute or Fire/SD scrapper you are going to be suboptimal and there is really no point of playing the game anymore if your goal is to min/max and you want to be something different.

So what we should do is un-roll back the issue 3 boss changes but apply them at all levels? I have always felt bosses should be tougher or that we have more problem type mobs. The issue is that some of the debuffs when stacked can be completely debilitating where almost no one can hit. Maybe give critters powers more like poison's debuffs instead of crap like darkest night and hurricane.

Sure, but not by much, and not without further destroying the thematic differences between stalkers and scrappers.

There's still plenty of themetic difference. But like many ATs, there's exceptions and thusly it can get lost.

Scrappers will still be the better off tanks (this isn't to say Stalkers couldn't if built for it).

Personally I like the idea of Stalkers becoming the better ST killers period. In that they have the better ST Burst and better ST DPS.

Can a Scrapper have better ST DPS than a Stalker? Yes! If they pick a higher ST DPS combo compared to the Stalkers combo!

But if they pick the same combo, I would like to see the Stalker win out in but the burst (AS) and following DPS.

Yes, it means Stalkers become closer to Scrappers. But that's really the only way to do it with CoH without it screwing things up, while keeping to the Stalker theme, which is more in line with being a ST killer (exceptions of course..and things like ELM with staying hidden through LR will likely continue to make ELM the most awesome on Stalkers).

Perhaps, they should make Stalker more "controllerish" so it's further away from Scrapper? Demoralize is a good start.

The only problem I see is that most people don't pick Stalker because it has awesome controls. They make Stalkers because "assassins" in many games have been labeled as "glass-cannon, damage dealer". Well, they get the "glass cannon" part right but is Stalker the King of melee damage? Nope! And that's where the big problem is.


If you don't want to add more damage to Stalker, what else do you guys propose? I guess we can start by causing Demoralize even out of hide AS? One thing for sure is I want an uninterruptable AS.

Truthfully, when it comes to Demoralize, I've just come to not even worry about it on my Stalkers.

Really, I just wasn't seeing the effect all that often, to the point I was wondering, was it even there!

Well, since they label Stalker as 10/10 Melee Rating, I am pretty sure they are not going for Damage/Control or Damage/Support route to separate Stalker from Scrapper/Brute even more.

Oh I do want to add more damage to stalkers, but what's the point? Single target is useless in this game. It's not about comparing our performance to scrappers, because scrappers have it rough too. It mystifies me why anyone would want stalkers to become clones of scrappers. Oh yay, scrappers are 'better tanks' - fat lot of good that does when scrappers rarely tank. Oh yay, stalkers are 'better ST DPSers' - who cares?

I guess not everyone wants to play a Corr/Defender/Controller? There is still a point in using a melee toon.

This is one of the very few games that allows buff/debuff stack so much to the point that melee/range specialist may not be required.

I don't think everyone in this game is min/maxer. If so, we probably would only see support ATs but the truth is I see plenty Brute/Scrapper/Blaster out there. Some people still like the old-fashion hack&smash and the good old "mage" type of class (Blaster).

On a large team, Stalker's ST specialty may not be appreciated but Stalker also has access to aoe too. A simple BU + Patron AoE still does pretty decent damage. Or if you want an extreme example, you can try Electricity or Spines set.

I constantly get into an argument with a teammate about the very "existence" of Stalker. He thinks the best way to buff this AT is to simply get rid of it and create a Melee/Support hybrid. He is the type of player that no matter what they do for Stalker, he just doesn't care for it. Well, I feel the same way about Tankers too. I don't care how sturdy they are but I just don't like the concept of a Tanker.

We know the dev won't simply get rid of this AT so this "who cares" mentality will not help.

You may be content being the fellow who assassinates entire crowds, but I think this runs wholly antithetical to the concept of the stalker. The issues of the stalker AT run more than skin-deep, so skin-deep changes won't fix them. I'm going to continue harping on about this until everyone sees that modifiers and crits aren't going to do junk to an AT whose existence is superfluous.

Could you spell out the concept?

Pretty simple, really. Precision application of single target damage with low aggro. Evidence: Hide and controlled crits allow precision; our AoEs were by and large removed in favor of AS; and we have Placate and a low threat modifier to minimize aggro.

Dunno about you, but that sounds incredibly boring.

What sets are we suppose to use with that then? Because I want ice wielding Stalkers which will most likely come with a mass PBAoE ice attack...

Harp all you want, but I don't want your theme infringing on mine, which is ambush tactics. Rush the enemy, blind side them and while they're still recovering from the shock, pick them apart with your regular combat powers.

I'm just saying, your concept seems to shoehorn the AT and strips any possibility of proliferation. My theme can accommodate 'precision' and 'power' and leaves the AT open for many possible sets to be proliferated.

I guess this is where we diverge then. Nothing in the AT shows that PBAoEs should be a part of stalker life. In fact, most of the PBAoEs were stripped from power sets. Furthermore, this new resurgence of PBAoEs in stalker power sets shows desperation on the part of the devs to grant legitimacy to stalkers by turning them into scrapper clones.

That said, I made clear in another post (perhaps in the other thread) that stalkers still have room for AoEs in my theme. They just have to trade in single target damage for that.

You know the reverse is also true if they turn Stalker into buff/debuff stacking ATs. So it's either you make Stalker a Melee DPS specialist or you turn them into another Corr/Defender with awesome buffs/debuffs or controls through Demoralize.

Whichever direction they buff, it's going to push Stalker closer to other ATs.

One thing I have to say is that I wish they could have just let Stalker have Stealth and nobody else can have it. This way Stalker will always be unique "enough". Now that everyone has access to stealth, they can easily "skip" this Stalker AT.

Other games "protect" their "assassin class" by restricting "stealth" abilities.

Apparently it is. Because everything in Ice Melee leads up to Frozen Aura, a PBAoE cold dmg attack that also sleeps minions, which would be positively 'Stalker-ish' in every definition of the word.

'Stalker life' really has nothing to do with what a set does, otherwise each melee set would have been altered to accommodate for their AT. That has never been the case so your perspective fails. It fails to fit within the realm of usefulness of this game. It fails to leave concept open ended for player themes. It fails to compromise with team tactics. It fails by clutching to an idealized image of what stalkers once were which never actually existed. And it fails because the only path to your perspective is through impossible means of destroying the game and starting all over for the sake of *one* AT.

First of all, I don't think PBAoEs are anymore geared to 'Scrappers' than they are to any AT that wishes to dispatch foes quickly. You seem to have it engrained in your brain that Stalkers must be some sort of katana wielding ninja that can only reliably impale one foe at a time and that area attacks are simply brute strength and not precise. Well, it takes more precision to hit lots of foes in their weak points at once than it is to aim at one weak point at a time.

And nothing so far has given me the impression that AoE is in your theme. If it were, I don't know why you're bringing up this stuff about AoEs = Scrapper Clone. Because that equation isn't balanced at all.